This is one of the worst updates

[Grizelina]

Must it be that this game will be also one of those war games?
Why adding combat? Must you teach our kids in every game to fight?
It whas a peasefull game where we can relax.

[Mirvra]

Originalmente postado por Grizelina:

-snip-

1, You're assigning a much grander value to a Dyson sphere than it actually has... It's very much not the greatest thing a Civilization can achieve, it's amazing yes, but not ''the greatest ever'' It also only really solves the issue of energy, and unless the civilization has figured out how to convert energy into specific mass then it's usefulness diminishes.

1a, throughout your comment you keep using the game as a stand in for humanity in the real world, this is not healthy... In the game humanity has ascended into a digital reality, where the only thing they need is energy to sustain the simulation of their selves and their world. And even then they suffer scarcity of energy... forcing them to leave their digital world and go into the material world to harvest the life of untold numbers of stars to sustain themselves, and keep in mind that energy isn't unlimited, ever bit of energy the Dyson sphere captures is energy that can't reach a planet or a distant star.


2, Icarus is a name most attribute to the idea of reaching for something greater, or higher... Which is exactly what we do in the game, you're assigning a bunch of extra traits to the name that aren't there.

2a, Hooo boy... Attributing violence as a Human INSTINCT is incredibly telling of you as a person.


3, Again, you seem to be convinced that violence is part of human nature... Yet you're behaving as if you're somehow beyond all that, quite an arrogant viewpoint. I very much disagree that violence is ''human nature'' since there's plenty of examples of people helping each-other to become greater together, after all do you assume society just sprung into existence? Do you assume someone went around murdering and enslaving everyone else to build the first city?

4, Asimov's 3 laws of robotics. Why did you add a 0'th law that's just a repeat of the first half of the 1'st law? Anyways, as for the laws themselves, they're not actual ''laws'' but rather what Asimov thought we would need to hard-code into ACTUAL AI to prevent them from randomly murdering us. The laws themselves are incredibly easily broken by changing the variables, after all, would an AI care if the laws told it not to murder humans while it was doing so, if it's knowledge of the concept of ''humans'' instead pointed to a plant? or something else humanoid?

4a, Your assumption of ''mech vs mech'' is rather off, the Dark fog is a mass of rudimentary AI that's been corrupted to the point where they're no longer fulfilling their original function, instead they've simply devolved to performing the absolute base functions they had ''Harvest, reproduce, spread'' Meanwhile Icarus is being directly piloted by a digital human either from wherever the centerbrain is located at, or from a server stored inside the Icarus itself.


5, This is just an entire paragraph of you basically virtue signaling? Despite you claiming you aren't doing it... It's also quite telling that you're only looking at the negatives of ''there's war in the code now!'' instead of the positives of ''There might be war, but anyone that doesn't want to experience it can simply turn it off'' You're overlooking the benefits in order to ham-fist your narrative to fit...

6, Not much I can say here since it's mostly just a rant, but I'll point out that literally no one is ''silencing'' you... There's no gag over your mouth preventing you from speaking, no one's cut off your fingers to prevent you from typing. You're painting yourself as a victim despite there being no oppressor.

7, The original meaning of Christmas? Oh you mean celebrating the birth of Jesus? A person from one of thousands of different religions? So we're all supposed to conform to your particular religious views for a period of the year? Then when are you going to adhere to the beliefs or lack there-of, of the rest of us? Or does only your view matter? Does your opinion hold more weight than the rest of us?


The point of it all is, there's games with no combat or war in them, there's games were you save lives and games where you take them. This is a game where a lot of people wanted some form of combat since otherwise there's nothing to do in the game once you've constructed your Dyson sphere, no matter how much you like it, there's literally no reason to keep playing the game afterwards. Instead of digging yourself into a philosophical pit to literally try to shame and guilt-trip others for not adhering to your personal worldview of being some kind of idealized humanity, you can simply toggle the combat portion of the game off, and go on with you day.

[Zefar]

It's an option. Turn it off if it bothers you that much. Plenty of people want to have some thrill when playing building games because otherwise there is no challenge in them.

This is the best of both worlds.
Now if they could add Coop as a default feature that'd be lovely. Because I'm waiting for the mod to start working.

[Dirkels]

You do know the Asimov laws are just fantasy? Also most of his robot stories are about how you can get around those laws.

I do agree that this game would not have needed combat. But it was promised from the start for those who want it and since it can be turned off I fail to see why this is one of the worst updates.

[Jesus]

stop feeding the trolls

if the op isnt trolling - its obvious they are not rational so stop encouraging

[wenwg2022]

Originalmente postado por Grizelina:

It is now time to clarify a few things here. The announcement of the new update gave me some very unsettling feelings that I had never experienced before in games. And to make it clear to me where these came from, I opened this thread. I was hoping for a reasonable discussion and found an unfounded ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. But your answers made me realize what really
bothers me.

Yes, I chose a headline that appealed. This choice was both impulsive and unconscious. Unconsciously in this regard, you can already find an answer here. And how excited you were about it. You felt attacked.
Yes, I openly admit that some of the reasons you list may be true. However, much of it is not well thought out.
We humans come from an animal world that acts instinctively. But humanity has distanced itself from this by beginning to control these instincts.
Just one example: We have harnessed fire for our own benefit even though all animal instincts say fire is danger - run away.

Given the scarcity of resources and the unique availability of raw materials in the ground, the fight for resources is an immediate result. However, upon closer inspection, it is an instinct to fulfill one's own desires, especially the desire for personal enrichment. all the negative feelings that come with it result from this. In the past, they led to people distancing themselves from one another.

But why? We humans reproduce disproportionately and therefore need more. More food, more water, more land, more raw materials. In the past, our ancestors were only able to share what little they found within their own family, their own clan, in order to ensure continued existence. This led to the separation of one's own living space from others.
All borders as we find them on the maps today are a logical consequence of this. But strictly speaking, they are just limits in our heads. Just like those of religion, ancestry, social rank and others. Anyone who crosses the border uninvited is considered an enemy and treated accordingly. Anyone who asks to cross boundaries is met with mistrust and suspicion. This has always led to fighting and this will continue as long as we keep these boundaries in our heads. Everything As long as we give priority to the instinct of defending our own property and territory over the general property.

1. What does the Dyson Sphere represent?
And that brings me to the first point of why this update bothers me so much, even though I didn't care about it in other games. It's something that no one here has probably considered before.
What is this game and what does it represent?
A building game with resources... OK
However, what else?
The Dyson Sphere… The greatest achievement a CIVILIZATION can achieve.
However, it can only achieve this by sharing all the resources of a given world or star system equally among everyone. By making the resources common property. As a logical consequence, this requires the overcoming of all previous instincts in the animal world. Above all, the instinct to fight.
And now management is releasing an update with combat? On a topic of your own choosing that can hardly be bigger?

2. Icarus
the name alone… The hope of flight, of freedom, of independence. But also, those who came too close to the sun. As a given mecha, a programmed robot with its own intelligence. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to complete his mission. OK, what's bothering you?
Or better yet, what doesn't bother you first of all? If humanity has acquired the technology for Dyson Spheres, then also for mechas. Clear. It is also logical that she sends them into space to open up new habitats. She will then probably program this into not taking anything away from other civilizations. This should be clear to everyone who understands the first point.
Now you can counter... We could also be attacked there by uncivilized people who envy our achievements. To do this we have to defend ourselves. Yes Ok… Could be a reason… Or not?
If humanity sends an Icarus into space, then they should be able to program it well. That he doesn't get too close to other civilizations and avoids fights. However, he could. Its name implements this yes. However, we should also be smart enough to allow him to avoid fights.
We could only send our Icarus if we are clear that we can reach an alien world not only with Icarus itself, but also with our own manned spaceships. And I guess we don't want to get there and get caught up in fights unprepared. That would be fatal.
And it is rather unlikely that Icarus would fly into space on its own without being pushed by a human. Because what for?
But now this update… I can only shake my head.
Humanity has been fighting on Earth since the beginning of its existence. Wars are becoming more and more sophisticated and more and more mechanized. Weapons are already being developed that, controlled by artificial intelligence, are intended to make the appearance of humans on battlefields unnecessary. Yes, a war is already being fought in which people control drones from a safe distance in order to kill others. This is not the first war in which drones are used. It is the first war in which this occurs on BOTH sides. From here it is only a few steps until fully automated wars take place. Controlled by artificial intelligence. And people just say start fighting... They don't fight themselves anymore. Wars like in games.
In previous wars there was still a certain probability of survival by surrendering to a direct enemy. This is unlikely compared to drones... Especially for civilians.
And now? Update with mech fighting against mech? A testimony to how incapable we are of suppressing our own instincts and continuing to progress in the development of humanity! All those who think this is good and legal in a game that actually has the goal of achieving the greatest achievement of a civilization have not understood this. The controversy couldn't be bigger... That's what bothers me the most about this update...

How incapable is management of disregarding something like this? It's not the devs who should be held responsible for this. No, not her. They are internally ashamed that they had to program something like that in their job. Because this is just a fulfillment of what management states. And up to now the management had the option of whether or not to bring this about. YES, you are right. You have already thought about it from the beginning. But they haven't thought through what they want to bring. Blatantly wrong decision. And only because there are players who want more Kombat in games. More content. And who knows what else...You wanted them and they didn't have much of a choice anymore.
Minus point for controversial DS vs Kombat
Minus point for commerce over morality

3. Players are obsessed with fighting
You wanted it, yes YOU.
You give reasons such as lack of resources. Complete nonsense… Icarus is already demonstrating it
If you are able to reach another star and the resources there are not enough to build the Dyson Sphere, then hop to the next star and get it from there. There are countless stars in infinity. Infinite resources in space. Maybe a lack on site, however, if you have the opportunity to reach other stars.
As a reason, fights are inevitable because we can be attacked, exactly the same nonsense as I already wrote. When humanity sends an Icarus into space, it will look for places where no one will disturb anyone. The universe is infinite.
The truth is different. You just don't want to admit it to yourself.
You have been able to play this game without any fights so far. Didn't you have fun with it? Ask yourself that, you don't need to answer here.
How long can you actually suppress your urge to fight? The instinct for it? You don't need to answer that either. Try it out. Not just yourself, your friends too. Then you will find an answer for yourself.
Newborns learn from their environment. However, the one thing your environment seems to have failed to teach you is how to control your instincts. Yes, maybe I even have to pity you, since your environment has only implemented fighting for you. You grew up and were given everything you need. You did not have to endure a permanent deprivation of what was taken for granted.
Do you want to fight? Childish and not mature. Unable to control instincts.
Fighting out of greed, envy, jealousy fueled by commercialism. Yes We live in a world in which resources are becoming increasingly scarce and we are fighting for them. Be it because there are too many of us or be it because the resource fields are becoming exhausted or be it because we need certain resources that we cannot find in our own area. This is all correct when you state this. However, we will never reach a level of civilization where we can build a Dyson Sphere. Not unless we suppress these instincts and come to an agreement.
And now you want fights in a game in which you want to achieve exactly this achievement? You wished for this without thinking about it? You got what you wanted. However, it is different from what you should have wanted. It has been an option for the management of this game so far. But you wanted it and you didn't see any other option?
Nobody thought. Or better yet, think the whole thing through here.
Previous generations of games have built on those before them. The next generation of games will also use this game as a model.
The battles we wage on Earth are becoming more and more abstract. More and more to a video, a game. And now you are leading the fight at the highest level of civilization from Earth into space? Are you actually aware of what you have asked for? What did you wish for? What was delivered here?
It's the worst scenario ever.

Next minus point or how many should we give here?
Not thought through and through - minus 1
Not thinking about future generations of games - minus 1


4. The fight between mech and mech
As early as 1942, Isaak Asimov described the laws of robots in a novel and added another novel.
0. A robot must not harm humanity or allow humanity to come to harm through passivity.
1. A robot may not injure people or cause harm through inaction, unless it violates the zeroth law.
2. A robot must obey the commands of humans - unless such commands contradict the zeroth or first law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as its actions do not contradict the zeroth, first or second law.
Any action against it will lead to the self-destruction of the robot brain.

Anyone who has understood these laws should also understand that a fight between Mech and Mech cannot take place. Only the 3rd law prevents this. A robot will not attack another robot because it has to protect itself, not unless it has to protect a human. On battlefields where there are only robots, only the third law works. And anyone who says “Yes, there is still the 0th law.”, should be told that the logic of the robots rejects any fight on the basis of greed, envy, etc. in order to protect all of humanity. It would be directed against the one who orders just such a fight. Then Law 1 takes effect and annuls Law 2.
If these laws are ineffective in stand-alone Mech programs, this leads to uncontrollable conditions. Read Asimov and think about it. Send robots into space that have the ability to reproduce themselves. With the aim of destroying every enemy. Your opponent does exactly the same. The battle will spread across the entire universe. And last until eternity. Any form of civilization that is drawn there is doomed. You yourself too. Because the robots will no longer be able to stop and be stopped on their own.

It looks like this update creates exactly that scenario. Hordes of robots attacking others. Why? Because it's so cool?

The next worst case. Unstoppable War. Something that will be taught in games from now on. Here you wished it, here it is. But is the result really what you wanted? Especially for this game with such a goal?

Didn't research next negative point
Again, not thinking minus one


5. Option On and Off
Oh yeah... How many times have you just said turn it off, play without it, move on?
Yehh...
Yeah, I'm not a fan of fighting. In the past, I always felt a bit nervous when I used options like this.
You wanted fights in this game. I was hoping that, like the other 2 big games in this genre, Factorio and Satisfactory, these would just be mech/human against nature. In fights like this, I probably wouldn't say anything. However, mech against mech, so simple, no blood, no dying. The meaning behind it...
Enjoy the worst update ever. The lack of assessment of what its meaning is, especially in this game with this content. You wished for it. You got it.
But thanks to you, from now on I will use the other option with a clear conscience. I will do it with both feet on the ground and my head held high. Thanks to you, I now know that I can control my instinct to fight. That I don't revert to purely animal instincts and can progress as a human being. Just as humanity did and does from the animal world. And I hope that others recognize this as well and follow me.
Unconsciously, I called this the Worst Update. And once again, YES, it is. I continue to stand by it.
Unconsciously, I wrote that we are teaching our children something we shouldn't do. The next generation of games can't help but do just that.

I've learned more here now, about myself and what's really happening here, than I thought. I was able to get to the bottom of what was troubling me so much here. Which prompted me to open this discussion. Not from the high horse, as some claim. And it took me 2 days to write this too.

6. now to all those who find my profile offensive and call me a troll.
122 games yes... ok I admit that's a lot... I also play games that involve fighting, so far it hasn't bothered me too much. Until now I also thought that I was just not a fan of it... This also taught me why I can't get excited about it.
However, the number of games alone doesn't say anything about what I'm really interested in. And I also admit, I'm looking for the game that interests me. Because 122 isn't even 1/100 of the games I skimmed for content on Steam. At least that's what Steam says.
And my current avatar just happens to be from Dota. His selection is not based on having played Dota. But just that he looks somewhat neutral compared to other avatars. Steam allows you to use things from other games too.
Ha and troll... how funny... I laughed half to death that the very people who apparently want to silence me called me a troll and used wording that was trollish.

7 And again worst update
At Christmas time of all times, an update will be released in which fighting will be implemented. Does anyone still have the original meaning of Christmas in mind or has it all already been lost in actions that promote commerce? How much humanity has fallen back into animal instincts? Called back by people who value money more than anything else.

How many minus points are those together? How many would you give if you understood all of this?


In any case, enjoy the new update

Merry Christmas

Really inspiring thoughts. Really. I would say that there is a significant difference between your ideology and my thoughts which causes confusion to me. However, I do sense your genuine reflection on humanity and the game. That is not something one would find on the internet nowadays, especially in a game community.

Although I may say let's agree to disagree, I really appreciate your two-day work. Thanks for bringing me the thoughts. Maybe I should say that I have seen an idealist with all my respect.

Since I don't celebrate Christmas, I should just say nice to meet a guy like you.

[GD]

A lot of text in the last posts. Let's just say I'm glad that not all idealists are dead and there might be some hope for humanity after all. I just regret that we always need to learn it the hard way and wait until the very last second before becoming our better selves.

That's it for me. I wish you all a happy christmas and a better new year 2024.

[Zarek]

Originalmente postado por mobias:

Originalmente postado por Mikara:

Its the snowflake generation of no children left behind. To this day it just boggles my mind and depresses me,

Enough of the 'snowflake generation' rude slander! Got a major news flash for you, WE raised that generation! Any perceived faults or shortcomings they arguably have, is YOUR g'damn fault! wake up! A lot of people here are reverse trolling like somebody wanting to take their wittle sucker away! A lot of you need to grow up.

First if you're going to insult, learn how to write. There's a thing called punctuation and grammar.
So quick you all are to blast this person for 'essentially' asking why this resource factory builder now has to have combat, which i actually feel is a legit question. Aside of the fact they 'mentioned' it as a goal. For me, it all looks very ambitious, and i do worry the original base fun of the game is going to get a bit lost with all the over-saturation of new systems and new mechanics and new screens and new everything. Do people not worry about MANAGING all of this at once? It also makes it exponentially more complex of a game to manage, which means more bugs, which means even more time we wait to finally play v1.0 of this game.. which is what I've been trying to do for years now... I also can't see them keeping separate versions of the game supported and fixed just for those that turn off this add on.

The generational stuff is nonsense. I agree with you. Plenty to criticize in every age group.

The competing interests is the best point against combat i've seen. You aren't wrong about that. On the other hand - its beautifully integrated from what i've seen. And two of my favorite quality of life features i didnt even know i needed came out of it. Wind turbines on water - THANK YOU. But thats indirect. All the new fuel sources at different tears for a more incremental improvement? I love it. The better geothermal, also cool. I think "care bear" runs are going to continue to receive benefit from these innovations.

I just dont worry about managing it, becuase Im used to managing it in factorio. Now ill also grant you i eventually get bored of the biters. I'll probably get bored of dark fog too. But for me its a reason to come back and play again, so im excited.

[Marakith]

For me, one of my favorite things about this update is a simple thing, fliters on slots within both inventory.. and storage boxes. You can now have a storage box, limit it to X slots, limit 2 slots to copper, 2 slots to magnets, 2 slots to iron bars, 2 slots to gears... etc, and have a small production facility making engines/magnets/smelted copper all around just 1 box rather than having belts/boxes everywhere as before, allowing for much more compact blueprints, and more efficient.
I can set my inventory so that logistic bots, distributers and power poles are always stored in a specific place so no more searching my inventory to find them, and same for any item. (just middle click a slot)
There's the auto feed fuel to Icarus option so you're not manually doing it all the time, and if you run out of your preferred item it can automatically start taking wood/plants/coal or anything else you have available. The overall character interface on C is nicer...
There are a lot of good things about this update as well as things you may not want, have to take the good with the bad. I haven't tried a peaceful run myself but I'm sure for many that prefer peaceful mode you will notice these nice little quality improvements as well.

[Ｍｏｎａｄｎｏｃｋ]

Originalmente postado por Grizelina:

/snip

This is how you know that this is a troll. Bringing up animal instincts, even though the animal kingdom is chock full of violence at the behest of survival. Fire can also be violent, but it is likewise needed for survival.

Try harder. I award you 0/10 points.

[GreatOldGods]

BRO go play undertale wtf

[Sail's Projection]

Originalmente postado por Grizelina:

It is now time to clarify a few things here. (...snip)

Firstly, you should know that this thread is the #2 Google search result for "dyson sphere dark fog review". You have likely given countless people pause and opportunity to reflect.

While I have been excitedly anticipating this update along with many others for over a year, I have been moved by your post. As a parent I have been reflecting about the communities and the world my children will be and are a part of, how that will shape them, and vice versa. I have been particularly bothered about the gaming community, which I grew up in, and its treatment of women (I won't hijack the thread to get into the specifics here, those who are honestly curious can see my other posts or better-articulated articles online).

The majority of responses I have received have been similar to here (troll accusations, personal attacks, 'snowflake' awards), but there are the select few, from both sides, that participated in good-faith discussion. I am grateful for the opportunity to attempt to repay an oasis of thoughtfulness as others have done in my threads.

Your ruminations on our civilization, nationalism, and perceived scarcity of resources have been well received and parallel how I've been perceiving our societal challenges. How can we work together to solve issues that threaten humanity when there is one small demographic controlling the majority of our resources (or dialog), who are mainly interested in further widening that resource disparity to compete with others in their class? How can we utilize new modes of thought, distanced from those that created our problems in the first place, if we are not clearing the path for new decision-makers? How can we all come together on solving universal societal issues if we continue to "other" large groups in our society?

The nuance you highlighted of a civilization achieving a milestone of cooperation and pooling its resources together to build a dyson sphere, contrasted with this update to add fighting a war with automations, does indeed raise concerns about our trajectory. We just had to add battle and conflict to propagate our current state rather than use this opportunity to aspire to something greater. I hear your frustrations here.

Another framing could be that the dark fog is a lesson from a previous civilization that Icarus must now manage while balancing it's more aspirational mission. That we must somehow balance the ever-present need for defense against an aggressor force (whether that be a faceless existential crisis e.g. climate change, or a tangible enemy), while at the same time achieving harmony with its environment, and also not reducing that civilization to the struggle itself. We must allow the civilization it to transcend the problems it faces into something beyond them....

Thank you for your post. If you or others wanting to engage in good-faith discussion I will check back, but I get that this is an exhausting undertaking and you may be unsubscribed to recoup your energies to live your life. The 2 day response was quite an undertaking but please know that it bore fruit and will continue to move others.

[Flith]

It's by sheer scale of numbers of the human population why we get threads like this.

[dhitch89]

Originalmente postado por Sail's Projection:

Thank you for your post. If you or others wanting to engage in good-faith discussion I will check back

The thing is, and I don't mean any harm by this, but most people's responses are coming from a place of "Why say this here, on a specific game board?" and - from that viewpoint - seeing it as a waste of time, and very much misplaced, most likely.

Not to say it hasn't had some merits, but OPs points would've been served by being stated on gaming-general threads and other places where people would be open to have such discussions, rather than a board specifically for DSP (which by implication, should only be about the game, not deep stuff mainly unrelated to it - whether we like it or not, that is the normal mindset for such things).

Moreover, while idealism and such thoughts do have their place, it's also important to word them in a manner that's not blind to reality.

[Shermyth]

I don't feel the combat was needed, but it does add spice to the game and a lot more complexity.

@Mirvra, If you read Azimov's robot books, you will run across the 0th law. Don't go by just the first book or the movie based on it.

[Spooner]

Originalmente postado por phillip_lynx:

Originalmente postado por Grizelina:

we have wars on earth everywhere. Must it be here to?

No, it is not a MUST, because you can disable it totaly.

And it is a often requested feature from the community.

If only in real life, the UN had the same power.