Sagat in Street Fighter 6

[BARDOCK THE SAIYAN]

i'll buy the game when Sagat arrive in street fighter 6

[Unmotivated]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Originally posted by Unmotivated:

i wouldn't say SF5 was his worst iteration, but it was pretty different. he lost his doubles, and his normals (which was a SF5 game issue, not specific to Sagat) were stubby as ♥♥♥♥. however, he did have all of his keep away moves, and his heavy punch and kicks at least retained their long range, so he was still a very effective zoner.

unfortunately, as i stated before, i can't see Sagat surviving a transition to SF6. zoning overall has been neutered thanks to the Drive system being what it is, and even Guile, the quintessential defensive zoner, has had a bunch of additional target combos and additional stuff to make him less of a hard zoner and more of a set play character. Sagat will likely recieve much of the same, otherwise he'll be the lowest tier character simply by the game's design around the Drive system. Drive parry kills projectile zoning as a playstyle and i kind of hate it.

There is certainly something to this argument.

I've played Guile mostly as a main since SF2, and I am having a lot of trouble adjusting to him in this. In a game that focuses on maximizing damage off only a few touches per round his gameplan is not as much about counter poking as it is hitconfirming into drive cancels and maximizing damage.

A lot of the moves are there is some of the "feeling", but the drive mechanic overshadows that pretty materially. You have to work twice as hard if you're not going to play the SF6 game. Sagat would have to be similar of he's going to work.

Exactly my point. Sagat basically HAS to come in with significant changes, otherwise he ends up like Remmy: a parry victim with no fallback tools.

Like i said, i'm not fond of this "all rounder" design in modern fighting games. SF6, Tekken 8, Guilty Gear Strive, they're all working around universal mechanics and moveset variance that makes characters no longer feel mechanically unique and have no true weaknesses. If Tekken 8's Heat isn't making defense a detriment through insane chip damage, then Street Fighter 6 is making everything plus with Drive Rush or Drive Impact cancel.

At this point, i just want a fighting game that's not so universally charged. If Virtua Fighter 5 and 6 can be the anti-modern fighters i'm looking for, then i'll happily start playing those. This is just nucking futs.

[okey]

I think you're going to be disappointed with Virtua FIghter because it was patient zero for this type of fighting game design. It may not have super meters (yet), but if you're looking for variety in play styles then you're looking in the wrong place.

[Castyles]

Originally posted by tekkennoobx:

Sagat was the most boring SFV character why do people want him?

Payback for how good he was in SFIV.

...

Anyway. Not having him is wack but I wouldn't want him now. Too soon.

[Reffy]

Sagat is the man.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by okey:

I think you're going to be disappointed with Virtua FIghter because it was patient zero for this type of fighting game design. It may not have super meters (yet), but if you're looking for variety in play styles then you're looking in the wrong place.

I don't think I've read anything on this forum that I disagree with harder than this.

[itzDerrio]

you're gonna be waiting a long time for this roster to get any better; might as well not even own the game. im still waiting for - Adon, Sakura, Cody, Ibuki, Birdie, Sagat, Guy, Mika, Evil Ryu, Oni, etc

[Paratech2008]

I'm not the only Ibuki fan?

[Nooneyouknow]

Originally posted by Unmotivated:

then Street Fighter 6 is making everything plus with Drive Rush or Drive Impact cancel.

SF6 using drive rush to make normals plus on block is a nerf to normal frame data from prior SFs. SF6 characters have generally 0-1 normal that's plus without DR. USF4 Cammy has 9, Ken has 7, Ryu has 4. SF5 Cammy has 5, Ken has 5, Ryu has 5. 3s has nearly everything being plus on block, and SF2 and Alpha 2 use the same frame data for hit/block, so something is only unsafe there if it's always unsafe or knocks down on hit. Alpha 3 looks like SF4/5 where a large chunk of each characters moves are plus.

[ⁱʳ☯ⁿ ❥ᵃⁿᵍᵉˡˢ]

Originally posted by BARDOCK THE SAIYAN:

i'll buy the game when Sagat arrive in street fighter 6

𝘚𝘢𝘨𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘳𝘳𝘪𝘷𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘶𝘴𝘶𝘢𝘭 ....... 𝘋𝘓𝘊

𝐈 𝐆𝐔𝐄𝐒𝐒 𝐘𝐎𝐔 𝐃𝐈𝐃𝐍'𝐓 𝐒𝐄𝐄 𝐓𝐇𝐀𝐓 𝐃𝐈𝐃 𝐘😡𝐔✋🏻

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsMxmYW0ci4

[Tr3m0r]

Originally posted by Unmotivated:

as much as i'd love him, his playstyle wouldn't work in SF6.

he's got the same handicap as Guile did, where with him being designed as a far screen zoner, Drive parry basically nulls his entire gameplan and he would have to be reworked into another rushdown character.

this is kind of my core issue with Drive as a system: while it does promote gameplay interactions, it only promotes ONE kind of interaction, and essentially nullifies zoning as a playstyle because of how it functions. there's no real playstyle variance here as a result because zoning in itself can't work. it's the same reason Remy sucked in 3rd Strike, because while he was a very cool character, his kit being designed around zoning meant that he was crippled due to the parry mechanic.

i want Sagat in SF6, because he's been my main since SF2 Turbo, but the fact is that his gameplan would have to be reworked completely, and if that's the case, then he's Sagat in design and presentation only.

That's a really well articulated analysis that makes a lot of sense. Nice.

[Unmotivated]

Originally posted by Huckzter:

I bought SF6 today and I'm very disappointed that Sagat isn't there. It is a mystery to me why the standard characters from SF2 from back then are not all included. I see that as a kind of duty that they have to be there. Here the cow is probably still milked very heavily.

The protagonists were all in the base roster, but the "bad guys" were all made into DLC since 5, cuz yknow, people love villains, and publishers know we'll pay for them.

Besides, i don't want to know how hard the system mechanics will screw over my playstyle with Sagat, cuz it already ruined Guile for me as a zoner, and frankly i'm not very eager to see Sagat go the way of Ryu or Akuma.

[Peddie]

Originally posted by Huckzter:

I bought SF6 today and I'm very disappointed that Sagat isn't there. It is a mystery to me why the standard characters from SF2 from back then are not all included. I see that as a kind of duty that they have to be there. Here the cow is probably still milked very heavily.

I'd instead argue that there really isn't a need to have all the SF2 characters in every Street Fighter. Blanka, Honda and Dhalsim have all been bottom 4 popularity picks in SF6 for basically the entire game's life. So I don't think it'd hurt to either just not have them in SF7 or move them to late season DLC slots instead. People sure love to say how dear and important ALL the world warriors are to them but the data seems to say otherwise. In SFV they similarly had less than 4% pickrate between the three of them.

[Unmotivated]

Originally posted by Peddie:

Originally posted by Huckzter:

I bought SF6 today and I'm very disappointed that Sagat isn't there. It is a mystery to me why the standard characters from SF2 from back then are not all included. I see that as a kind of duty that they have to be there. Here the cow is probably still milked very heavily.

I'd instead argue that there really isn't a need to have all the SF2 characters in every Street Fighter. Blanka, Honda and Dhalsim have all been bottom 4 popularity picks in SF6 for basically the entire game's life. So I don't think it'd hurt to either just not have them in SF7 or move them to late season DLC slots instead. People sure love to say how dear and important ALL the world warriors are to them but the data seems to say otherwise. In SFV they similarly had less than 4% pickrate between the three of them.

And yet, the same people not playing them would complain that they aren't in the base roster and slam the game for it, or did we just all collectively agree SF3's failure didn't happen as a result of abandoning 80% of Street Fighter's core identifying cast?

That would be like saying we should get rid of the Mishima's in Tekken, or get rid of Sol Badguy and Ky Kiske in Guilty Gear. It's an iconic cast, whether we play them or not. They're the essence of Street Fighter as a brand.

I'd argue instead of keeping them bottom by leaving them the same, Capcom should instead rework and update these characters so that they're more interesting to play. I'd rather have that than cut them out entirely. Anybody saying the World Warriors aren't integral to Street Fighter needs to double check what "core cast" and "franchise identity" means.

[Peddie]

I mean even within Street Fighter II's grand narrative, Honda, Blanka and Dhalsim were really more side characters. And they certainly never topped any popularity polls even if you had held one back in '96, or even '92.

As such I don't think your comparison is a valid one because Ky and Sol are always very popular amongst GG fans. As are the Mishima characters, they're the literal poster children of their respective franchises. You'd have had made a more apt comparison if you had said that Kliff should be in every Guilty Gear because he was part of the first game's roster but uh... *checks notes* he's hasn't been around for the past two games, and both games were received very well all the same. (I'm similarly convinced season 2 could've been just as hype without Dictator)

I also don't think that "Leaving out the three least popular World Warriors" is the same as "leaving out all of them", yes people hated that SFIII removed most of the old cast, something I've brought up several times in the past.But I think it would've had a much warmer welcome if it had "just" added Chun-Li, Guile, and Zangief or even Cammy on top of Ryu and Ken in the first release, rather than going through the effort of getting all eight in. Hell, Street Fighter Alpha had a warm welcome and that just had Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Sagat, Bibson and Akuma come back. Thus showing that you really don't need the entire SF2 cast back to be a well liked game. Just a sufficient amount of decently popular characters.

Call me cold hearted but I really don't think that "Oh they were in SF2" is enough justification to get a guaranteed spot in the default roster of the next game if you struggle to even have 1% of the player pool using you, when there's only 24 characters. You'd probably make more people happy bringing Sakura, Dudley or C. Viper into SF7's base roster than you would with any of those three.

Franchises evolve, and while honouring the past is important, to me it doesn't make sense to honour in its entirety when pretty blatantly a lot of the fandom just isn't interested in them.

So I really, sincerely, doubt Capcom would be in a lot of trouble if Dhalsim was a year 3 DLC character in SF7 when in the now five times as many people are playing Jamie instead.

[Castyles]

Originally posted by Huckzter:

I bought SF6 today and I'm very disappointed that Sagat isn't there. It is a mystery to me why the standard characters from SF2 from back then are not all included. I see that as a kind of duty that they have to be there. Here the cow is probably still milked very heavily.

Your fault for not reasearching about the game first...

Originally posted by Unmotivated:

I'd argue instead of keeping them bottom by leaving them the same, Capcom should instead rework and update these characters so that they're more interesting to play. I'd rather have that than cut them out entirely. Anybody saying the World Warriors aren't integral to Street Fighter needs to double check what "core cast" and "franchise identity" means.

Good idea.

They should buff Dhalsim's speed and nerf Blanka's stupidity, for starters.