How long until Mai gets buffed?

[Joeycentral]

Honestly I am liking her, but she kinda feels a lot like Terry when he first came out. I would like to see Capcom give her more of a horizontal movement for heavy DP. It is bad enough none of her normals have no plus on block moves. I feel like just that change alone would make a huge difference and I do hope Mai gets the Terry treatment.

[kiteless 凧無し]

Mai is definitely a lot better than Terry was at release

I think she's a decent character, maybe not a top 5 character but she's definitely not weak. Last time I looked at CFN Kazunoko was the top ranked player with Mai

Funnily enough the no.2 was a Terry player, Kinchoryu

[Joeycentral]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

Mai is definitely a lot better than Terry was at release

I think she's a decent character, maybe not a top 5 character but she's definitely not weak. Last time I looked at CFN Kazunoko was the top ranked player with Mai

Funnily enough the no.2 was a Terry player, Kinchoryu

There's a streamer who is high master with her, which shows he is incredibly skilled and knowledgeable at the game. He basically complains that she is underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast and the reasoning is because of her mediocre DP and how meter hungry she is.

[kiteless 凧無し]

Originally posted by Joeycentral:

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

Mai is definitely a lot better than Terry was at release

I think she's a decent character, maybe not a top 5 character but she's definitely not weak. Last time I looked at CFN Kazunoko was the top ranked player with Mai

Funnily enough the no.2 was a Terry player, Kinchoryu

There's a streamer who is high master with her, which shows he is incredibly skilled and knowledgeable at the game. He basically complains that she is underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast and the reasoning is because of her mediocre DP and how meter hungry she is.

Her DP is decent, especially her OD version. it's one of the very best uppercuts in the game

[Joeycentral]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

Originally posted by Joeycentral:

There's a streamer who is high master with her, which shows he is incredibly skilled and knowledgeable at the game. He basically complains that she is underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast and the reasoning is because of her mediocre DP and how meter hungry she is.

Her DP is decent, especially her OD version. it's one of the very best uppercuts in the game

True. So what can Capcom do to buff Mai so she can compete with the best characters in the game?

[Unlucky Genius]

Mai feels like she's in a weird place, her fans give her good pressure/combos but you basically have to use OD to get it out relatively safely. It feels really awkward not having any real frametraps or normal links, but giving her plus moves could make her oppressive in combination with her fan bounce.

On top of this it's easy for a lot of characters to disrespect her fan pressure and she loses the fireball war pretty badly. Her only real anti-fireball tools are j.214P (slow, no variations to the angle, almost always minus on block) or 236236k (costs 2 meter and isn't great without flame stocks).

Right now the only way to play her is OD fan > drive rush for pressure, or just footsies and confirm off a whiff punish. Her pressure on block sucks without spending drive guage. Her footsies are decent but some buttons are oddly stubby. Her meaties are decent but usually require manual timing.

I think it's safe to say that she just doesn't get to establish a strong gameplan as easily as most characters do. I think some minor buffs would make her feel much better to play, but I'm not sure what exactly they could buff without making her too strong. I'm by no means a great player though so I could be missing something about her.

For what it's worth, top players like Kazunoko and Punk will make any character look strong, but most of them seem to agree she's underwhelming.

[Joeycentral]

Originally posted by Unlucky Genius:

Mai feels like she's in a weird place, her fans give her good pressure/combos but you basically have to use OD to get it out relatively safely. It feels really awkward not having any real frametraps or normal links, but giving her plus moves could make her oppressive in combination with her fan bounce.

On top of this it's easy for a lot of characters to disrespect her fan pressure and she loses the fireball war pretty badly. Her only real anti-fireball tools are j.214P (slow, no variations to the angle, almost always minus on block) or 236236k (costs 2 meter and isn't great without flame stocks).

Right now the only way to play her is OD fan > drive rush for pressure, or just footsies and confirm off a whiff punish. Her pressure on block sucks without spending drive guage. Her footsies are decent but some buttons are oddly stubby. Her meaties are decent but usually require manual timing.

I think it's safe to say that she just doesn't get to establish a strong gameplan as easily as most characters do. I think some minor buffs would make her feel much better to play, but I'm not sure what exactly they could buff without making her too strong. I'm by no means a great player though so I could be missing something about her.

For what it's worth, top players like Kazunoko and Punk will make any character look strong, but most of them seem to agree she's underwhelming.

I feel Mai can be good if the player playing her has good neutral and footsies. Problem is those of us who have bad neutral are having a pretty bad time right now due to constantly being burnt out (lose 50% drive gage just from one low forward drc combo). So for players like me, I feel like I am a free win most of the time.

[Unlucky Genius]

Originally posted by Joeycentral:

Originally posted by Unlucky Genius:

Mai feels like she's in a weird place, her fans give her good pressure/combos but you basically have to use OD to get it out relatively safely. It feels really awkward not having any real frametraps or normal links, but giving her plus moves could make her oppressive in combination with her fan bounce.

On top of this it's easy for a lot of characters to disrespect her fan pressure and she loses the fireball war pretty badly. Her only real anti-fireball tools are j.214P (slow, no variations to the angle, almost always minus on block) or 236236k (costs 2 meter and isn't great without flame stocks).

Right now the only way to play her is OD fan > drive rush for pressure, or just footsies and confirm off a whiff punish. Her pressure on block sucks without spending drive guage. Her footsies are decent but some buttons are oddly stubby. Her meaties are decent but usually require manual timing.

I think it's safe to say that she just doesn't get to establish a strong gameplan as easily as most characters do. I think some minor buffs would make her feel much better to play, but I'm not sure what exactly they could buff without making her too strong. I'm by no means a great player though so I could be missing something about her.

For what it's worth, top players like Kazunoko and Punk will make any character look strong, but most of them seem to agree she's underwhelming.

I feel Mai can be good if the player playing her has good neutral and footsies. Problem is those of us who have bad neutral are having a pretty bad time right now due to constantly being burnt out (lose 50% drive gage just from one low forward drc combo). So for players like me, I feel like I am a free win most of the time.

I mostly agree, but I think players with great footsies can work with any character in this game. It's not like she isn't viable or something, she just feels awkward to play. Most characters have frametraps and hitconfirms with normal strings. Mai has to spend drive gauge for any type of frametrap and can't link any normals (aside from chaining lights) without drive guage or counterhit (sometimes meaties or jump-ins if you want to count those).

I feel like if they wanted to make her this reliant on her fans then she should at least be able to compete in fireball wars better. Dealing with the shoto fireball/dp gameplan feels awful for her, and the reward for getting in isn't that great. Most of the time you spend 3 drive gauge for 1 mix up attempt and then just go back to waiting for a whiff punish.

[kiteless 凧無し]

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

[Joeycentral]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

That's the problem: my neutral sucks a**. I feel this isnt a skill that can be learnt, but rather something you either have or dont have. Sadly, I just am not gifted genetically to have this skill. So I depend a lot on her fireballs and throw loops to win.

[Unlucky Genius]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

This is just a summary of the complaints I and others have already listed here. To put it simply let's compare her to any of the shotos since she has most of the same tools.

Shotos can zone better than Mai. Shotos have similar or better DPs. Shotos can pressure up close without spending resources. Shotos have a similar or better whiff punish game.

Do you see why people feel like Mai is weak? I'll be extra clear that I don't think she's bottom tier, or that tier lists even matter outside of top level play. It just feels like Mai trades a lot of strengths that other characters get for a fireball that can bounce. While the bouncing fireball is great, I don't know if it's enough to make up for everything she trades for it.

I appreciate Capcoms attempt to give her something unique so she's doesn't just feel like another standard shoto character, I just think she needs some adjustments to feel like a solid character. I'm prepared for someone to tell me I should just play better though, which I guess is valid even if it misses the point.

[Peddie]

Originally posted by Joeycentral:

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

That's the problem: my neutral sucks a**. I feel this isnt a skill that can be learnt, but rather something you either have or dont have. Sadly, I just am not gifted genetically to have this skill. So I depend a lot on her fireballs and throw loops to win.

I struggle to imagine how you reached the conclusion that playing "honest neutral" is a genetic ability rather than a skillset that can be learned like any other.

As long as you're cognisant of your own mistakes and are willing to examine your replays with a critical eye you can find what you need to to improve your decision making rather than bouncing around between characters in the hopes of finding one that just carries you hard enough to get you your desired winrate.

[Unlucky Genius]

Originally posted by Joeycentral:

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

That's the problem: my neutral sucks a**. I feel this isnt a skill that can be learnt, but rather something you either have or dont have. Sadly, I just am not gifted genetically to have this skill. So I depend a lot on her fireballs and throw loops to win.

You can definitely learn neutral, but it's a lot more intuition based than learning combos or pressure strings. Create spacing traps, whiff a light to bait out an opponent whiffing a bigger button, end your turn early and walk back to bait out mashing, focus on maintaining a distance from your opponent that's just outside of their effective range. Those are all top level ideas for how to play neutral, but learning how to apply them is much harder and simply requires experience.

Before you can get to any of that though, you have to establish that you can anti-air your opponent and counter their DI, otherwise you never get to play neutral in the first place.

[theenemy]

To learn neutral without instinct is like to learn basketball without height.

[kiteless 凧無し]

Originally posted by Unlucky Genius:

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

You can't win a fireball war with Mai, so stop playing her like a zoner

just play the footsie game and work from there, if you need close range pressure, you have the OD fan.

This is just a summary of the complaints I and others have already listed here. To put it simply let's compare her to any of the shotos since she has most of the same tools.

Shotos can zone better than Mai. Shotos have similar or better DPs. Shotos can pressure up close without spending resources. Shotos have a similar or better whiff punish game.

Do you see why people feel like Mai is weak? I'll be extra clear that I don't think she's bottom tier, or that tier lists even matter outside of top level play. It just feels like Mai trades a lot of strengths that other characters get for a fireball that can bounce. While the bouncing fireball is great, I don't know if it's enough to make up for everything she trades for it.

I appreciate Capcoms attempt to give her something unique so she's doesn't just feel like another standard shoto character, I just think she needs some adjustments to feel like a solid character. I'm prepared for someone to tell me I should just play better though, which I guess is valid even if it misses the point.

I've just said she isn't a zoner, why you comparing her to Ryu. If you're playing Mai against Ryu, don't even bother throwing fans from a distance without the fire buff

She can only start her fan shenanigans once she's in your face or knocks you down, you can charge a fan of a low poke or standing HP etc., or throw OD fans up close and go for mix ups. Only when you have the fire buff can you truly zone with her

Honestly, she's probably my best character right now, she's a lot of fun

[Unlucky Genius]

Originally posted by kiteless 凧無し:

Originally posted by Unlucky Genius:

This is just a summary of the complaints I and others have already listed here. To put it simply let's compare her to any of the shotos since she has most of the same tools.

Shotos can zone better than Mai. Shotos have similar or better DPs. Shotos can pressure up close without spending resources. Shotos have a similar or better whiff punish game.

Do you see why people feel like Mai is weak? I'll be extra clear that I don't think she's bottom tier, or that tier lists even matter outside of top level play. It just feels like Mai trades a lot of strengths that other characters get for a fireball that can bounce. While the bouncing fireball is great, I don't know if it's enough to make up for everything she trades for it.

I appreciate Capcoms attempt to give her something unique so she's doesn't just feel like another standard shoto character, I just think she needs some adjustments to feel like a solid character. I'm prepared for someone to tell me I should just play better though, which I guess is valid even if it misses the point.

I've just said she isn't a zoner, why you comparing her to Ryu.

She can only start her fan shenanigans once she's in your face or knocks you down, you can charge a fan of a low poke or standing HP etc., or throw OD fans up close and go for mix ups. Only when you have the fire buff can you truly zone with her

Honestly, she's probably my best character right now, she's a lot of fun

I said why I was making the comparison in the post you replied to. I don't think most people would say Ryu is a zoner but if he is then he's a zoner with better meterless close range pressure than her, as well as a meterless anti-fireball tool. I didn't specify Ryu either btw, the comparison is true for any of the shotos.

Poke into charge fan is fake, it loses to almost every low forward on reaction. So again, we're back to "she can't zone, and she can't pressure without spending resources while other characters can, therefore she feels weak to most people."

Also note that I don't expect her to be a zoner, just that if she's so reliant on drive gauge to play close then it's odd that she can't zone either. Drive gauge is a powerful tool for any character, but she feels more reliant on it, and she doesn't excel at footsies compared to most characters either, so she ends up feeling like a generalist character that's weaker than other generalist characters.