Current tech tree and progression is kinda bad

[JohnnyBoya]

I don't mean to insult the devs with this post or when i say this but the current tech tree is what i would call an unmitigated clusterf*ck

As it is right now it caused me a bit of confusion early on, being able to unlock things i don't need and are in fact prerequisites for things i didn't even know about, and the things i did unlock often required others that are buried somewhere in the tech tree, smooth progression is essential in automation games and forcing the player to fine comb the tech tree to figure out where things are is just bad design to me.

I could go into detail but for now i'll just say that the worst offender by far is how i need titanium to make yellow science that i need to research interstellar logistics that will allow me to transport the titanium that i need for yellow science that i need for interstellar logistics. Keep in mind not even Satisfactory ever made this mistake

The titanium issue brings us to the next big problem with progression which i find baffling: Why is the game holding back interstellar logistics for so long? I thought it was the main selling point? The main differentiator from other automation games? i'm well into half of the tech tree and only now i can build the freaking thing. I mean i unlock silicon but i can't go to the silicon planet because theres no point? I unlock titanium and it's the same thing? If i'm gonna be stuck building everything on the same planet then this is no different from vanilla Factorio.

So i thought maybe i was missing something, maybe a rework was in order but i couldn't find any roadmaps, pretty sure there are no other ways to transport things, it could be hidden somewhere in the confusing tech tree but i doubt that, maybe i worried too much and manually transporting isn't that bad? That would just be bad design, if the game is about automation it doesn't makes sense to suddenly drag the player back into doing things manually, not to mention it would just be disrespecting the player's time at that point. And even then the other issues would still stand.

[VIP IP]

Please tell me if I am confusing your issue.
Do you not have a planet within your starting solar system which provides titanium? Does your seed force you to ship it from one star system to a different one?
As far as i know you only need red matrices to unlock the drives for the vessels that ship resources from elevators on one planet to another. Did you get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by your seed?

[dhitch89]

Originally posted by VIP IP:

Please tell me if I am confusing your issue.
Do you not have a planet within your starting solar system which provides titanium? Does your seed force you to ship it from one star system to a different one?
As far as i know you only need red matrices to unlock the drives for the vessels that ship resources from elevators on one planet to another. Did you get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by your seed?

Actually, you only need red science to unlock Icarus's system-flight and on-planet logistic stations.

Between-planets(/systems) need a bit of yellow science too, which requires at least one trip to your nearby planets to get titanium and silicon. Organic crystals can be gotten on the starter planet, either rarely from tree drops or as a creation of long complex oil setups... though, if you're up for the long trip to/back without warpers, you can also go to another system entirely and bring a ton back.

(They can also drop from Dark Fog attacks at certain levels, but unless you've upped their EXP growth/threat generation settings, that can take much longer than going in person. On default settings, I would say at least double/triple.)

[teron]

Trick is you setup early a titanium smelting line (since bars are more space efficient then ore) which dumps into a storage box.

Then come back later with a mostly empty inventory (remember to research inventory expansion upgrades) to grab all those finished bars to manually ferry back. You can also cheese it slightly by hand carrying a bunch of ingots.

Hand carrying being when you click on the inventory in the box to load it into Icarus’s hand, then fly back to your starting planet. Usually a full inventory + hand carry is enough titanium to craft the research cubes + hardened titanium for your first two interstellar logistics towers + some ships.
Worse case you have to make 2 trips.

You also want to then research the upgrades that improve the drone/logistic ships carrying capacity and speed. The initial techs only effect drones.

[VIP IP]

Ok Yes I agree with you hitch. I misunderstood because johnny states that "i need titanium to make yellow science that i need to research interstellar logistics that will allow me to transport the titanium." I took it literally that they needed they yellow to transport the titanium from one planet to another within the same system.

As far as my experience with the game Johnny, you do need a little bit of manual at the starting stages of the game unfortunately. As you stated as well, "maybe i worried too much and manually transporting isn't that bad?" I did it too and as far as I know most of us do as well at the beginning. However, with the new Dark Fog mechanics, they do drop some stuff that makes things some resources farmable.

[dhitch89]

Originally posted by VIP IP:

Ok Yes I agree with you hitch. I misunderstood because johnny states that "i need titanium to make yellow science that i need to research interstellar logistics that will allow me to transport the titanium." I took it literally that they needed they yellow to transport the titanium from one planet to another within the same system.

As far as my experience with the game Johnny, you do need a little bit of manual at the starting stages of the game unfortunately. As you stated as well, "maybe i worried too much and manually transporting isn't that bad?" I did it too and as far as I know most of us do as well at the beginning. However, with the new Dark Fog mechanics, they do drop some stuff that makes things some resources farmable.

That is what it sounded like to me too, don't worry.

And yeah, everything we do starts as manual. First we collect ores, then miners automate ore but we still have to manually create ingots (among other things) to make more miners/buildings, then we automate ingots but we still can only manually create other things until we can automate making those... the list goes on and on. It makes sense that we'd have to start manually going to other planets too.

Heck, even at the most endgame of endgames, we still need to manually go to every new system/planet to set up the receiving ends of whatever we need, just to start the automation there. I'm fine with it though, because if we could remotely see where to remotely send drones that would start remotely creating our blueprints once there, it'd start feeling like the game was (fully) playing itself at that point :P

[JohnnyBoya]

Originally posted by dhitch89:

Both Planet and Interstellar Logistic Stations need (a bit of) yellow science as well, which requires at least one trip to your nearby planets to get titanium and silicon... or get them as drops from Dark Fog attacks, but unless you've upped their EXP growth/threat generation settings, that can take longer than going in person (on default settings, I would say at least double/triple).

I see so one trip is enough? Thanks for clearing that up, maybe it's not that bad.

I still think it's an issue though, specially how interstellar logistics come in too late, to me that should be like the trains in Factorio which only require 2 science packs instead of 3, just letting the player mess around with planets sooner in a more streamlined way would only improve the game, also the tech tree needing a rework is pretty undeniable i think.

[dhitch89]

Originally posted by Johnny Boya:

I see so one trip is enough? Thanks for clearing that up, maybe it's not that bad.

I still think it's an issue though, specially how interstellar logistics come in too late, to me that should be like the trains in Factorio which only require 2 science packs instead of 3, just letting the player mess around with planets sooner in a more streamlined way would only improve the game, also the tech tree needing a rework is pretty undeniable i think.

Ehh, can't say I agree.

The game's mainly all about letting the player do as they will, exploring, discovering how things work exactly, and so on. As a result, the tree is generally built in the same vein, other than any unlock conditions; it's your choice what to research and when, and how/where (or if) you want to implement them, as well as figure out how. I don't think that's disrespecting our time - if I had to choose, I'd say it's the opposite, actually.

[mike]

You don't "NEED" intersteller logistics to transport the titanium. And, you can get some on the starting planet. Not much, and it is annoying, but you can.

[robfilrhijar]

Took me a while to learn how you can hold a lot of stuff in your hand and ferry it back to some storage for science. On the plus side i got the achievement for titanium ingots dropped in space, ah memories. Its a great game that will challenge you many ways.

[Draco18s]

OP has a point, there are definitely things you can research which don't have "you need X before you research this" which grants you the recipes for things you can't make because its input material is elsewhere in the tree.

Lets see... I took a screenshot... ah here we go.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Draco18s/screenshot/2304218742173154136/

[Jack Sparrow]

This post is absolute cringe, do you run to the forum of every game you play and dont yet understand to throw all your awful suggestions and complaints around? you are SUPPOSED to manually go and get the first batch of titanium to progress to yellow science, its an absolutely intended part of the game. 🤡

[Marakith]

The game encourages exploration... as previously stated, you can spend long enough bashing rocks on the start planet and get both silicon and titanium without ever leaving the planet, it's just the slow manual way to do it.
But when you get the ability to sail across to other planets... why not do just that, explore.
I'm sure most people do. Set up a small miner on the new planet you visit, feed it to a box, and carry as much as you can back with you using space in your own inventory... and you've already got most of what you need to research ILS.
It only takes a few minutes to fly across again and empty that box if you need a second trip.

Now if they gave you ILS before you can sail and can set foot on another planet, or have the ability to mine the materials / creaft the materials needed to make the ILS then early research is no use it to you. It makes sense that it follows PLS - teaching you benefits that ILS will bring, smelting abilities, and sail abilities.

[Daerious]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

OP has a point, there are definitely things you can research which don't have "you need X before you research this" which grants you the recipes for things you can't make because its input material is elsewhere in the tree.

Lets see... I took a screenshot... ah here we go.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/Draco18s/screenshot/2304218742173154136/

What would be beneficial even for moderately experienced players when examining a new technology or upgrade to research is a "Recommend { xxxxx }" warning in yellow similar to the existing "Require { xxxxx }" one that is in red. This would at least highlight to all players that, while there is not a strict requirement, it would be wise to have the recommended technology or upgrade already known. Unlike the "Require" tag, the "Recommend" tag would not prevent the player from adding that into their research queue. Just like the "Require" tags, the "Recommend" tags would disappear if the player had already researched all the recommended technologies or upgrades.

I know that in one of my previous games, I tried to rush Interplanetary Logistics System but discovered after completing its research that I needed about a half a dozen other technologies before I could begin their construction. Even knowing that technology and upgrades do not always warn you of their subordinate requirements, there have been several times with the Rise of the Dark Fog update in which I have accidentally researched things out of order. For example in my current game, I researched Battlefield Analysis Base before I knew both Semiconductor Material and Smelting Purification -- difficult to build those bases without using Microcrystalline Components that in turn require High-purity Silicon.

For my game, it was very important to have those Battlefield Analysis Bases and Prototypes / Precision Drones since some of my game objectives are to complete the main quest without using any Turrets or loosing any buildings. While researching them in the incorrect order was only a minor setback and quickly resolved within 20 minutes, it could have been disastrous had I been playing on a much higher difficulty level.

[darkestkhan]

Originally posted by teron:

Trick is you setup early a titanium smelting line (since bars are more space efficient then ore) which dumps into a storage box.

Then come back later with a mostly empty inventory (remember to research inventory expansion upgrades) to grab all those finished bars to manually ferry back. You can also cheese it slightly by hand carrying a bunch of ingots.

Hand carrying being when you click on the inventory in the box to load it into Icarus’s hand, then fly back to your starting planet. Usually a full inventory + hand carry is enough titanium to craft the research cubes + hardened titanium for your first two interstellar logistics towers + some ships.
Worse case you have to make 2 trips.

You also want to then research the upgrades that improve the drone/logistic ships carrying capacity and speed. The initial techs only effect drones.

And the proliferator cuts down on how much you need to move. Either way, you need what, 2K titanium bars? At most two trips unless you are screwing around.

[Michael Meitbual]

I think you're overstating the problem a bit. I had some similar confusion - as an example, I need blue, red, and yellow science to unlock the warp item but I can't even queue it up until I've completed the previous 2 steps.

FORTUNATELY the DSP devs seem to be really good at "give the player the information they need" and if something in the tech tree has a pre-req, there is literally a line connecting it that you can follow.