Question regarding Reversals.

[Nearlydead]

Specifically, Chun Li's overdrive Tensho Kicks.
I was under the impression that the move is wakeup-invincible i.e. it beats meaty normals or throws in the wakeup game (oki).
Now to my issue:
I've had several situations where I used EX Tensho Kicks on wakeup, it even ate 2 bars of Drive Meter and played the sound, yet the opponent managed to hit me out of it on one of if not the earliest frame with a meaty normal. This seems like it shouldn't be possible, but it happened a few times and I now question if I misunderstood something. It has only happened to me like 3 times so far in 1k+ matches, but every time I was just scratching my head.

Maybe one of you can clear this up. Is this supposed to happen? That a well timed meaty can somehow beat an invincible reversal? The move is supposedly invincible from frame 1 to 7, yet the opponent managed to hit me out of it way before frame 8, before any animation could play even.
Thanks in advance.

[Shoah Kahn]

I don't know which moves of her have i-frames -- Ryu's EX uppercut does, as does Man: On's Lv1 super -- but, I do know that the game completely lacks move priority. This means that you get a lot of weird and janky hits and trades, which in almost any other fighting game would have some logical rock-paper-scissors priority dynamic.

About the only move that seems to have priority, are the game's disgusting throws.

[Larry]

Got a replay we can look at?

[Chris]

Shouldn't be possible if it ate the 2 bars, I'd like to see a replay too

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by Shoah Kahn:

I don't know which moves of her have i-frames -- Ryu's EX uppercut does, as does Man: On's Lv1 super -- but, I do know that the game completely lacks move priority. This means that you get a lot of weird and janky hits and trades, which in almost any other fighting game would have some logical rock-paper-scissors priority dynamic.

About the only move that seems to have priority, are the game's disgusting throws.

Maybe I forgot to say, I was talking about Chun's EX DP, which has iframes just like Ryu's EX Shoryuken does.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Nearlydead:

Originally posted by Shoah Kahn:

I don't know which moves of her have i-frames -- Ryu's EX uppercut does, as does Man: On's Lv1 super -- but, I do know that the game completely lacks move priority. This means that you get a lot of weird and janky hits and trades, which in almost any other fighting game would have some logical rock-paper-scissors priority dynamic.

About the only move that seems to have priority, are the game's disgusting throws.

Maybe I forgot to say, I was talking about Chun's EX DP, which has iframes just like Ryu's EX Shoryuken does.

Nah, you said OD Tensho right away. Best ignore that guy he just trolls boards.

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by Larry:

Got a replay we can look at?

Originally posted by Chris:

Shouldn't be possible if it ate the 2 bars, I'd like to see a replay too

I'm stupid for not saving those replays. It's been a long time since it happened, but I'll try finding it.

[Nearlydead]

Turns out the game doesn't save replays for very long. I'll return to this topic once it happens again and post a replay.

[NikDanger]

I've noticed in training that if I'm just doing OD Shoryu with Ryu, or OD Tensho with Chun, that -- rarely -- the first frame of the move will be counter-hit state as opposed to invincible. For Chun it actually adds that frame onto the start-up of the move. I've long just shrugged it off and figured maybe I was doing something weird with my input, but... maybe the root cause is what you're experiencing as well.

Maybe go into training and mash out some OD Tenshos and see if you're getting the same thing?

[Zoid13]

it is fully invincible from frames 1-7
and similar to Juris OD DP. you can be hit out of it after that point as the hitbox on the move turns on and off as they spin creating small gaps where you can potentially be hit out of the move in air to air clashes.
this is why you always want to try DP closer to the ground where you are fully invincible.

as for getting meatied out of it that shouldn't / cant happen according to the games data.

i would say the only way that's possible is lag.

https://youtu.be/mktLkzFYlj0?t=351

5:51

pause and go frame by frame (use the <> keys) and you'll see that her hurtbox (green) turns off completely when she does OD Tensho giving her full invincibility from f1-7

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by NikDanger:

I've noticed in training that if I'm just doing OD Shoryu with Ryu, or OD Tensho with Chun, that -- rarely -- the first frame of the move will be counter-hit state as opposed to invincible. For Chun it actually adds that frame onto the start-up of the move. I've long just shrugged it off and figured maybe I was doing something weird with my input, but... maybe the root cause is what you're experiencing as well.

Maybe go into training and mash out some OD Tenshos and see if you're getting the same thing?

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2057632253082544797/E1659063EB28026FC7AE45430589A3E728B8A6F4/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

is this what you are talking about? sometimes the first frame is green for some reason, like 1/10 times.

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

it is fully invincible from frames 1-7
and similar to Juris OD DP. you can be hit out of it after that point as the hitbox on the move turns on and off as they spin creating small gaps where you can potentially be hit out of the move in air to air clashes.
this is why you always want to try DP closer to the ground where you are fully invincible.

as for getting meatied out of it that shouldn't / cant happen according to the games data.

i would say the only way that's possible is lag.

https://youtu.be/mktLkzFYlj0?t=351

5:51

pause and go frame by frame (use the <> keys) and you'll see that her hurtbox (green) turns off completely when she does OD Tensho giving her full invincibility from f1-7

Thanks for showing me that Chun should in fact be fully invincible there. I considered the netcode "rolling back" what I saw (OD Tensho) vs what my opponent saw (me just doing nothing I guess?) but I am almost certain that my 2 meter did in fact vanish regardless. I really wish I had a replay now.

[NikDanger]

Yup, that's exactly it. And I think I know why it's doing that, now that I've messed around a bit. Seems to be that if you input the two P or K buttons a frame off, you somehow... I dunno... whiff cancel the first frame of the normal into DP? I guess? That's the only thing I can take from this. Someone with a bigger fighting game brain than me will have to figure that out.

I did two DPs back to back with Ryu, one with the inputs piano'd, the next with the inputs perfect, and you can see my results:


https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759437427/

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759407937/

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by NikDanger:

Yup, that's exactly it. And I think I know why it's doing that, now that I've messed around a bit. Seems to be that if you input the two P or K buttons a frame off, you somehow... I dunno... whiff cancel the first frame of the normal into DP? I guess? That's the only thing I can take from this. Someone with a bigger fighting game brain than me will have to figure that out.

I did two DPs back to back with Ryu, one with the inputs piano'd, the next with the inputs perfect, and you can see my results:


https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759437427/

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759407937/

lmao you're right. This happens when the 2 button inputs are slightly off. Thanks for your input, I'll need to test if that was the reason for what happened.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by NikDanger:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759437427/

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759407937/

interesting.
record it with that 1 green frame, play it back and meaty it. does it get beaten and cost bar?

[Nearlydead]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by NikDanger:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759437427/

https://steamcommunity.com/id/njjevans/screenshot/2037366054759407937/

interesting.
record it with that 1 green frame, play it back and meaty it. does it get beaten and cost bar?

So in a wakeup situation this seems hard to test for me alone. I tested it while standing and while it does get beaten and you do get a counter hit it didn't consume the 2 meter.