Once again on the topic of MODERN vs CLASSIC

[NeZQuick]

QUICK EDIT: I ranted a bit, discussed a bit, think I already simmered down - that being said heres another question: any tips/tricks you guys know on how to deal with Modern players specifically? Like DP baiting is one I've heard before.
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Feel free to see this as just another keyboard warrior nitpicking but I'm kinda bored today and feel in a writers mood so I'll share some thoughts.

First of all a little bit of a background check on myself:
In short - I grew up with your classic fireballs and DP's.
I'm well over my 30's now and played fighting games for at least 20 of those years, albeit only just mashing my way through arcade/story. Most of my time was spent in Tekken3 or a whole bunch of Guilty Gear games, and some years ago I picked up Skull GIrls and thats where I started actually 'learning' the game, footsies, combos, frame data all that good stuff.

Though the learning only lasted for about 400 hrs and then fell off untill I found this weird free to play indie fighter [which i forgot the name of - its the game with robots that got bought out by RIOT and is now becoming project L / 2XKO].
I found that having my specials on a specific key with a direction and that they were on a cooldown, was pretty dang fun!
It was a different way to do combos and stuff, but it never felt CHEAP, especially since the entire game was built around this and there were no 'classic' controls to play with.

Enter DragonBallFighterZ - an amazing game for a DB and fighting game fan as myself, and it also had theese "auto combos" for newer players to use so they can also enjoy the game BUT using them was basically a death sentence vs someone who actually knew what they were doing and they immediately tagged you as a scrub, not to mention the dmg lvls on them being laughable at best.
I played it for quite some time and dropped it again not feeling the drive to go back to properly learning only to dive super deep into the lab with the release of SF6, and here is where the nice story ends, and angry rant begins.

Modern controls in SF6 are a CHEAP way to play the game - comparing to FPS games it's literally aim assist on crack.
"It's lower damage and less options!"
It's still competetive damage with enough options for even pros to use it thank you very much.

Today I tested out MODERN for the very first time in combo trials and just imagine the look of disgust, shock and even sadness when I saw that f.e. Cammy's intermediate 10 is pretty much just mashing one button, Zangief's lvl3 super is holding a direction and pressing a button - THE DOUBLE CIRCLE INPUT GOT REPLACED BY HOLDING ONE - ONE!!! DIRECTION! - I think it was DeeJay's later intermediate trial that also only requires mashing to get past, not to mention his lvl2 always just automatically going through, charge characters dont even need to press forward/up for the move to come out! They can just glue their downback down and press "special"!

You CANNOT tell me that is not cheap as all hell.
Again "bUt iTs leSS daAaAMaGe" - it's not even halved my dude, it's cheap as all hell, I rather fight actual cheaters with auto DI's.

Judge me all you want, I main Ken and finishing his trials on CLASSIC actually took me days if not weeks (I'm still learning timings etc. and I have old bones) but when I tried them with MODERN? I swear to everything holy, I finished the entire thing in less than 10 minutes.

I get it, it's a way to include newer players without making the game seem like you need 200+ hours to be able to do a normal>special>super combo - but if new players want to play a baby game for babies then don't let them near ranked, its a scawy place with sweatlords, babies shouldn't be allowed there.

Yes, in a way this is a salty rant about MODERN players on ranked, when I lose to someone who plays Classic I take the L, I learn what I can from losing a match to the better player - but when I lose to someone who plays MODERN, someone who has their reversal, their antiair DP, their super, on one button? I just can't help but feel cheated out of my pants, even if they're actually a much better, much more experienced player overall, if I see that orange M - I'm gonna look at you with disgust for how cheaply you decided to play the game.

"Modern and classic will never be split on ranked because playerbase" yeah unfortunately that's 100% true, we can rant and fight against it all we want but a split will never happen - so all I can do is continue blocking and '1 and done' people who play with MODERN even if I completely and utterly destroy them in the first match (doesn't happen often, I'm not that good, but I get my fair share of Perfects).

Finally, a quick message to all those who do play MODERN:
Don't you dare tell me you know how to combo, I saw how much mashing effort it takes to do the same thing that requires 50 different inputs on Classic.
Don't come anywhere near me when I'm doing battlehub matches untill you at least honestly TRY to learn proper Classic controls, and if you really WANT to learn them, I'll even help you out as best I can.

I hope you enjoy the game in your own way, but I also hope I will never have to play against your kind ever again, and I hope you find the time and guts to learn and enjoy the true controls.

P.S. I guess I should also explain "If you think modern is so easy why don't you use it yourself?!"
First, I'm an old fart who LIKES the classic controls, I feel accomplished if I get that game winning reversal/dp/combo. I also grew up with theese controls, they're easy for me to do at this point so why should I learn a new control scheme? Yeah it's a control scheme like any other, it still requires learning, but when I tried it I felt like I was playing babies first fighting game/
What I'm salty about is the imbalance that Modern carries - losing a small percentage of dmg for ALWAYS hitting your specials where they need to be without the risk of a misinput/misstiming is as cheap as using an aimbot that hits 90% of the shots. A pro can do that too, but as a scrub who genuinely tries getting better at the game? Feels cheap to use Modern.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

Valeriya の投稿を引用：

Danny DeVito with a Gun の投稿を引用：

I’m well aware majority are on classic and I didn’t say old heads were switching to modern in droves. You completely missed the point

those who have moved on to the modern is due to the slowness of reflexes, the years pass.

37 year old Haitani got top 6 at Evo using modern Chun

Any top player using modern is using it for the reduced mental stack in matches and easy super inputs. They’re fundamentally very strong players in the first place and that’s something required if you wanna seriously play modern at a high level. Older players that still compete at a high level are going to have very strong fundamentals. This has been echoed by virtually all of them. They’re more than capable of using classic inputs

[Peddie]

Valeriya の投稿を引用：

Danny DeVito with a Gun の投稿を引用：

I’m well aware majority are on classic and I didn’t say old heads were switching to modern in droves. You completely missed the point

those who have moved on to the modern is due to the slowness of reflexes, the years pass.

Haitani, one of the five Japanese gods of fighting games, famous for having slow reflexes at the ancient age of uh, 37.

Edit: Same hat, lmao

[NeZQuick]

uhm
"Using it for the reduced mental stack and easy inputs"

I get it, he's a legend and I'm nowhere near the pros and I have massive respect to all of them for playing at the level that they do BUT!

Doesn't that kind of sort of prove my point?
The 'disadvantages' of Modern controls are just not enough compared to the advantages it provides?

Another (maybe a hot take) comparison - it's like putting on a basketball match, but one team opted to have the hoop be twice as wide and lowered but they can never score a 3 pointer.
It's WAY easier for them to score, but impossible to truly fully 'optimise' their game.

Just how modern allows you to get that special>super cancel WAY easier, albeit never getting the full potential dmg off it. Just like that bball team - sure eveeeentually they'll run into a team that they won't be able to beat but if both teams are on similar levels? Then the "Modern" one has an obvious advantage - thanks to the reduced mental stack and instant inputs.

[NeZQuick]

Peddie の投稿を引用：

Valeriya の投稿を引用：

those who have moved on to the modern is due to the slowness of reflexes, the years pass.

Haitani, one of the five Japanese gods of fighting games, famous for having slow reflexes at the ancient age of uh, 37.

Edit: Same hat, lmao

All discussion aside please don't say 37 is ancient xD
I'm only 3 years away from that and don't wanna feel like a fossil xD

[Peddie]

If it's any comfort I was using 37 in a snarky fashion, and I'm in the same age range as him. There have been professional goalkeepers past 40 in football (or soccer, if you insist), and if there is one reflex based role in that sport it's the goalie. We're still good for a while.

[Alex]

NeZQuick の投稿を引用：

Peddie の投稿を引用：

If a Modern player beats you, they put in the effort, they won fair and square, in fact, they won despite using the objectively worse control scheme.

Also no one at Capcom said there is nothing "proper" about Modern. If they felt that way it wouldn't be allowed in their own tournaments. Make your peace with Modern because even if population wasn't a problem, Capcom would still never put them in a separate queue because they very blatantly believe they shouldn't be separated.

Well, as a small counter argument - if population wasn't a problem I doubt Modern would ever be a thing.

As for making peace with it, maybe I will once I get good enough - I'd still rather see as few of Moderns as possible while on the way there xD

I read your long post, and i can understand your situations.

But Modern Control made SF6 is sooo fun lol, i even can try new character that i don't even think to use before, i'm pad player with nerve problem i have been half paralyzed before, but recovered.

So my respond is not good, and just now i can play video games again after long absent, i even can play Street Fighter again

So this games is so fun for people like me and my conditions.

But again, about Modern Control, it feels limited somehow

[Alex]

Peddie の投稿を引用：

If it's any comfort I was using 37 in a snarky fashion, and I'm in the same age range as him. There have been professional goalkeepers past 40 in football (or soccer, if you insist), and if there is one reflex based role in that sport it's the goalie. We're still good for a while.

Yeah, this year, i'm 44y/o with special conditions lol

I even change my controller because i tought it's not respond fast enough lol

Maybe i just a bad player, but in Battle Hub, i beat Master in BattleHub occasionally in one round (they win the match still lol) but maybe they just being easy on me.

[NeZQuick]

Alex の投稿を引用：

NeZQuick の投稿を引用：

Well, as a small counter argument - if population wasn't a problem I doubt Modern would ever be a thing.

As for making peace with it, maybe I will once I get good enough - I'd still rather see as few of Moderns as possible while on the way there xD

I read your long post, and i can understand your situations.

But Modern Control made SF6 is sooo fun lol, i even can try new character that i don't even think to use before, i'm pad player with nerve problem i have been half paralyzed before, but recovered.

So my respond is not good, and just now i can play video games again after long absent, i even can play Street Fighter again

So this games is so fun for people like me and my conditions.

But again, about Modern Control, it feels limited somehow

See THIS is why something like Modern or Dynamic is GOOD and I fully support devs making easier controls for people with some form of disability, or just casuals who want easier access into the genre - I'm ALL for it.

The issue is when fully capable players use those easier controls out in ranked matches, outplaying people who are still learning the harder controls because they can 'do the thing' much easier xd

I think the easiest solution to all of this is something that someone already mentioned here (I have awfull short term memory when it comes to names)
- just how we can choose whether or not we want to be matched up with crossplay, make it so we can choose if we want to be matched up with someone using a different control type, gonna make the entire issue obsolete

[Peddie]

Except if a lot of people think like you, high rank Modern players are going to need to wait forever for matches. And sure, that's only like 0.5% of the population, give or take, but they deserve to have access to matches too.

And ultimately, it'd mean that Capcom would be agreeing that Modern grants some kind of unfair advantage (when it really doesn't) and that players have a right to not go against them. And that in and of itself is why I think you shouldn't hold your breath for such a filter being added. Also the fact that the anti-Modern sentiment doesn't seem to be a thing in Japan, which is the audience most relevant to them.

[Alex]

NeZQuick の投稿を引用：

See THIS is why something like Modern or Dynamic is GOOD and I fully support devs making easier controls for people with some form of disability, or just casuals who want easier access into the genre - I'm ALL for it.

The issue is when fully capable players use those easier controls out in ranked matches, outplaying people who are still learning the harder controls because they can 'do the thing' much easier xd

I think the easiest solution to all of this is something that someone already mentioned here (I have awfull short term memory when it comes to names)
- just how we can choose whether or not we want to be matched up with crossplay, make it so we can choose if we want to be matched up with someone using a different control type, gonna make the entire issue obsolete

Yeah, just wanna give insight from another pov
SF6 with Modern Control is good for newcomer and casual player

About your solution, i don't know if Capcom is hear what fans want.

[NeZQuick]

Peddie の投稿を引用：

Except if a lot of people think like you, high rank Modern players are going to need to wait forever for matches. And sure, that's only like 0.5% of the population, give or take, but they deserve to have access to matches too.

And ultimately, it'd mean that Capcom would be agreeing that Modern grants some kind of unfair advantage (when it really doesn't) and that players have a right to not go against them. And that in and of itself is why I think you shouldn't hold your breath for such a filter being added. Also the fact that the anti-Modern sentiment doesn't seem to be a thing in Japan, which is the audience most relevant to them.

Well I still have to counter that for a fighting game having the option to disable crossplay has virtually no point - cause whats the difference if someone's playing on pc or console? None really, and yet we still have that option

if they did something like "physical controler type" that would indeed work well with your argument it would be dumb and pointless cause if theres a madman out there who plays hitbox and wants to vs only other hitboxes then he'll be waiting for quite a while

As for high rank modern players waiting forever - that would only happen if high rank classic players all disabled modern controls in their matchmaking and if they did - that would mean that theres something going on after all

and im not holding my breath, i know how theese companies work, and I know the chances of it happening are less than 0.1% but its wishfull thinking for an easy and possibly only probable solution

[Peddie]

I mean you're like, half a year late with still being on the train of feeling Modern needs to be separated from Classic, most of us have just accepted it and acknowledge that Modern is really playing at a disadvantage past Bronze outside of a few gimmick characters, and their gimmicks drop off in Platinum. Even topics like these have become far more rare compared to half a year ago (admittedly, Zarharmar no longer posting here is like half of the reason for that), I really think the demand for this feature is much lower than you're giving it credit for.

[Sixtyfivekills]

Peddie の投稿を引用：

Even topics like these have become far more rare compared to half a year ago (admittedly, Zarharmar no longer posting here is like half of the reason for that)

You really like dragging him in when he's not even here anymore don't you?


Really man, its just weird.

[NeZQuick]

Peddie の投稿を引用：

I mean you're like, half a year late with still being on the train of feeling Modern needs to be separated from Classic, most of us have just accepted it and acknowledge that Modern is really playing at a disadvantage past Bronze outside of a few gimmick characters, and their gimmicks drop off in Platinum. Even topics like these have become far more rare compared to half a year ago (admittedly, Zarharmar no longer posting here is like half of the reason for that), I really think the demand for this feature is much lower than you're giving it credit for.

well that sorta checks out cause i took a bit of a break from SF around the time that Rashid came out xD

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

NeZQuick の投稿を引用：

uhm
"Using it for the reduced mental stack and easy inputs"

I get it, he's a legend and I'm nowhere near the pros and I have massive respect to all of them for playing at the level that they do BUT!

Doesn't that kind of sort of prove my point?
The 'disadvantages' of Modern controls are just not enough compared to the advantages it provides? .

This was a concern early in the games lifespan that, frankly, still hasn’t proved to be a problem. Despite what I said, top players using modern is still a rarity. The biggest disadvantage with modern isn’t the -20% damage on specials/supers, it’s the fact that you lose normals and sometimes specials is the real problem

The characters proven to be very strong in modern (I.e. Luke, Cammy, Marisa) are still overall worse than their classic versions. A modern Luke made Capcom Cup but didn’t make it out of the group stage, Shuto plays both classic and modern Marisa depending on the MU and player. The only character whose modern version that’s been proven to be both strong AND different enough from classic to not be invalidated is Chun. And still, the only player that’s been able to utilize modern Chun at a top level has been Haitani. And he no longer focuses on competing

We’re 10 months into the game now. This just isn’t a cause for concern anymore. Nowadays, the only concerning thing about modern is it’s annoying thing for players to figure out how to beat to get into diamond. At that point, it can be treated like another MU. Some MUs are just annoying, that’s how it is