So Manon sucks, right?

[Dazeychain]

Her fastest command grab loses to pretty much everything including normal throw (so your opponent can OS a throw escape), she needs to land it 4 times to get decent damage, her level 3 is absurdly easy to jump after the flash and her normals and other specials are fine but not great. I think she's really fun but I keep asking myself "Why not just play Gief instead?

[Snobby Hobo]

Publicado originalmente por Loveshocker:

You know who else can strike/throw mixup? Literally everyone. Some of them even have command grabs that do damage without needing to be landed 5 times or projectiles to use in neutral. She's refreshing because she's not a gorilla or a drive rush addict but those are the same reasons she feels so weak.

Even her fastest grab is trivially easy to beat by mashing any button. Just don't block against her. Her strike damage isn't good enough to win

So why is she good? Because her kicks hve nice range? Because newbies who can't deal with grapplers get stomped by her in low ranks? Because a pro player played her on stream for a few minutes and did okay? Because she loses half her MUs but doesn't get "completely stomped"? That's just mediocrity.

Why do you keep the pedantic tone despite clearly having no clue what you are talking about? Who are you trying to convince here? Are you just venting now?

First of all I want to disregard that data sheet you seem to cling to. It's at best a vague indication of what is happening. It's games Master players played in general - and that in an unsettled meta. The actual ceiling of characters will vary VERY wildly from it.

Manon is DESIGNED around pulling players into punishable range where she has multiple options, like Luke's Nosebreaker does. Other than on wakeup or somehow managing to get real close other characters cannot do this. Manon can set up this situation from neutral - which is very rare.

Manon has a standing overhead - which is again very rare. She has an insane anti-air on par with Guile's Flashkick. Very good range on her normals. Very good corner carry. Strong EX options. She's just... really good in neutral. I'm not really sure what else to tell you. This combined with the fact that despite you claiming "grab bad" (which is obviously not true - her command grab is just as fast as any other and has similar range, hitgrab can be comboed into) she becomes more scary with each grab make her a formidable character.

The only true weakness Manon suffers is that she is optimal at a slower match, whereas all the "ME GO FAST DR111!!!"-characters are at least competitive tier. But again: Manon is pretty good at deciding the pace of a match.

[Dio]

I think what makes people hate the character is that she is very good at punishing, especially at low ranks. If your opponent are just throwing out buttons all the time, all you need to do is block and do some neutral jumps to find openings for your command throws, and she is also crazy good at countering jumpins and crouch blocks. If you cant adapt to her, she will run you over.

She cracks under pressure and to frame traps, which is usually hard for your average player to apply without mashing. I understand that people feel she is cheap, but in reality you only have yourself to blame if you lose to her since she her whole theme is to transform your weaknesses to her strengths. Definitely a good character but with very obvious weaknesses.

[omegawop]

OP obviously tried her out and got bodied and has to blame the character.

[Archiduque Motoko]

You'll have worse problems with Gief since it seems like your problem is not being able to set up the situations for your command grabs to land, work on your ground game.

[Kamu Da Finka]

I assume she'll be worse once they adjust her medals not carrying over into round 2, but due to that she's pretty good right now. Zangief is the better grappler though for sure.

[Gaxkang]

Publicado originalmente por Gyoza Fairy:

I assume she'll be worse once they adjust her medals not carrying over into round 2, but due to that she's pretty good right now. Zangief is the better grappler though for sure.

if they do that she'll essentially be neutered. while real skilled players could still make her work, if they just want wins they will get them easier with someone else

[Mist]

She's better than Gief (who is not even that good) in almost every possible way tho.

[Hidebehind]

In high ranked matches, Manon has no more than three tokens.
Let's just say that if your mistake allows Marisa to use her fighting stance, you're screwed! Enjoy taking 2,500 damage! Manon is very easy to punish for her ridiculous attempts to be a wrestler. Concentrate on her strengths and just forget about that grab. The less Manon uses her grab, the more of a problem for her opponent she becomes.

[Valsung]

Many of Manon's strengths are easily beaten if the opponent knows even the basics of how she functions -- the character is essentially a knowledge check roadblock of sorts.

Touching an opponent with her command grab is an obstacle in and of itself, which is why its carried in-between matches. Makoto may have only a pixel's worth of distance for hers, but her dash is so ridiculous, that opponents actually had a threat to contend with. When players fall victim to Manon's command grab, its cos they didn't mash jab; or jump; or even just grab. The intent behind the held medal count is to intimidate opponents, and that's about it. It is an 'easier' to digest version of Makoto's dash in to command grab for the opponent.

As long as the opponent knows that the command grab is not instant and has low range, you can pretty much taunt a Manon player all day, cos her normals center around shimmy and counter; she does not have a single tool that puts her on the offensive; JUST the idea of what she is capable of.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Go and play Gief for a bit and Manon will feel like S-tier.

[Snobby Hobo]

Publicado originalmente por Hidebehind:

In high ranked matches, Manon has no more than three tokens.
Let's just say that if your mistake allows Marisa to use her fighting stance, you're screwed! Enjoy taking 2,500 damage! Manon is very easy to punish for her ridiculous attempts to be a wrestler. Concentrate on her strengths and just forget about that grab. The less Manon uses her grab, the more of a problem for her opponent she becomes.

This is absolutely not true. Again look at iDom's matches. He VERY frequently has more than 3 medals.

Sure her command grab is hard to set up, but her hitgrab isn't at all and it still gives you medals. I do agree with Valsung that the primary leverage you get from medals is being intimidating, but that REALLY helps Manon as a character. Unlike Zief Manon is totally content with a long drawn out game. A frightened opponent is exactly what she benefits from.

Edit: typo

[Kamu Da Finka]

Publicado originalmente por Gaxkang:

Publicado originalmente por Gyoza Fairy:

I assume she'll be worse once they adjust her medals not carrying over into round 2, but due to that she's pretty good right now. Zangief is the better grappler though for sure.

if they do that she'll essentially be neutered. while real skilled players could still make her work, if they just want wins they will get them easier with someone else

She's got mixups. I'm really not seeing the majority of Manon players use them, but she's got em. I agree though and Zangief is the more straight forward hard hitting grappler.

[Snobby Hobo]

Publicado originalmente por Gyoza Fairy:

Publicado originalmente por Gaxkang:

if they do that she'll essentially be neutered. while real skilled players could still make her work, if they just want wins they will get them easier with someone else

She's got mixups. I'm really not seeing the majority of Manon players use them, but she's got em. I agree though and Zangief is the more straight forward hard hitting grappler.

But if you think away the grabs (which is a bit weird on grapples but bear with me) Manon is wayyyy better. Her anti-air is probably the most consistent in the entire game, standing overhead, good range on her normals, good footsies. Also her first super is probably the best wakeup super in the entire game - even if it fails it completely resets neutral.

Her damage is vastly exaggerated. I mean at 4 medals she starts doing as much damage as a Lily throw - and about half the games have her at that much. So she has to WORK to get where Lily is while Lily has the absolute easiest setup into it imaginable (AND oki).

[Dazeychain]

Weren't you just insulting me for not agreeing with you that she's the best in the game? Having to "WORK" to get to where another low tier character is is not an indicator of a strong character

I'm "handwaving" the answers because they're not good answers. Nowhere did I say there's literally nothing good about her, so pointing out that she has 1 good normal means nothing. And the "data I'm clinging to that you agreed with five minutes ago indicates that she's not that good, so why should that change my mind?

I think she's fun so I don't need her to be top tier, but this is some absurd coping even for me. She's only a threat if you have no idea how to deal with grapplers.

Oh wait you think a command grab and a hit grab are the same thing, why am I even reading your replies

[Heinrich VF]

Her throws wouldn't even hurt my 93 year old grandma. That's how weak they look. Manon is a joke character