Honest question about Ken (yes I main him)

[Dregora]

I initially mained him because i'm just a sucker for fire based characters (dhalsim is too weird to make fire look good) and I generally like pretty ''fair'' characters in the sense that they don't rely on charging or anything. So basically just a good overall fighter with tools. I usually playe Ken in older street fighters too, all back to 2. (not a long time player, very casual, but did play all except V)

Anyway, as you all know, tier lists are out, he's placed very high by everyone, people constantly say he requires no skill etc.

I know i'm inviting those types of people here too, but as only a gold V player, I was genuinely curious: Does he really take no skill or is it a mix of having a ton of tools available to him and that can make him hard to read?

I don't have a ton of internal knowledge on the game besides footsies whiffs etc, but stuff like frame data is going over my head so idk much about that.

[Kiyaya]

I mean, once you to a high enough level, even the easiest characters require skill to get consistent results.
But what makes him good in this game is that he has everything a character needs to be good in SF6.
)good drive rush
)Strong resource-less corner carry AND sideswap.
)Consistent and powerful antiair
)Good damage, even without resource
)Good frames on his pressure tools
)Plethora of pressure reset options
)And more

He's a swiss army knife of a character, but you still need to know how to use the knife.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Ken/Fair. Pick one. Dudes at the top of all the tier lists for a reason. Dragon lash is an absolute travesty, pressure is off the charts, frame traps galore, constant 50/50 throw loops, huge dashes and drive rushes. The man is an absolute menace.

The only sense in him being fair is he actually requires skill to be oppressive with. You cant just spam stuff like a blanka or honda.

[itzDerrio]

this is a long ass question, whats the question ?

[breast milk🥛]

I wouldn't say no skill, but I guess less skill? I've stomped on plenty of Kens, but also found myself at their extreme mercy. I think the super fast wakeup move and his ability to do the crossup combo so easily is his biggest asset. At least it's what annoys me thew most

[Dregora]

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

Ken/Fair. Pick one. Dudes at the top of all the tier lists for a reason. Dragon lash is an absolute travesty, pressure is off the charts, frame traps galore, constant 50/50 throw loops, huge dashes and drive rushes. The man is an absolute menace.

The only sense in him being fair is he actually requires skill to be oppressive with. You cant just spam stuff like a blanka or honda.

But if he requires skill to be oppressive.. wouldn't that make him fair? Even if he has a ton of tools available. Would you consider him more or less fair than for example, modern gief in lower ranks or a honda that spams headbutt or similar characters.

Maybe i'm missing something but if a character requires good skill to work, then i'd call him generally fair personally

[SeeNoWeevil]

They gave Ken pretty much everything that's good in this game. He's S-tier, probably the best character in the game.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Originally posted by Dregora:

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

Ken/Fair. Pick one. Dudes at the top of all the tier lists for a reason. Dragon lash is an absolute travesty, pressure is off the charts, frame traps galore, constant 50/50 throw loops, huge dashes and drive rushes. The man is an absolute menace.

The only sense in him being fair is he actually requires skill to be oppressive with. You cant just spam stuff like a blanka or honda.

But if he requires skill to be oppressive.. wouldn't that make him fair? Even if he has a ton of tools available. Would you consider him more or less fair than for example, modern gief in lower ranks or a honda that spams headbutt or similar characters.

Maybe i'm missing something but if a character requires good skill to work, then i'd call him generally fair personally

It takes skill to aim a gun with accuracy but its still not fair to bring it to a fist fight.

lets take your ideal to the extreme. If they gave a character a move that 1 hits and is unblockable but made the combo so hard that only pros could do it. Would it be fair?

See skill of excecution and how honest a move in are not the same. Fairness is based on things like, if you have to guess to counter it, or how reactable it is, or how often you have to make a right decision to get your turn back.

Rye is way more "fair" than ken.

[Dregora]

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

Originally posted by Dregora:

But if he requires skill to be oppressive.. wouldn't that make him fair? Even if he has a ton of tools available. Would you consider him more or less fair than for example, modern gief in lower ranks or a honda that spams headbutt or similar characters.

Maybe i'm missing something but if a character requires good skill to work, then i'd call him generally fair personally

It takes skill to aim a gun with accuracy but its still not fair to bring it to a fist fight.

lets take your ideal to the extreme. If they gave a character a move that 1 hits and is unblockable but made the combo so hard that only pros could do it. Would it be fair?

See skill of excecution and how honest a move in are not the same. Fairness is based on things like, if you have to guess to counter it, or how reactable it is, or how often you have to make a right decision to get your turn back.

Rye is way more "fair" than ken.

I get what you're saying. I wasn't disagreeing entirely, as I said my knowledge of the game doesn't stretch that far so I was genuinely wondering so I could learn & pick up what makes a character fair or unfair.

[enko]

Originally posted by Dregora:

Does he really take no skill or is it a mix of having a ton of tools available to him and that can make him hard to read?

I don't have a ton of internal knowledge on the game besides footsies whiffs etc, but stuff like frame data is going over my head so idk much about that.

As a plat 3 gief main, mostly playing Ranked, Luke and Ken are my hardest matchups according to current tier list. In reality I find Ken to be an almost guaranteed win every time i play him, because he is the most predictable character aside from Guile. If I don't take risks and just footsie Ken non-stop its borderline easy.

I played Diamond Luke in battle hub, it was a whole new game of insane zoning and footsies followed by perfect punish strings. Forget what you know in Platinum, you have to re-evaluate the game in Diamond. I'd assume Diamond Ken would be about the same.

[Doc Holiday]

His standing HP is so good. His raw drive rush into cr. Mk is so fast.

[Kiyaya]

Originally posted by Teddy Roosevelt:

Originally posted by Dregora:

But if he requires skill to be oppressive.. wouldn't that make him fair? Even if he has a ton of tools available. Would you consider him more or less fair than for example, modern gief in lower ranks or a honda that spams headbutt or similar characters.

Maybe i'm missing something but if a character requires good skill to work, then i'd call him generally fair personally

It takes skill to aim a gun with accuracy but its still not fair to bring it to a fist fight.

lets take your ideal to the extreme. If they gave a character a move that 1 hits and is unblockable but made the combo so hard that only pros could do it. Would it be fair?

See skill of excecution and how honest a move in are not the same. Fairness is based on things like, if you have to guess to counter it, or how reactable it is, or how often you have to make a right decision to get your turn back.

Rye is way more "fair" than ken.

P4AU's Elizabeth actually had almost that exact scenario: A combo into a move that 1HKOs. She was, ironically, considered one of the weakest characters in the game.
But that's anime game jank, so it really doesn't count I guess.

[Peelsepuuppi]

According to the only tier list that matters Ken is only about mid tier when it comes to scrubbery and actually requires some skill to play well.

Whenever you play Ken you can always think to yourself: "At least I'm not a Honda main".

[it's shoe]

Ken is an extremely good character but character strength alone won't carry you past bronze. Even silver players can bait a wakeup EX DP half the time and punish you for it.

Modern might carry you a bit further with Ken, but it's extremely easy to see the difference between people who just hold autocombo, burn themselves out in two interactions, etc., and those who at least have some idea what they're doing.

[doomleika]

I main modern Ken.
He has the fastest normals in this game, 4f lp, 7f 2mk, 8f 2hk. Really high damage meterless and light attack conversions(tho damage falls a bit metered compared to other characters).

Heavy Dragonlash is +1 on block, can force guess game if opponent is not careful.
Jinrai kicks have odd timing and is safe if spaced right. Good drive chip damage.
Meterless sideswap/corner carry in this game. and the corner in this game **is** scary.

Lv1 SA act as both 7f reversal **AND** anti air. SA2 is a bit lacking but good range.

The only downsides is he had no plus frame off netural(most character have one+), the worst fireball(but good in his kit), no command throw(almost everyone and their grandma have one). No neutral overhead(tho he can convert those to SA3)

As for modern Ken, he had two extremely good autocombos. Auto L is hard to execute and natural low hitting. Auto M have very high execution requirements if done manually and can slowly transition to other combos.

He's Auto H combo sucks but you have to give.

[Dregora]

Originally posted by doomleika:

I main modern Ken.
He has the fastest normals in this game, 4f lp, 7f 2mk, 8f 2hk. Really high damage meterless and light attack conversions(tho damage falls a bit metered compared to other characters).

Heavy Dragonlash is +1 on block, can force guess game if opponent is not careful.
Jinrai kicks have odd timing and is safe if spaced right. Good drive chip damage.
Meterless sideswap/corner carry in this game. and the corner in this game **is** scary.

Lv1 SA act as both 7f reversal **AND** anti air. SA2 is a bit lacking but good range.

The only downsides is he had no plus frame off netural(most character have one+), the worst fireball(but good in his kit), no command throw(almost everyone and their grandma have one). No neutral overhead(tho he can convert those to SA3)

As for modern Ken, he had two extremely good autocombos. Auto L is hard to execute and natural low hitting. Auto M have very high execution requirements if done manually and can slowly transition to other combos.

He's Auto H combo sucks but you have to give.

Thank you, I main modern ken as well, on a win streak towards platinum now and I saw a lot of people throwing around ''if you use x char that's just easy wins'' when I always took tier lists from pros as more of a ''are these chars tournament viable and if so how much'' and that I don't think characters (modern gief excluded lol) will just automatically carry you to plat or higher without any basic game knowledge at least.

So I was just curious. I'm not a fighting pro at all but my plan is to just get every char (if I dont get burnt out) to platinum, which would be a huge achievement for me personally.