Farewell, guys! I can't stand FoG2M any more.

[Meyre]

I'm gonna delete the game, as it's so ridiculous to play a medieval game without polearms.

What a funny scene when you see halberds and swords share the same POA against cavalry.

We could have a reasonable new category of "Polearm" that have half the bonus of spears against cavalry and no bonus against foot, while keeping their ability to cancel armor advantages. But there's no.

So goodbye! Let me know when the polearm trait is added, I'll be back at that time.

[1319608056]

e,ok

[SaD-82]

Originally posted by Meyre:

I'm gonna delete the game, as it's so ridiculous to play a medieval game without polearms.

You have no spears and pikes in your game?
That sounds more like a missing-data-problem.
I have them and they do their job.
As for halberds: More of a heavy weapon than a polearm. Which, btw, brings along some advantages and disadvantages in comparison to certain sword units.
But you do you - have fun playing other games.

[Meyre]

Originally posted by SaD-82:

Originally posted by Meyre:

I'm gonna delete the game, as it's so ridiculous to play a medieval game without polearms.

You have no spears and pikes in your game?
That sounds more like a missing-data-problem.
I have them and they do their job.
As for halberds: More of a heavy weapon than a polearm. Which, btw, brings along some advantages and disadvantages in comparison to certain sword units.
But you do you - have fun playing other games.

Spears are spears, halberds are halberds.
For instance, Scandinavian forces could be easily rammed by knights now. But in reality, their tight polearm formation were supposed to be good at beating them.

[zenos]

Halberdierss do get +10 POA in melee against all units except elephants, whereas swordsmen only get bonus POA against certain infantry units.

Being much shorter than pikes, I don't see why halberds should negate a charge by knightly lancers

[SDW1000]

OK..bye bye. lol

[Lothar]

Originally posted by Meyre:

Originally posted by SaD-82:

You have no spears and pikes in your game?
That sounds more like a missing-data-problem.
I have them and they do their job.
As for halberds: More of a heavy weapon than a polearm. Which, btw, brings along some advantages and disadvantages in comparison to certain sword units.
But you do you - have fun playing other games.

For instance, Scandinavian forces could be easily rammed by knights now. But in reality, their tight polearm formation were supposed to be good at beating them.

I disagree with the last one, in fact in history infantry armed with polearms can merely repulse the cavalry(with their own heavy losses), but mostly can not beat the cavalry on the front, the same things already happened in Laupen, Arbedo etc. Several years after the Battle of Arbedo the Swiss switched most of their halberds to pikes. Sometimes the infantry in mixed battle groups armed with both polearms and spears had been defeated decisively by cavalry in the open field(Döffingen, Eschborn etc.)

If you have played the Mount & Blade Warband(Warband is a good simulator in bottom-up theories)you will find the Swadian knights can easily ram over the Rhodok infantry in the open, here's an example: https://youtu.be/nK5P1xZOo-c?si=peLkshGNs4Ith2yO

[Wenzel]

So what you say is simply not true. Halberds (=heavy weapons) and swords DO NOT share the same PoA against cavalry.

MELEE:

• Spears reduce the effect of mtd. swords by 50 (but only if the spears are still steady!) and get 100 PoA themselves (but only if not fragmented!).
  
• Halberds reduce the armor bonus of the knights by 50 if any and get 100 PoA themselves (always).
  
• Swords get 100 PoA themselves but do not affect the knights' armor bonus.

In all cases, add to the massive bonus for superior numbers (cavalry hates being stuck in stready infantry).

In melee, halberds are at least on par with spears when fighting against heavily armored cavalry. I'd even say they're superior, because all of the spear boni are bound to conditions. Swords are a bit worse (50 PoA or 16.5% combat power) compared to spears and halberds.

IMPACT:

• Spears reduce the effect of the incoming lances by 50 (but only if the spears are still steady!) and get 100 PoA themselves (but only if not fragmented!).
  
• Halberds get 100 PoA themselves (always).
  
• Swords have no effect in impact.

So yes, spear-armed troops are slightly superior (50 PoA or 16.5% combat power) defending against charges by lancer cavalry. But that seems totally reasonable to me. A spear is superior in defending against cavalry. It is probably a bit longer (keep that monster=horse away!) and its tip/head is lighter (holding a heavier-headed halberd at a horizontal angle for extended periods of time is exhausting). Swords are useless in impact.

---------------------
Also note that PoA are not the whole picture. Many sword-armed infantry units are medium infantry, whereas spear and halberd infantry is usually heavy infantry (+1 on cohesion checks). Particularly against lancer impacts (-1 on cohesion checks), this bonus helps to prevent (double) drops. I'd argue that the "tightly packed ranks" you mention are rather represented by the unit type (heavy-medium) than by the weapon type. (Also note that most heavy infantry is unmanoeuverable for that reason)
-------------------
Other than that, I think it's better to understand "weapons" in FoG2 as ways of fighting and properties of units, not as weapons per se. But I understand that the game should then use different terms to describe these properties.

If you have a unit that was for the most part armed with halberds and bills and yet still for some reason was known to fend off cavalry in the open (which does sound odd to me if we're speaking of proper battle cavalry - maybe not that common in Scandinavia at that time? In any case all we have is anecdotal evidence), you could represent it as "offensive spear" or keep them as "heavy weapons" and increase their quality so that they have a better chance to withstand a charge? Adding yet more weapons to the game would turn the game more complicated and confusing than it already is.

[SnuggleBunny]

Originally posted by Meyre:

Given more recent posts, you clearly did not delete the game, so enjoy this mod which provides just what you asked for:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1025606#p1025606

[rochrist]

Epic flounce. 10/10

[Groogo]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

Originally posted by Meyre:

Given more recent posts, you clearly did not delete the game, so enjoy this mod which provides just what you asked for:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1025606#p1025606

A very elegant post. Super!