Why does Ken, Ryu, Cammy, Dee Jay etc all have insane invincibility frames

[Badsie]

On wakeup they just do their "shorukyenenenen" or deejay's whatever his kick dp is, all these characters have free passes on wakeup but Zangief's lariat only hits one side...

[Samvega]

Yep, even OD Lariat doesn't hit on the other side. It's not fun.

[SeeNoWeevil]

They should just give Ken an SPD, may as well, you gave him everything else.

[pseudo]

I can't tell if this is a "why doesn't Zangief have nice things" thread or a "I can't deal with these wakeup options" thread but if it's the latter you should look into safe jump options for your character to bait them for punishes.

[Badsie]

Originally posted by pseudo:

I can't tell if this is a "why doesn't Zangief have nice things" thread or a "I can't deal with these wakeup options" thread but if it's the latter you should look into safe jump options for your character to bait them for punishes.

It's not always Zangief can do safe jump when shorykuen flies upwards to the damn ceiling with invincibility frames in less than 0.1 sec even before they finish their "getting up" animation.

[Dank Sidious]

Try using delay throw tech offensively on them on wake up a few times if they are really trigger happy with those. Punish them really hard for it and you'll see them use that invincible reversal far less.

[Dregora]

Just block, ez

[pseudo]

Originally posted by Mr.Badass:

Originally posted by pseudo:

I can't tell if this is a "why doesn't Zangief have nice things" thread or a "I can't deal with these wakeup options" thread but if it's the latter you should look into safe jump options for your character to bait them for punishes.

It's not always Zangief can do safe jump when shorykuen flies upwards to the damn ceiling with invincibility frames in less than 0.1 sec even before they finish their "getting up" animation.

Every character is capable of it. A safejump is a form of option select in fighting games that allows you to bait a response from the opponent on wake up (in this case, you're encouraging them to try to punish your jump in with a shoryuken) while also benefiting from a jump in attack if they don't. You will line up this clever trap with the moment they can shoryuken. The jump is safe and depending on what the opponent does in response, you are in an advantageous position


For example you will jump towards the opponent who has been knocked down, press a highly active button such as medium kick midair, and hold block (back) before landing:

Case A: they shoryuken as you land -> because you were blocking as you land the shoryuken is blocked -> punish the blocked shoryuken
Case B: They did not shoryuken as you land -> your jump in attack hits them on wakeup -> they now either in hit state, counterhit, or blocking.

It's confusing but there are other explanations of this technique out there that make it more clear.
https://glossary.infil.net/?t=Safe%20Jump

[Ahriman]

it's funny you would complain about invincible reversals with a guilty gear avatar, a game where you don't even have to spend resources for it. I'm sure you would have heart attack if you played SF4

[nwad]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

it's funny you would complain about invincible reversals with a guilty gear avatar, a game where you don't even have to spend resources for it.

Their avatar is Ramlethal. In GGST, Ram's invincible reversal costs 50% meter.

Originally posted by Dregora:

Just block, ez

This works.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by nwad:

Originally posted by Ahriman:

it's funny you would complain about invincible reversals with a guilty gear avatar, a game where you don't even have to spend resources for it.

Their avatar is Ramlethal. In GGST, Ram's invincible reversal costs 50% meter.

Originally posted by Dregora:

Just block, ez

This is what I usually do.

well, that's kinda why I was referring to Guilty Gear and not Ram in particular...

[goka9696]

They're not free, if you block those DPs they're left wide open for a punish.

[Grampire]

If you bait the DP they eat 30%+ punish.

It's a high risk move that doesn't necessarily pay off anywhere near as well as the cost of screwing it up.

In every character in OP you just have to learn the matchup. I think Cammy and especially Ryu are really honest characters and DeeJay had a bunch of stuff that's really unsafe when used carelessly.

Ken is a little flowcharty with his Jinrai kicks being slightly too safe but still punishable.

[ryu600RR]

invincible on the way up and hugely punishable thereafter

it's just a rule of gamble
IRL fighting is just as comparable more or less

[iRaged]

Originally posted by Mr.Badass:

On wakeup they just do their "shorukyenenenen" or deejay's whatever his kick dp is, all these characters have free passes on wakeup but Zangief's lariat only hits one side...

Because they are staple characters and if Capcom made the staple characters trash, everyone would say the game is trash. Tho its ironic they gave Ryu insane damage but he's trash compared to Ken.

[Ad Massive]

If you've conditioned them to OD on wake up, and you're getting hit by it repeatedly then the fault is with you.