Will Zangief have one-button frame one supers with modern controls?

[Infevo]

Considering the range on his grabs watching some footage I assume this is gonna be fun...

[FleshyBB]

I've been curious about this as well, it might be straight busted. The best info I got is I know SPD is doable on modern, but it's locked to the heavy which is the shortest reach afaik. I don't know how it works for supers.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by FleshyBB:

I've been curious about this as well, it might be straight busted. The best info I got is I know SPD is doable on modern, but it's locked to the heavy which is the shortest reach afaik. I don't know how it works for supers.

Yes, the fierce/roundhouse versions always were the lowest range and the jab/short the longest range.

[Infevo]

If this source is right, then the game is dead on arrival:

https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_6/Zangief

[Schizm]

He doesn't have a frame 1 super to begin with. His lvl 3 comes out on frame 6 or 7.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Schizm:

He doesn't have a frame 1 super to begin with. His lvl 3 comes out on frame 6 or 7.

I mean the start up frames begin on frame one of the first input you perform. 1 button input = one frame input.

[Schizm]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Schizm:

He doesn't have a frame 1 super to begin with. His lvl 3 comes out on frame 6 or 7.

I mean the start up frames begin on frame one of the first input you perform. 1 button input = one frame input.

Eh not going to really mater much. Yea its a strong thing but your losing a bare-minimum of 3 buttons on modern controls often 4-6 normal's and command normal's. You gaining access to quick specials but losing a large part of your neutral game which will almost certainly be abused by a knowledgeable player.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by Schizm:

Originally posted by Infevo:

I mean the start up frames begin on frame one of the first input you perform. 1 button input = one frame input.

Eh not going to really mater much. Yea its a strong thing but your losing a bare-minimum of 3 buttons on modern controls often 4-6 normal's and command normal's. You gaining access to quick specials but losing a large part of your neutral game which will almost certainly be abused by a knowledgeable player.

How many frames do you think the classic input of a 720° shortcut is when perfectly executed? And how many frames does an average expert Gief player need to get the startup frames going?

I am just wondering because even 236236+p is 5 frames at best and most pro players will not input this in perfect frame succession but need at least 7-8 frames. And we are speaking of buffering the motion for quarter circles which is not possible for 360°s on the ground in any case. A one-button (one frame) input is HUGE by comparison. Same goes for any sort of reversal.

[Ersatz]

To my mind, Zangief is absolutely the wild card of the Modern setup. Sure, his specials and supers will do 20% less damage, but that's still a hell of a lot of damage. I can pretty reliably input a 720 these days in 5, but like any other mortal I need to buffer it behind something so the actual frame input is somewhat masked - but just the ease and confidence of input is really going to make a massive difference I think.

Still - this is all brand new to Capcom and considering the amount of dedication and work they put into SF5 to bring it from "terrible" to "really good" means I've got some faith in them.

[X]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Schizm:

Eh not going to really mater much. Yea its a strong thing but your losing a bare-minimum of 3 buttons on modern controls often 4-6 normal's and command normal's. You gaining access to quick specials but losing a large part of your neutral game which will almost certainly be abused by a knowledgeable player.

How many frames do you think the classic input of a 720° shortcut is when perfectly executed? And how many frames does an average expert Gief player need to get the startup frames going?

I am just wondering because even 236236+p is 5 frames at best and most pro players will not input this in perfect frame succession but need at least 7-8 frames. And we are speaking of buffering the motion for quarter circles which is not possible for 360°s on the ground in any case. A one-button (one frame) input is HUGE by comparison. Same goes for any sort of reversal.

Can't buffer SPDs on the ground? This is a huge part of Giefs game.
I think what the qeustion should be
is if the Super connects on frame 1 like it did in V. If you saw the CA animation in V there was no escape.

[Infevo]

Originally posted by X:

Can't buffer SPDs on the ground? This is a huge part of Giefs game.
I think what the qeustion should be
is if the Super connects on frame 1 like it did in V. If you saw the CA animation in V there was no escape.

Well, I do have to admit that I never studied all the shortcuts for 720s and the buffers. But I thought at least buffering the first 360 would include one unintended jump and only buffering a 180 is ineffective. At least you can buffer the whole motion for (double) 236s and 623s.

And I also doubt the startup in SF6 is longer. One should not be able to jump out or else Gief would be in the tier gutter even with modern controls.

[stun]

modern gief will only have 1f input medium spd mind you, not instant lightspd
characters with cheap invuln (e.g. luke's lvl1 and OD DP) are likely to get more out of modern controls. Gief doesn't get 1 button invuln for cheaper than 2 super bars, and a hard call out or simple misspacing on the instant-medium-spd (reduced payout mind you) will be punished for full. It's a nice neutral tool but definitely not as good as other modern controls tools.

[X]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by X:

Can't buffer SPDs on the ground? This is a huge part of Giefs game.
I think what the qeustion should be
is if the Super connects on frame 1 like it did in V. If you saw the CA animation in V there was no escape.

Well, I do have to admit that I never studied all the shortcuts for 720s and the buffers. But I thought at least buffering the first 360 would include one unintended jump and only buffering a 180 is ineffective. At least you can buffer the whole motion for (double) 236s and 623s.

While you don't do a raw buffers for SPDs, you do buffer 360's during blockstrings, hit stun, and other situations. Top tier giefs can hit confirm light kick into CAs (720's).

[HighLanderPony]

*Rising Thunder Chel PTSD noises*

[Schizm]

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by Schizm:

Eh not going to really mater much. Yea its a strong thing but your losing a bare-minimum of 3 buttons on modern controls often 4-6 normal's and command normal's. You gaining access to quick specials but losing a large part of your neutral game which will almost certainly be abused by a knowledgeable player.

How many frames do you think the classic input of a 720° shortcut is when perfectly executed? And how many frames does an average expert Gief player need to get the startup frames going?

I am just wondering because even 236236+p is 5 frames at best and most pro players will not input this in perfect frame succession but need at least 7-8 frames. And we are speaking of buffering the motion for quarter circles which is not possible for 360°s on the ground in any case. A one-button (one frame) input is HUGE by comparison. Same goes for any sort of reversal.

"Tachi Gigas"

What is that? Well its what we call Hugo's standing 720 in 3rd strike, yes you can do standing 720s without buffering it with another input. No unintentional jump at all.

How do we do this you ask? Well see its a product of jumping not being instant, it takes some time to leave the ground in SF. Usually its not that much we are talking 3-5 frames(hugo actually has 6 frames of pre jump so its easier with him). So if you input a 720 before those 3-5 frames are up you won't leave the ground and you will do a standing 720.

Same idea with a regular old 360 except way ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ easier, so easy its literally trivial to do with a small amount of practice. I literally walk up SPD people all the time in SF it ain't hard.

Originally posted by Infevo:

Originally posted by X:

Can't buffer SPDs on the ground? This is a huge part of Giefs game.
I think what the qeustion should be
is if the Super connects on frame 1 like it did in V. If you saw the CA animation in V there was no escape.

Well, I do have to admit that I never studied all the shortcuts for 720s and the buffers. But I thought at least buffering the first 360 would include one unintended jump and only buffering a 180 is ineffective. At least you can buffer the whole motion for (double) 236s and 623s.

And I also doubt the startup in SF6 is longer. One should not be able to jump out or else Gief would be in the tier gutter even with modern controls.

His super is roughly 6-8 frames of start up I can't remember which but I want to say 6 frames and on the 7th it grabs you. You can jump out of its start up but not after the super flash which happens on frame 6. So if the flash happens and you're not already jumping you're getting scooped.

[Infevo]

So we speak of a 270 first plus one 360 within 5 frames after up-back for a Tachi Gigas. Let's say 8 frames for the whole input sequence if you're optimal vs 1 frame from modern.
Imho that's huge. Of course, I have yet to see what the trade-off in terms of buttons lost is but judged by my experienced with Ryu at least he didn't lose much and even gained a couple of option selects...