orc den vs dark nights

[Daan-B]

okay, so let's have a civil discussion about the orc den and the dark knights.

alright so in my opinion the darknights overall are better. all the stats i use wil be with the techtree finished

at level one the dark knights have medium armor and a combined hitpoint total of 260 vs the orc dens armor of none and combined hitpoint total of 234. they do similair damage.

at level two the dark knights have medium armor and a combined hitpoint total of 338 vs the orc dens low armor and combined hitpoint total of 390.

level three:
dark knights: 478 hp, medium
orc den: 585 hp, low

level four without specials:
dark knights: 624 hp, high
orc den: 780 hp, low

in my opinion dark knights is better then the orc den at levels 1,2 and 4
at level three the orc den has a big lead in health and the dark knights are still stuck at medium armor, at fourth i think the dark knights take back their win.

but when it comes to the special abilities... The orc den wins with leaps.
the upgrades of the dark knights are pretty weak, the reflect upgrade is more then decent but the rest isn't worth it.
the upgrades of the orcs are great, regen gives them more effective health, the chieftain gives one of them extra health damage and medium armor, and the one giving extra damage is not bad in the slightest.

obviously i should add a phew points.
dark knights are more expnesive then the orc den.
dark knights spawn on a cooldown of 8 seconds aposed to the orcs 12 seconds.
dark knights do less damage at level 1 but more at level 2, 3 and 4 (without specials)

lastly dark knights at level four without special cost 750 gold and have a total of 624 hp
orc dens at level four plus the chieftain ability cost 697 gold and have a total of 910 hp!


the orc den is better if you upgrade them to the max, but at low levels the dark knights win the cake. orcs only start to feel like they can take hits at level 2, and there by no means tanky. at level three they are pretty good though. and with the price difference at level four it is only fair to give the orcs an ability to even out the costs. at which point they definetly win.

so?
what do you guys think?

[Миша]

i didn't see a single mission where knights would be better than orcs. orcs are 3 instead of 2, which means they can block 1,5 times more enemies. and they are cheaper. zombies are even better - they are 5, and you don't need to upgrade them. have beaten main campaign and half of the side missions on veteran with 3 stars and used knights maybe two times, only for fun. no need in them. like in half other towers.

[Urfarah]

Originally posted by Миша:

orcs are 3 instead of 2

That pretty much sums my thoughts on the matter.

But I don't use either of them (because they can't attack flying enemies). I prefer to use offensive towers that can also spawn defenders, like the Bone Flingers, the Specters Mausoleum or the Deep Devil's Reef. Also, the elves seemed initially cool but they ended up being just a worse version of the Deep Devil's Reef so... *shrugs*.

Orcs, knights and elves can work within the right strategy, had to use them to unlock the achievements and still use them on the odd Iron challenge, but there are certainly more well rounded options.

[Daan-B]

Originally posted by Миша:

i didn't see a single mission where knights would be better than orcs. orcs are 3 instead of 2, which means they can block 1,5 times more enemies. and they are cheaper. zombies are even better - they are 5.

in my experience orcs die way to easy. sure 1.5 times the blocking, but if ithey die all the time then it doesn't work.
it feels like they can only really survive if they are upgraded to level 2 and then they still feel frail. dark knights can hold their line even at level 1. and when it comes to cost. a level 1 dark knight is cheaper then a level 2 orc den. and i like my money to go to offense whenever possible.

and if the dark knights do die. then they respawn on a 8 seconde cooldown.

[Daan-B]

Originally posted by Urfarah:

I prefer to use offensive towers that can also spawn defenders, like the Bone Flingers, the Specters Mausoleum or the Deep Devil's Reef. Also, the elves seemed initially cool but they ended up being just a worse version of the Deep Devil's Reef so... *shrugs*.

Orcs, knights and elves can work within the right strategy, had to use them to unlock the achievements and still use them on the odd Iron challenge, but there are certainly more well rounded options.

i understand liking offensive towers that can also spawn defenders. but your comment on more well roudend options doesn't sit well with me.
ya fill a map with orcs and it will suck. but no sane person does that.

barrack units like orcs and knights are there for stall, you need other towers to do the actual damage you make a well roudend defense by adding different towers together. deep devil's reef is good when their aren't many tower slots in a given crossection or path. but i woudn't use them on for instance farm arrays.

as for elves, i don't really consider them a barrack unit. they do more damage shooting arrows at range then in melee. so you wanna keep em out of melee. when you do that they do massive damage. sure they can block if neccessary but they won't stall for long. their best use is as an archery tower that can move. the actual range of the elves is the length you can position them away from their tower plus the distance they can shoot so they have some good range.

i do prefer different offensive towers over elves but they can be quite good in the right circumstance.

[Urfarah]

I understand their purpose. That's not my point. My point is that, in this game, neither of them is needed and that, on top of that, they can't do anything against flying or incorporeal enemies (or ranged enemies without micromanaging) which makes them woefully inadequate for their function. I finished the whole game on Impossible without breaking a sweat and never once I felt the need to use them outside of the obligatory Iron challenges. I can go the whole game without them, easily, even if I don't use any of the dragons. Bone Flingers alone outshines them both by a mile (fast damage, 1 dedicated defender and 1 cannon fodder skelly each 12 seconds for a pittance) and so does the Mausoleum. If I was barred from choosing the Bone Flingers or the Mausoleum in any given stage I would pick the zombies or the trees before I picked the orcs or the knights.

That said, if I was forced to choose between the two, I would go with the orcs 100% of the time. They have 1 extra soldier, the Captain, extra regen (which shines even more if they can be supported by the Orc Shaman) and extra damage upgrades (and are cheaper). The added offensive potential of the Dark Knights, with the 2%/4%/6% instakill is simply not worth it in my experience.

[Daan-B]

Originally posted by Urfarah:

Bone Flingers alone outshines them both by a mile (fast damage, 1 dedicated defender and 1 cannon fodder skelly each 12 seconds for a pittance) and so does the Mausoleum.

that strategy only works if you have those towers at fourth level and buy those upgrades, if you have multiple paths where you need to stall that becomes ridiculously expensive, it bars emergency stalling (with exception to reinforcements) and limits positioning of your expensive damaging towers to the back and mid sections of the map.

[Urfarah]

Hahaha, ok, sure. The strategy that I used to 100% the game on Impossible clearly doesn't work. Must have dreamed that....

oh, no, wait I still have all the achievements, guess it was not a dream after all

[sdshadow]

Maxing out a barrack is not needed at any map (besides the maps, at which you cannot use other towers, like the dwarf king special map).

The money is better invested at other towers.
Upgrading a barrack is a "oh ♥♥♥♥" button if they die. So they respawn with the upgrade.
So Dark Knights win for me all the time.

You can leave them at level 1, only upgrade if they die and you cannot wait 8 seconds.
A dark knight last really long (mostly even if one is dead, before the second die the first respawn).
Orcs die at a few hits at seconds.

Orcs do more damage, but lets be fair: Barracks are for stalling and not for killing things.
Even a fully upgraded Orc Hut does tiny damage compared to a normal tower.

If you have a chokepoint at which you need 3 defenders (the only positive thing about orcs), you can always place a hero that can defend on this spot.
If you really want to use Orcs because of stalling 3 enemies you need them at level two, better level three and then they are way to expensive.

But then your tactic is wrong. Fast enemies or group of enemies should be dead at a few attacks. And for a "oh ♥♥♥♥ there are more then two" you can always place two demons to help your Dark Knights to stall 4 enemies at once.

[Ghin]

Why even bother with orcs? Just get zombies! They're already dead.

[stephanovichthegreat]

I prefer dark knights over orcs simply because they can tank way more hits on impossible. Orcs drop like flies and against the big or ranged units, they barely stand up for a hot second. Dark knights high armor allows them to stand a long time, which is what I need. I can deal with the numbers before they reach a barracks, I just need them to hold enemies. Even at tier 3, the difference in armor is 15% to 60% for orcs and knights respectively. That's simply too much for me too ignore.

When I played on veteran first to unlock impossible for future playthroughs it mattered less. Now though, I only use orcs if it's a challenge that swarms you with lower level enemy types. I might use the reef combo tower once I reach the unlock mission for that, but not sure.

Fresh campaign with impossible start and the game has some challenge when you don't have all of the upgrades. When I completed the campaign and switched to normal, it didn't really matter what I did. Practically everything worked well without much thought.

[Honorable_D]

What towers don't hold up on Impossible? I've just beaten campaign on Normal and despite the Rotten Forest being rated F tier it does quite well...I'd imagine it is absolute garbage on harder difficulties where enemies have more HP though.

[two100meterman]

I don't feel that one is "better", I find that sometimes Orcs are better and sometimes Dark Knights are better. For just a quantity of enemies Orcs are better because 3 > 2. However sometimes there are strong enemies and the Orcs just kind of die too fast whether to aoe attacks or just high damage stuff, this is where 2 Dark Knights hold their own and keep the enemies there longer than 3 Orcs could.

I actually like the Dark Knights upgrades a bit better once maxed due to the chance at 1-hit kills. Overall I've had success on some levels where I decide that 2 Barracks types is what I want (opposed to 2 Archers or 2 Artillery or 2 Mage) and I find combinations are generally better than single types. If there is a junction with many spots to build towers I've even gone 2 Barracks and even though 6 units is a clear winner over 4 units, I find one Dark Knight and 1 Orc is better than 2 Orc Barracks or 2 Dark Knight Barracks. 5 units is enough and then I get the advantages of being able to fight strong enemies, survive long enough while DKs are in their defensive thing and then getting 1-hit kills here and there.

Edit: The Elven Warriors are nice too because they also have an attack vs air. Orcs in front, Elvens behind them can be nice. It let's you use a spot as a Barracks, but with the added bonus that if flying enemies bypass other towers your elves can finish them off.

[Justice Potato]

Zombies are the only correct answer.