Who are the best grapplers in fighting games, and can we learn from them to improve Zangief in the SF6 tier list?

[Samvega]

I love grappler characters. Getting a read on your opponent for huge damage is the best feeling. The OG grappler, as far as I know, was Zangief. Sadly, he was nerfed in SFII because of a cracked Gief player during a location test for the arcade cab: https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/07/street_fighter_iis_zangief_was_nerfed_because_one_player_was_too_good_with_him

Who are some other grappler characters, in SF or beyond, who you enjoy playing?
Is there something they can do which, if given to Gief, would make him move up the tier lists?

[Agoraphobic Meep]

Iron tager definitely, with how install and resource focused certain characters are I wouldn't mind if gief was the same way. Similar to how tager's magnetism gives him more combo and neutral tools, I'd like if when gief lands certain normals or grabs he'd like inflict some sort of similar debuff on opponent's, something that either makes neutral easier for him to play for a certain amount of time, or gives him more oki and damage off of his grabs for a bit.

[Samvega]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Agoraphobic Meep:

Iron tager definitely, with how install and resource focused certain characters are I wouldn't mind if gief was the same way. Similar to how tager's magnetism gives him more combo and neutral tools, I'd like if when gief lands certain normals or grabs he'd like inflict some sort of similar debuff on opponent's, something that either makes neutral easier for him to play for a certain amount of time, or gives him more oki and damage off of his grabs for a bit.

Something which gives Gief better oki after an SPD would be very cool, and perhaps frustrating for other players.

[Danny DeVito with a Gun]

You don't have to look at grapplers from other FGs, you can just look to what made Gief a solid character in the Alpha games and USF4 (no, bringing back Green Hand isn't the answer). In those games, he had a solid neutral game for a grappler that went beyond good pokes. He also had great damage conversions and jump in buttons as well

He needs a better combo game, especially a meterless one. He needs something to threaten you with if he's not gonna get a vortex off his SPD (nor should he). He has decent pokes but the fact that has little to convert with means you don't have to be as afraid of anything else in his kit besides SPD. He's too dependent on drive gauge for decent damage but that's something all the grapplers are suffering from right now

Lariat needs to hit cross up. I don't need to play Gief to know making his lariat this terrible as an AA makes no sense

He needs a faster drive rush. This I'll guess was the devs overestimating how threatening Gief would be with having both DR and parry. But the distance he covers with DR goes way too slowly for anyone to really be afraid. He doesn't need Juri's DR speed but he at least needs better than what he has.

All three of the grapplers are simultaneously dependent on the drive system while also being screwed over by it. They can still put in work but the amount needed from the player to really make an impact is bigger than anyone else in the cast.

[Everchosen]

Capcom needs to trade Zangief and a second round pick to Arcsys for Potemkin and Jam.

SF6 gets a grappler that will break the game in half with stupid damage, busted pokes, good specials and actual combos. They also get Jam she's great.

GG:Strive gets another character that no one plays anyway.

[-Ramen-]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Agoraphobic Meep:

Iron tager definitely, with how install and resource focused certain characters are I wouldn't mind if gief was the same way. Similar to how tager's magnetism gives him more combo and neutral tools, I'd like if when gief lands certain normals or grabs he'd like inflict some sort of similar debuff on opponent's, something that either makes neutral easier for him to play for a certain amount of time, or gives him more oki and damage off of his grabs for a bit.

It's funny that this is the first reply, because Tager was F tier in the first few versions of BB. He was a great concept, but he definitely had a journey before he became a real threat.

[okey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Danny DeVito with a Gun:

You don't have to look at grapplers from other FGs, you can just look to what made Gief a solid character in the Alpha games and USF4 (no, bringing back Green Hand isn't the answer). In those games, he had a solid neutral game for a grappler that went beyond good pokes. He also had great damage conversions and jump in buttons as well

Learning that SF4's battle director was ex-SNK explains a lot about how Zangief turned out in that game. Same with Abel, who was a rushdown monster that was a blast to play as.

[Agoraphobic Meep]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von -Ramen-:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Agoraphobic Meep:

Iron tager definitely, with how install and resource focused certain characters are I wouldn't mind if gief was the same way. Similar to how tager's magnetism gives him more combo and neutral tools, I'd like if when gief lands certain normals or grabs he'd like inflict some sort of similar debuff on opponent's, something that either makes neutral easier for him to play for a certain amount of time, or gives him more oki and damage off of his grabs for a bit.

It's funny that this is the first reply, because Tager was F tier in the first few versions of BB. He was a great concept, but he definitely had a journey before he became a real threat.

I had no idea lmao, I’ve only ever played central fiction and crosstag and he felt semi solid in both.

[-Ramen-]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Agoraphobic Meep:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von -Ramen-:

It's funny that this is the first reply, because Tager was F tier in the first few versions of BB. He was a great concept, but he definitely had a journey before he became a real threat.

:papyrus: I had no idea lmao, I’ve only ever played central fiction and crosstag and he felt semi solid in both.

Yeah, in Calamity Trigger it was a joke that he was "Tager tier" But he DID get better, for sure.

[X]

Makes no sense comparing different games with that said POTEMKIN BUSTER! Pots only mid tier but he is so hella fun. Has lots of options and combos not the horrible design Capcom has decided to burden Gief mains with.

[Agoraphobic Meep]

If we're gonna stay in the realm of street fighter, I'd like something similar to USF4 hugo's design. Hugo had absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ neutral, like easily several times worse than current gief, but when he got in, he got IN. Basically all his command grabs led to amazing oki setups which looped into eachother, he had easy on command frame traps and insane damage with claps, his anti air grab was nutty, his anti air super was even nuttier. He was like a way more volatile version of gief in every way. Even worse neutral, even better damage.

I wouldn't be opposed to some super insane nerf to gief's neutral if they gave him some of this. Make him +2 and upclose after SPD, make all versions of running bear grab have armor, just give him hugo claps, idfk, make him nutty upclose and make him even worse at midrange is my point here.

[BACKSTABUUU]

I've heard Ladiva in Granblue Versus was a warcrime at one point.

King's also generally decent in Tekken I think, though I don't think people consider him to be a traditional grappler.

[Samvega]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von okey:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Danny DeVito with a Gun:

You don't have to look at grapplers from other FGs, you can just look to what made Gief a solid character in the Alpha games and USF4 (no, bringing back Green Hand isn't the answer). In those games, he had a solid neutral game for a grappler that went beyond good pokes. He also had great damage conversions and jump in buttons as well

Learning that SF4's battle director was ex-SNK explains a lot about how Zangief turned out in that game. Same with Abel, who was a rushdown monster that was a blast to play as.

Yeah, SNK-style grappling would suit me. Shermie is loads of fun, for example.

[Melheck]

imagine a single snk grappler in sf6 and how people would react to it

"Hey!"
-Clark, probably

[okey]

Clark would be funny, but if you REALLY wanted to maximize suffering by adding an SNK grappler in a Street Fighter game then go for Kusaregedo.

[Hardmancanada]

my top 10 grapplers
10= Darun Mister from street fighter EX/ EX Layer games. He was the Rival of Zanfief.very fun to use.

9= T.hawk & Lily. they are grapplers with air mobility, because of that they don't have the same weakness as a normal grappler to close-in to their opponent

8= Jax from Motal combat; Jax is not a traditional grappler. He can do earthquake shoot projectile and have a lot of command grab in some game he can choose a fighting style that specialize in grappler like western Jan from MK10

7= Shermie from King of Fighter; she is weak compared to other grapplers but makes it up with her amazing speed and combo potentials

6= Ladiva from Granblue fantasy: unlike Zangief Ladiva cannot link his normal into a grab but he is still a very strong character

5= Dinosaur from King of Fighter games: This power grapplers command grab puts him in OKI situation which is very good for pressure and he is a Dinosaur what more can you ask.

4=Wolf from virtua fighters; He can kill you with 2 command grasb and he is a Canadian just like me and that's why I like him a lot.

3= Zangief from Street fighter; He can link is normals into a grab, Zangief is the grapplers with the best neutral game and does crazy amounts of damage and have the best anti air I've ever seen in my life ''double Lariat''? if you are patient, Zangief is one of the best characters in street fighter games

2= Tagger from Blazblue; have the worst mobility I've ever seen, but his magnetism attracts enemies to him and can do crazy mix-up with his command grab because his grab does OKI

1= Kira from arcana heart games; A grappler that can air dash, double jump, move fast and can do a combo like a normal character+ have like 9 command grabs. She is a Killer