Hopping Shotos (Ryu/Ken)Problem

[Izzymiroquai1]

I am having trouble dealing with Kens/Ryus that loves to run/hop backwards and shot fireballs from distance, but when I get close, they love to do the cross-ups and do damage on the other side. How do I deal with that as a Cammy Main?

[-VAL-]

oh boy... you literally have anti-shoto girl and have issues with them? Quick Spin Knuckle is the most tedious move for inexperienced Shoto, you have to learn to use it with the right timing and ruin their life. if you know that their strategy is to cross-up you you have to train yourself to do the Cannon Spike in the opposite direction in order to punish them, or keep the right distance and they try to jump over you, you simply punish them with your anti-air normal.

For the rest you are using Cammy, you have to be aggressive, maintain the pressure, drive them crazy with meaty or grabs using your speed.

Maybe said like that it won't help you, but basically your character has all the tools to kill a Shoto. Try studying the matches of more experienced people and observe how they play.

[Rocky McRockerson]

If all else fails, keep eating their fireballs with parries and force them to come to you.

[OgichiGame]

Players like that suck to deal with. It just isn't fun. I'm still struggling with learning how to walk them down, but I do know the basic strat. It just takes time to get good at it, and I am not yet.

If they keep jumping back, eventually they'll put themselves in the corner as long as you carefully push forward. They're going to get anxious once they're in the corner, and they know that they have to push out of it. That gives you the opportunity to punish and start beating them down in the corner. Just wait for them to try and escape, punish, and combo.

Sounds way easier than it is. Obviously players wouldn't run away all the time if it wasn't at least somewhat hard to deal with, but with enough practice you can make them suffer for it

[aRkedos]

I was struggling with that a lot too.

Often they go for crossups. You can either go into practice mode and practice one of the following:

1) practicing cross cuts
2) practicing spacing -> so every time they walk up to you to get into cross up range you correct that and can just do an anti air normal

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Games full of people that run away as hard as possible. I would say half my matches or more consist of people who refuse to play any kind of neutral or ever try to get in outside of screen clearing moves like palm or spin knuckle or drive rush. Just back up, only play defensively, only use screen wide moves that are safe on block, If put in corner jump over opponent and back dash till at full screen again, Use lots of fireballs and generally play as lame as possible.

The other half is about 25 percent rushdown constantly, press buttons or reversals on every wakeup which is a different kind of annoying but at least doesnt feel lame like they are trying their best not to play the game, and the the final 25 percent is people that actually want to play footsies, neutral, and scramble at mid field getting better and testing things and just enjoying the act of playing instead of focusing so much on winning that it makes them play boring.

Runaway players are everywhere in this game all the way up to masters. And alot of the characters in the game are built for exactly this reason. People that can effectively zone you include, Guile, Rashid, Aki, Ed, Honda, JP, dhalsim, DJ, Juri, ken, luke and ryu. Thats 12 of 21 playable characters that can effectively use zoning techniques to play lame, keep the game boring, and keep themselves plus or at a distance too far to hit easily. Thats more than half the roster thats literally built in a way to make zoning viable and a part of how they play if they want to be super lame about it. You could even include Chun-li and lily (making it 14 of 21 characters) even though their zoning is not as good (like how DJ has very iffy zoning because of how unsafe his projectiles are) but can still be used to lame out the opponent or force situations where the opponent is negative and must block a full combo or 50/50 throw mix up because they blocked a projectile followed by enemy drive rush.

This results in lots of people absolutely refusing to try and get in unless its with drive impact, neutral skip moves, or they are already plus because projectile, super, or throw leave them plus. They play very safe, very boring, and want you to do all the work getting in so they can just punish you over and over. Yesterday I had a match where the other player ran for 3 whole rounds so at the end i just got tired of chasing him and stopped running. He let the timer run out for 50 seconds and never tried to hit me even though i walked away to the kitchen. Some people are so afraid to try and get in they will just wait if you arent even there.

Alot of these people play this way because they care more about winning or their record (because of their ego) than playing for fun, or trying new things in a match, or acting crazy to see what shenanigans they can come up with. Take it from a Master Gief, Games full of toxic try hards and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. In master rank I play 85 percent zoning and lame characters and 15% rushdown, spam DP any time the opponent has pressure type players. Both are annoying to deal with but at least only one of them is boring and lame.

You should recieve some kind of damage penalty (or something) for every 30 seconds you don't attack the opponent to discourage running all the time or playing lame. Projectiles dont count.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

-.

In what world is Honda a zoner???

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

-.

In what world is Honda a zoner???

In the one where people are getting to diamond and master using only headbutt. Headbutt is technically a projectile and is treated as one in the game (like you can counter it with anti projectile moves like zangiefs lariat)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1k94zOeL2k

Here is a video of a well known fighting game player that used to compete and win tournaments showing how he can get to diamond one using only headbutt. I have seen master level hondas that do the very same. It works on a decent amount of the cast and works well on people that have not got the ability to counter properly with timing the parry or learning to jump counter attack it based on reaction.

Now would you care to address anything the post was actually about or are we just trying to pick at straws?

[Strago]

get them to the corner and punish their projectiles with spin knuckle. use your superior normals to out footsies them as well.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Originally posted by Elliot:

just parry and walk forward until you're just in the perfect range for a spin knuckle to force neutral, if they throw another fireball you punish them with a spin knuckle, if they don't do anything you can DR. In both cases you can eventually force you're way in to do Cammy's jab,jab,jab into safe stuff, 2HP combos and throw loops. Just be careful to not doing the wrong blockstrings or burn yourself out.

Also , i agree with the other person's response, people just walking back and blocking low in this game is too strong for some characters. There's not much you can do against a Guile or DJ if they decide to just sit and wait for you to approach. But it isn't a problem of just this game but any fighting game with no chip damage.

Man to be honest jab jab jab into combo is almost as annoying as zoners are. It feels like the opponent has no skill when they spin knuckle into jab jab jab into combo. Literally every opener is wait for pressure to end, jab jab jab, did a jab connect? easy combo that gives Oki and does decent damage. Dash in and repeat sequence. Starting to block the jabs? give them constant 50/50s where you have to guess the throw over and over. Now go back to hitting them with jab when they try to throw or shimmy it with insane walk speed.

Not as annoying as zoners but throw loops and jabx3 into combo with oki is almost as bad. See it alot from ken, cammy, juri, ed, rashid, guile and more.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Originally posted by twistedTraversal:

get them to the corner and punish their projectiles with spin knuckle. use your superior normals to out footsies them as well.

Honest question. Is it footsies if you are using a move that skips the neutral area between both players and is safe on block? Isnt that the opposite of footsies? For example, there is no spin knuckle or cross screen nonsense like DI in the actual "footsies" game. Honestly most of SF6 feels like its anti neutral and pro aggression with nooch skip.

[Strago]

thats just how the game is, im playing luke right now and compared to cammy i miss the neutral skipping, DI only works well vs very specific situations like reacting to hadokens in range or lilys spire

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

In what world is Honda a zoner???

In the one where people are getting to diamond and master using only headbutt. Headbutt is technically a projectile and is treated as one in the game (like you can counter it with anti projectile moves like zangiefs lariat)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1k94zOeL2k

Here is a video of a well known fighting game player that used to compete and win tournaments showing how he can get to diamond one using only headbutt. I have seen master level hondas that do the very same. It works on a decent amount of the cast and works well on people that have not got the ability to counter properly with timing the parry or learning to jump counter attack it based on reaction.

Now would you care to address anything the post was actually about or are we just trying to pick at straws?

I’m just dropping this here because that’s not what a zoner is at all. Zoners can play lame but playing lame isn’t zoning https://glossary.infil.net/?t=Zoning

I already remember going through this same cycle of arguing your point so I’ll keep it brief: your idea of a zoner, “playing lame”, and being frustrated as to how anyone can enjoy it is skewed by the fact that you play a slow grappler. A grappler has always played around being patient and waiting for an opportunity to win, force a mistake, w/e. Games against Zangief are slow because players don’t wanna screw up against him.

And you trying to make this point when the OP is playing Cammy, a character who’s arguably the best equipped at countering the game’s actual zoners, is pointless and doesn’t answer his question anyway. People have already answered the question anyway: spin knuckle works great against fireball spamming and Cammy has strong strike/throw mix once she’s in. Her normals are fantastic for pressure

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Originally posted by Danny DeVito with a Gun:

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

In the one where people are getting to diamond and master using only headbutt. Headbutt is technically a projectile and is treated as one in the game (like you can counter it with anti projectile moves like zangiefs lariat)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1k94zOeL2k

Here is a video of a well known fighting game player that used to compete and win tournaments showing how he can get to diamond one using only headbutt. I have seen master level hondas that do the very same. It works on a decent amount of the cast and works well on people that have not got the ability to counter properly with timing the parry or learning to jump counter attack it based on reaction.

Now would you care to address anything the post was actually about or are we just trying to pick at straws?

I’m just dropping this here because that’s not what a zoner is at all. Zoners can play lame but playing lame isn’t zoning https://glossary.infil.net/?t=Zoning

I already remember going through this same cycle of arguing your point so I’ll keep it brief: your idea of a zoner, “playing lame”, and being frustrated as to how anyone can enjoy it is skewed by the fact that you play a slow grappler. A grappler has always played around being patient and waiting for an opportunity to win, force a mistake, w/e. Games against Zangief are slow because players don’t wanna screw up against him.

And you trying to make this point when the OP is playing Cammy, a character who’s arguably the best equipped at countering the game’s actual zoners, is pointless and doesn’t answer his question anyway. People have already answered the question anyway: spin knuckle works great against fireball spamming and Cammy has strong strike/throw mix once she’s in. Her normals are fantastic for pressure

"The act of using long-range attacks to try and prevent your opponent from coming closer, typically by using long-distance normals, fireballs, and backwards movement."

This is the first line in the link you posted. Headbutt is a long range attack that closes distance and acts as a fireball. If you get hit by it, you are knocked back some and the honda can back up and create the same zoning problem as before. This perfectly matches the given definition. You dont have to be classed as a zoner officially to be able to zone with your character, See DJ, Ken, Ryu, etc etc.

Secondly this conversation isnt about who is a zoner and never was. Your taking it in a direction that has nothing to do with what I was talking about which is the act of playing lame by zoning people out and how common it is.

"you play a slow grappler."

I also play Jaime who is fast and doesn't rely on grappling. Still get annoying by people who run and zone all match. So who I decide to play doesn't have as much to do with it as you tend to think.

Even pro level players do. see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeVoxS3g0ME

At 16:50 sajam complains that all he does is chase ken across the stage over and over and the match takes forever and is boring. This is what playing lame is. He also mentions that DJ players tend to play very lame as well.

The OP was talking about zoning and i continued the idea of zoning, what it means, how it happens, who does it, etc etc. Im adding to the main conversation of zoning. Your trying to pick out which characters you think count as zoners and what characters I play as if that has some kind of affect on my ideals. Dont pretend me talking about the main subject matter and you trying to pick out specific details or characters for straw man arguments is the same thing.

See what Im doing is adding to the conversation. What you are doing is nitpicking my argument because you dont agree with it.

[Double Jump]

Fellow Cammy main here :)

This silly behavior is always a free win, if you know and practiced how to deal with it:

1. Walk them down. they give you free real estate in a game were positioning is very important. It is fine to block and parry the fireballs. If you can get a read on one, heavy qsk into light combo will teach them a lesson.

2. When they approach the corner anticipate their forward jump or DI or whatever their idea of getting out the corner they got themselves into is. For their cross up you can learn 2 things. Each will work. If you are familiar with both its gg. The first thing is correct spacing. space yourself in a way that a light cs will catch them. If your opponent has a braincell left after all that backwards jumping, he will know about that space and do something even more stupid instead. The other and a little harder thing is to learn crosscut DP. If you can pull that off, you space yourself closer to your opponent and bait it out.

3. Rinse and repeat until you win :)

[Wolves]

here's a tip for jumping ryu/ken. They cannot DI you back if in the air, get in range for DI so when they jump it's a punish every single time.