Dyson Sphere Program

Dyson Sphere Program

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Hydrogen from H2O
I don't understand why you can't get hydrogen from water using electricity.

It is also frustrating that there are no real chemical elements other than iron, copper and carbon used in production chains. But a bunch of fictitious junk is used, the name and understanding of which cannot be understood.
:Lurcher:
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Beiträge 115 von 18
bruh, endure the red cubes, later in the game, you will have so much hydrogen, it will clog your entire chains and wont be able to burn it fast enough
Zuletzt bearbeitet von reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR; 17. Okt. 2022 um 5:50
Coops 17. Okt. 2022 um 6:30 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
I don't understand why you can't get hydrogen from water using electricity.

It is also frustrating that there are no real chemical elements other than iron, copper and carbon used in production chains. But a bunch of fictitious junk is used, the name and understanding of which cannot be understood.
:Lurcher:
Titanium, Silicon and Deuterium are not fictitious.
When you are building science fictiony stuff, you have to expect some of the intermediates are also not real things
what about silicon, titanium, steel, oil, anti matter, sulphuric acid, graphene and plastic are ones I can think of
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bluemoon_19:
what about silicon, titanium, steel, oil, anti matter, sulphuric acid, graphene and plastic are ones I can think of
Most of those aren't elements.

Sure,
* steel has iron (Fe) & carbon (C)*;
* oil has carbon (C) & hydrogen (H)*
* sulfuric acid H2SO4 had hydrogen, sulfur, and oxygen
* graphene is just an arrangement of carbon (as is diamond or carbon nanotube; which you didn't mention)
* plastic is generally carbon (C), hydrogen (H), oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), sulphur (S) and chlorine (Cl)

But antimatter is a class of particles (or the elements made of them); not an element of its own.

However in addition to the elements in those material rumax also forgot hydrogen itself (and its isotope Deuterium (has an extra neutron compared to regular Hydrogen)

Oh, and while not elements the following aren't "fictitious junk":
** kimberlite is a type of ore commonly found containing diamonds.
** Methane clathrate (8CH4·46H2O) is also called Fire Ice; basically methane (CH4) trapped in a water ice lattice.

Unipolar magnets is presumable some type of (the hypothesized) magnetic monopole -- though those may be 'fictitious".

But the various crystals don't claim to be elements, some known crystals are single element (diamonds) while others are made of more complex minerals (ruby, Al2O3, with its aluminum and oxygen)
---
* and various trace elements
rumax 17. Okt. 2022 um 8:21 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von josmith7:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bluemoon_19:
what about silicon, titanium, steel, oil, anti matter, sulphuric acid, graphene and plastic are ones I can think of
Most of those aren't elements.

Sure,
* steel has iron (Fe) & carbon (C)*;
* oil has carbon (C) & hydrogen (H)*
* sulfuric acid H2SO4 had hydrogen, sulfur, and oxygen
* graphene is just an arrangement of carbon (as is diamond or carbon nanotube; which you didn't mention)
* plastic is generally carbon (C), hydrogen (H), oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), sulphur (S) and chlorine (Cl)

But antimatter is a class of particles (or the elements made of them); not an element of its own.

However in addition to the elements in those material rumax also forgot hydrogen itself (and its isotope Deuterium (has an extra neutron compared to regular Hydrogen)

Oh, and while not elements the following aren't "fictitious junk":
** kimberlite is a type of ore commonly found containing diamonds.
** Methane clathrate (8CH4·46H2O) is also called Fire Ice; basically methane (CH4) trapped in a water ice lattice.

Unipolar magnets is presumable some type of (the hypothesized) magnetic monopole -- though those may be 'fictitious".

But the various crystals don't claim to be elements, some known crystals are single element (diamonds) while others are made of more complex minerals (ruby, Al2O3, with its aluminum and oxygen)
---
* and various trace elements
its ok. Аnd where aluminum, lithium, gold, platinum, uranium, semiconductors? This upsets me.
And what about water electrolysis?:lunar2019scowlingpig:
Zuletzt bearbeitet von rumax; 17. Okt. 2022 um 8:25
Ursprünglich geschrieben von josmith7:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bluemoon_19:
what about silicon, titanium, steel, oil, anti matter, sulphuric acid, graphene and plastic are ones I can think of
Most of those aren't elements.

Sure,
* steel has iron (Fe) & carbon (C)*;
* oil has carbon (C) & hydrogen (H)*
* sulfuric acid H2SO4 had hydrogen, sulfur, and oxygen
* graphene is just an arrangement of carbon (as is diamond or carbon nanotube; which you didn't mention)
* plastic is generally carbon (C), hydrogen (H), oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), sulphur (S) and chlorine (Cl)

But antimatter is a class of particles (or the elements made of them); not an element of its own.

However in addition to the elements in those material rumax also forgot hydrogen itself (and its isotope Deuterium (has an extra neutron compared to regular Hydrogen)

Oh, and while not elements the following aren't "fictitious junk":
** kimberlite is a type of ore commonly found containing diamonds.
** Methane clathrate (8CH4·46H2O) is also called Fire Ice; basically methane (CH4) trapped in a water ice lattice.

Unipolar magnets is presumable some type of (the hypothesized) magnetic monopole -- though those may be 'fictitious".

But the various crystals don't claim to be elements, some known crystals are single element (diamonds) while others are made of more complex minerals (ruby, Al2O3, with its aluminum and oxygen)
---
* and various trace elements
I know I was just pointing out there is a lot more to the game than just iron, copper and carbon.
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von josmith7:
Most of those aren't elements.

Sure,
* steel has iron (Fe) & carbon (C)*;
* oil has carbon (C) & hydrogen (H)*
* sulfuric acid H2SO4 had hydrogen, sulfur, and oxygen
* graphene is just an arrangement of carbon (as is diamond or carbon nanotube; which you didn't mention)
* plastic is generally carbon (C), hydrogen (H), oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), sulphur (S) and chlorine (Cl)

But antimatter is a class of particles (or the elements made of them); not an element of its own.

However in addition to the elements in those material rumax also forgot hydrogen itself (and its isotope Deuterium (has an extra neutron compared to regular Hydrogen)

Oh, and while not elements the following aren't "fictitious junk":
** kimberlite is a type of ore commonly found containing diamonds.
** Methane clathrate (8CH4·46H2O) is also called Fire Ice; basically methane (CH4) trapped in a water ice lattice.

Unipolar magnets is presumable some type of (the hypothesized) magnetic monopole -- though those may be 'fictitious".

But the various crystals don't claim to be elements, some known crystals are single element (diamonds) while others are made of more complex minerals (ruby, Al2O3, with its aluminum and oxygen)
---
* and various trace elements
its ok. Аnd where aluminum, lithium, gold, platinum, uranium, semiconductors? This upsets me.
And what about water electrolysis?:lunar2019scowlingpig:
you wouldnt have much use of these things you mentioned currently in the game,
unless devs want to make manufacturing even more complex, but I think, that might be beyond the scope of the game

lithium would be for batteries, but you already have accumulators,
gold would be for electronics, but you already have chipsets in the game,
you use deuterium fuel rods, instead of uranium etc
Zuletzt bearbeitet von reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR; 17. Okt. 2022 um 9:14
rumax 17. Okt. 2022 um 11:51 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR:

lithium would be for batteries, but you already have accumulators,
gold would be for electronics, but you already have chipsets in the game,
you use deuterium fuel rods, instead of uranium etc

Batteries all over the world now use just lithium. My old battery has lead in it.
to create chips, you need semiconductors, gold, and not just iron and copper ingots.
Uranus can be used to generate electricity, just like in real life.
Okay, this is a conversation about nothing. :Lurcher:
Shiva 17. Okt. 2022 um 15:20 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR:
lithium would be for batteries, but you already have accumulators,
gold would be for electronics, but you already have chipsets in the game,
you use deuterium fuel rods, instead of uranium etc

Batteries all over the world now use just lithium. My old battery has lead in it.
to create chips, you need semiconductors, gold, and not just iron and copper ingots.
Uranus can be used to generate electricity, just like in real life.
Okay, this is a conversation about nothing. :Lurcher:

(Edit to fix a spelling error)

So, first off we need to make a correction. You don't *need* gold for creating chips. Gold is merely used as a conductor (although a far superior one, it is NOT the only highly conductive material in existence), its not needed as a chemical agent (requiring its specific atomic lattice). Its entirely possible to create very basic chips out of incredibly basic elements.

IBM made copper chips back near 2000, proving that gold isn't required. (there are reasons this isn't done normally, but it proves that gold isn't required)

While I agree that its unlikely that the chips used in this game are so basic that they can be created using a non-optimal method.... Dyson Sphere's aren't exactly very realistic either. The structures themselves are theoretical and the practice of building them is uneconomical EVEN IF it's possible.

This isn't a game about chemical formula's, its a game about building a huge science fiction structure around a star. The inclusion of fiction and exclusion of reality are kind of inherent to this genre.

If you want something about chemical formula's, there are plenty of other games out there that involve that. (even some expressly built to just do chemistry)
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Shiva; 17. Okt. 2022 um 15:22
Arkhne 17. Okt. 2022 um 15:51 
Just to address a few points in this thread, but not to detract from josmith who did a wonderful job at pointing out some facts.

While using electrolysis for hydrogen would be awesome, there's already so many things producing hydrogen as a byproduct, that a lot of people complain about how much hydrogen there is (not me! It's a great fuel source for much of the game, especially proliferated). So personally, I'd love more uses for water, and more easy hydrogen, but I feel like the players as a whole would be against it. (EDIT: The best use for this would be side-loading the belts to supplement any drop-offs in production from other sources, which honestly, is an excellent failsafe).

More variety in base resources would just add complexity for no reason. The complexity in DSP comes from the production chains, most factory games have a ton of basic resources, with very simple production chains, DSP is the opposite, and I like that it's different, if they were all the same, why would anybody play anything but "the best"?


There's absolutely no reason to use Uranium (or even Plutonium) when Deuterium is as abundant as it is in DSP. There is no upside to Uranium compared to Deuterium, and not enough benefit to Plutonium to outweigh the benefits of Deuterium. If out deuterium production IRL was more efficient, we could easily power the world on it (and should), it's an excellent fuel.

Dyson Spheres are downright impractical, and borderline impossible (the structural stresses are insane). Dyson Swarms, however, are extremely practical, and likely one of the best power sources a civilization can develop for long-term, sustainable growth (the biggest difficulty with space-based energy production is something DSP just glosses over with the Ray Receiver, wireless power transmission is pretty much a requirement as sending ships to recover it would be impractical).

None of this is to say that some super advanced civilization might decide to do things in impractical ways for whatever reason. Maybe they worship Uranium because it helped them through their darkest hour, so now they use Uranium power generation as a kind of worship, and only ordained are allowed to work in their power plants? We can't speak for any other civilization, since we have no other perspective, even ficticious civilizations made by us are sorely lacking in this.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Arkhne; 17. Okt. 2022 um 15:52
rumax 17. Okt. 2022 um 22:09 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shiva:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:

Batteries all over the world now use just lithium. My old battery has lead in it.
to create chips, you need semiconductors, gold, and not just iron and copper ingots.
Uranus can be used to generate electricity, just like in real life.
Okay, this is a conversation about nothing. :Lurcher:

(Edit to fix a spelling error)

So, first off we need to make a correction. You don't *need* gold for creating chips. Gold is merely used as a conductor (although a far superior one, it is NOT the only highly conductive material in existence), its not needed as a chemical agent (requiring its specific atomic lattice). Its entirely possible to create very basic chips out of incredibly basic elements.

IBM made copper chips back near 2000, proving that gold isn't required. (there are reasons this isn't done normally, but it proves that gold isn't required)

While I agree that its unlikely that the chips used in this game are so basic that they can be created using a non-optimal method.... Dyson Sphere's aren't exactly very realistic either. The structures themselves are theoretical and the practice of building them is uneconomical EVEN IF it's possible.

This isn't a game about chemical formula's, its a game about building a huge science fiction structure around a star. The inclusion of fiction and exclusion of reality are kind of inherent to this genre.

If you want something about chemical formula's, there are plenty of other games out there that involve that. (even some expressly built to just do chemistry)

Of course, any game needs a logical balance between reality and fiction, but I can say that total disregard for the complexity of the stated task sometimes ignores common sense. Sometimes ignoring simple things leads to disappointing all the delight from the result.

No one has ever said why I can't get hydrogen from water.:Lurcher:
rumax 17. Okt. 2022 um 22:18 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Warchild:
Just to address a few points in this thread, but not to detract from josmith who did a wonderful job at pointing out some facts.

While using electrolysis for hydrogen would be awesome, there's already so many things producing hydrogen as a byproduct, that a lot of people complain about how much hydrogen there is (not me! It's a great fuel source for much of the game, especially proliferated). So personally, I'd love more uses for water, and more easy hydrogen, but I feel like the players as a whole would be against it. (EDIT: The best use for this would be side-loading the belts to supplement any drop-offs in production from other sources, which honestly, is an excellent failsafe).

More variety in base resources would just add complexity for no reason. The complexity in DSP comes from the production chains, most factory games have a ton of basic resources, with very simple production chains, DSP is the opposite, and I like that it's different, if they were all the same, why would anybody play anything but "the best"?


There's absolutely no reason to use Uranium (or even Plutonium) when Deuterium is as abundant as it is in DSP. There is no upside to Uranium compared to Deuterium, and not enough benefit to Plutonium to outweigh the benefits of Deuterium. If out deuterium production IRL was more efficient, we could easily power the world on it (and should), it's an excellent fuel.

Dyson Spheres are downright impractical, and borderline impossible (the structural stresses are insane). Dyson Swarms, however, are extremely practical, and likely one of the best power sources a civilization can develop for long-term, sustainable growth (the biggest difficulty with space-based energy production is something DSP just glosses over with the Ray Receiver, wireless power transmission is pretty much a requirement as sending ships to recover it would be impractical).

None of this is to say that some super advanced civilization might decide to do things in impractical ways for whatever reason. Maybe they worship Uranium because it helped them through their darkest hour, so now they use Uranium power generation as a kind of worship, and only ordained are allowed to work in their power plants? We can't speak for any other civilization, since we have no other perspective, even ficticious civilizations made by us are sorely lacking in this.

my dream is to create a game -- Space Alchemist. I've had this idea for a long time. (no mans sky makes me very frustrated in this regard, because it is a great game, but without realism in logic). Where, as in real life, you need to work with substances and formulas, as in real life. But it's all in the form of a game, of course. The abundance of chemical elements would be the same as in real life and for crafting complex mechanisms, the same chemical elements would be needed as in real life.
(sorry, gotta run, no time to write):Lurcher:
Kyrros 18. Okt. 2022 um 12:17 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
No one has ever said why I can't get hydrogen from water.

Simple Answer
Simplest answer anyone can give you is, "You don't need it, that's why"

A slightly more involved answer
It's a practical game development decision, plain and simple. Hydrogen is already extremely abundant in this game (more than anything else in the game - or the Universe, for that matter). You're just not far enough enough in the game to have bumped into the problem that just about every other player has of 'HALP! I Have Too Much Hydrogen'... (Just do a search here on the forums, you'll find 100's of posts on that very topic)

You can currently obtain Hydrogen as byproducts from:
  • Refining raw Oil
  • X-Ray cracking Oil
  • Creating Graphene from FireIce
  • Extracting Anti-matter from Critical Photons
  • And of course, you can obtain massive amounts of infinite Hydrogen directly from Gas and Ice Giants via orbital extraction.

Adding more sources of Hydrogen would be placing limited development resource time into something that would benefit very few players and add very little to the game that's not already present in multiple other forms... not a good trade-off from the perspective of the devs.

Yes, water electrolysis is doable fairly easily (relatively) in the real world; though, just like the real world, there are only a limited number of situations where it's PRACTICAL to actually do so... and none of those limited situations apply to DSP itself.

Just suppose the devs decide to add an electrolysis recipe. Okay, would they have to add that capability to a current building? Which building do they put the recipe it in that makes the most sense? How much water/power goes in and how much Hydrogen comes out? If not a current building, then they'll need to develop an entirely new asset/building just for electrolysis.

Honestly, I think the biggest and most obvious hurdle as to why no electrolysis in DSP... what about the leftover Oxygen gas? O2 has no use currently in DSP - it'd be a pretty glaring oversight to have H2O electrolysis giving H2 but no O2.

:sphere:
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Kyrros; 18. Okt. 2022 um 12:19
jamiechi 18. Okt. 2022 um 12:26 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
I don't understand why you can't get hydrogen from water using electricity.

It is also frustrating that there are no real chemical elements other than iron, copper and carbon used in production chains. But a bunch of fictitious junk is used, the name and understanding of which cannot be understood.
:Lurcher:
I believe there is a mod that lets you make hydrogen from water. I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know if it works.
Kyrros 18. Okt. 2022 um 12:37 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
It is also frustrating that there are no real chemical elements other than iron, copper and carbon used in production chains.

You probably should go back to school and do a basic Chemistry refresher course. As stated more eloquently above by others, just about every single 'raw' resource in DSP is a real item, several of which are actually chemical elements present on the periodic table.

Periodic Table:
Copper, Iron, Silicon, Titanium, Hydrogen, Deuterium (which is also technically just an isotope of Hydrogen), and Diamond (which, itself, is an allotrope of Carbon).

Real-world Molecules:
Water, Sulfuric Acid, not to mention all the different organic compounds like Oil, Coal, Wood, Leaves, and Organic Crystals (not a 'real thing' per se, rather a stand-in for the literally millions of naturally/biologically occurring materials on Earth that can be used to make polymers, aka 'Plastic')

Ursprünglich geschrieben von rumax:
But a bunch of fictitious junk is used

Just becasue you have a limited understanding of Science/Physics, doesn't mean the Devs do - just about everything created in the production chains have a basis in either real-world or modern theoretical physics and engineering: fiber optics, glass and all the different forms it takes in DSP, modern and quantum computing, and the Casmir effect, are all very much present in our applied modern world, especially in the realm of modern computing and processor manufacture.

The few exceptions - the 'fictitious junk' as you call it - are all the different research matrices (colored jello cubes), and the things surrounding the Green Matrix (due to limited understanding of Gravity itself) like Graviton lenses, Plane Filters, the warp matrix. Then of course, the dreaded Unipole magnets, which are completely thoretical and currently have no way of actually existing in our modern understanding particle physics.

Very little of DSP is 'fictitious' - some real background work was done to give DSP a pretty reasonable (though not perfect) basis in our current understanding of material and particle sciences and engineering.

:sphere:
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Kyrros; 18. Okt. 2022 um 12:40
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