Modern controls exposed the brutal reality of skill issue.

[C1REX]

First of all I think the Modern Controls is a brilliant idea by Capcom.
It's also an obviously very hot topic that we have like 2 per page.

I think it unintentionally exposed how difficult Street Fighter is and how bad many long term fans are.

Here is the brutal truth:
- You complain about modern controls because YOU don't want to learn.
- You don't want to learn combos and you don't want others to be able to do any combos.
- You want 6 buttons layout so you can comfortably use just two of them - heavy punch and heavy kick. It makes you feel smart and experienced by using only top tier buttons.
- You want the same nostalgia feeling you had playing SF2 where doing an anti air DP was the peak of possible skill. Anything harder than that is just stupid.
- You want the game without combos, without move cancelling, without Drive Impact, without Drive Rush, Drive Reversal, Perfect Parry, throw loops, Shimmy and generally 90% of stuff people do from mid ranks and up.
- You want new SF2 - not SF6.

You don't want to learn. You pretend to use classic to improve when you do absolutely zero to improve. You've learnt no combos. You don't practice combo trials. You don't know bread and butter combos and don't want to learn them. You hope nobody in your ranks will do them. If they learn they are cheating smurfs.

Street Fighter is an insanely hard game. Maybe even too hard in modern standards. Maybe combos are too hard. Maybe newcomers should be able to do some basic combos in classic controls. Maybe the most basic stuff should be simplified so people can actually use them and actually play SF6 as intended - with combos and pressure. With all the tools the game has to offer.

I'm just a little bit fed up by this arrogant gatekeeping people at the lowest ranks who pretend they are better than others.

[C1REX]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

The problem is modern control players want to think they're actually playing the game as intended by the devs. The disconnect happens when you assume we're playing the same game. It's quite literally the checkers vs chess thing...at least in regards to execution and ability.

Modern is the default control scheme in SF6.
Both players play the same game. Except arrogant unskilled buffoons who can't use any combos, cant react to DI, can't do drive rush, don't know what is Drive reversal, think that Drive Parry is a gimmick but they tell others they are better and play the game as intended - without using 90% of core mechanics. They also don't have fun and complain about everything.
They play chess without knowing the rules.

[Shoah Kahn]

Direction inputs exist in fighting games in order gate abilities behind execution -- e.g., Zangief's SPD is a powerful attack and, thus, needs to have an input command that (i) is commensurate to its efficacy, and (ii) that slows down the execution of the ability in order keep it in line with human reaction speeds, and to maintain game balance. If someone can just mash SPD's in a block string to punish, all otherwise inherent timing, motor skill, and strategy are thrown out the window -- it's literally button-mashing to receive a high-damage punish.

For a game that is not explicitly designed, from the ground-up around simplified controls, just shoehorning something so game-changing in, invariable breaks things. Had they demarcated "Modern" from normal controls, this would not be an issue... However, doing so would have been, in "woke" vernacular, "skillist" -- as well as split the online component of the game -- thus, was not opted for by Capcom.

[Sid]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

And where are you getting this from exactly? I'm willing to bet that classic control users lab things way more than modern control users. I mean, how does a modern control players lab anyway? To see how many times they can roll their face over the x button in a row before skillfully pressing forward and x?

not a modern player, but I want to address this anyway as I'm helping a friend learn via modern.

first thing's first, modern gives you the execution, and allows you to focus on the fundamentals. jumping in to classic from day 0, you'll have neither and struggle to pick up both. if you switch to classic after, you'll have solid fundamentals, so you'll be able to create opportunities to practice the execution.
I'm plat, and both my fundamentals and execution are still sorely lacking.

next up, is the idea that modern doesn't help you with the execution of classic at all & instead creates bad habits is just wrong.
most characters have at least one move that requires the classic inputs, and you will encounter situations where you want to use it, the example I gave my friend was standing heavy kick as a punish counter, into EX tatsu on ken, minimum execution, more reward on a punish that none of his other buttons have the reach to do.

auto combos aren't viable for every situation, sometimes you're going to want to combo off a normal, so you'll need to lab that in addition to the fundamentals like learning which normals can be canceled into drive rush or DI, safe block string, oki & frame traps.

and if you do end up going to classic, there's not that much of a difference between 6+button and 236+button, you're just adding an extra step to muscle memory.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

The problem is modern control players want to think they're actually playing the game as intended by the devs.

what kind of logic is that? they are! Capcom (the devs) made modern, and put it as the default control scheme. they are playing it exactly how Capcom intended SF6 to be played lol.....

Originally posted by RetroKid:

The disconnect happens when you assume we're playing the same game. It's quite literally the checkers vs chess thing...at least in regards to execution and ability.

yes in regards to execution. which is also why all the specials do less damage to offset the ease of execution and has lots of important normal's missing.

[RetroKid]

Originally posted by Sid:

Originally posted by RetroKid:

And where are you getting this from exactly? I'm willing to bet that classic control users lab things way more than modern control users. I mean, how does a modern control players lab anyway? To see how many times they can roll their face over the x button in a row before skillfully pressing forward and x?

not a modern player, but I want to address this anyway as I'm helping a friend learn via modern.

first thing's first, modern gives you the execution, and allows you to focus on the fundamentals. jumping in to classic from day 0, you'll have neither and struggle to pick up both. if you switch to classic after, you'll have solid fundamentals, so you'll be able to create opportunities to practice the execution.
I'm plat, and both my fundamentals and execution are still sorely lacking.

next up, is the idea that modern doesn't help you with the execution of classic at all & instead creates bad habits is just wrong.
most characters have at least one move that requires the classic inputs, and you will encounter situations where you want to use it, the example I gave my friend was standing heavy kick as a punish counter, into EX tatsu on ken, minimum execution, more reward on a punish that none of his other buttons have the reach to do.

auto combos aren't viable for every situation, sometimes you're going to want to combo off a normal, so you'll need to lab that in addition to the fundamentals like learning which normals can be canceled into drive rush or DI, safe block string, oki & frame traps.

and if you do end up going to classic, there's not that much of a difference between 6+button and 236+button, you're just adding an extra step to muscle memory.

That first paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about. How can you have fundamentals without fundamentals? That's like taking up actual fighting and then talking about what you're going to do. "When the guy swings, I'm going to duck and throw and overhead right and connect with his chin". But how are you going to do that if you don't know how to throw a punch or if you don't have the muscle memory to actually do what you think you can do? The fundamentals ARE the moves you use in response. Taking away the motions takes away the muscle memory and the skill, and leaves nothing but armchair EVO champs who start each sentence with, "I would have dp'd there, then followed with an optimal combo". It's easy to say, but CAN YOU DO IT? that's the reason we marvel at Daigo, not because he can hit combos. desk hits crazy combos but you don't see him making top 8. Daigo has combined the execution with the knowledge. You can't just modern control it and say, "yeah, I would have done that optimal combo. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I know the right thing to do and just assign me a button to do it with". It's retarded.

[Sid]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

That first paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about. How can you have fundamentals without fundamentals? That's like taking up actual fighting and then talking about what you're going to do. "When the guy swings, I'm going to duck and throw and overhead right and connect with his chin". But how are you going to do that if you don't know how to throw a punch or if you don't have the muscle memory to actually do what you think you can do? The fundamentals ARE the moves you use in response. Taking away the motions takes away the muscle memory and the skill, and leaves nothing but armchair EVO champs who start each sentence with, "I would have dp'd there, then followed with an optimal combo". It's easy to say, but CAN YOU DO IT? that's the reason we marvel at Daigo, not because he can hit combos. desk hits crazy combos but you don't see him making top 8. Daigo has combined the execution with the knowledge. You can't just modern control it and say, "yeah, I would have done that optimal combo. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I know the right thing to do and just assign me a button to do it with". It's retarded.

you seem to be thinking modern controls are something they're not.
623p vs 6y, dude still needs to know when to hit the button, is it easier? absolutely. so instead of worrying about learning the 23 part, he gets to worry about learning the when part, a brand new classic player has to learn both simultaneously.

the when part is the fundamentals, the how part is the execution, don't be acting like hitting heavy kick to whiff punish is some great example of mechanical skill.

p.s. you should stop idolizing the pro players so much, it'll hamper your own growth.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

That first paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about. How can you have fundamentals without fundamentals?

hes not saying you magically start with fundamentals. hes talking about being able to start by focusing / getting a feel for spacing, pokes, whiff punishes, how the game flows, what the characters can do, how to defend and tech, when you can press a button, when you cant, how to manage meter, how the game plays ect ect.
ie. fundamentals.
instead of starting with with the main focus being trying to get a dp motion down while getting their ass beat.

fundamentals aren't just learning motion inputs for specials.

[RetroKid]

Originally posted by Sid:

Originally posted by RetroKid:

That first paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about. How can you have fundamentals without fundamentals? That's like taking up actual fighting and then talking about what you're going to do. "When the guy swings, I'm going to duck and throw and overhead right and connect with his chin". But how are you going to do that if you don't know how to throw a punch or if you don't have the muscle memory to actually do what you think you can do? The fundamentals ARE the moves you use in response. Taking away the motions takes away the muscle memory and the skill, and leaves nothing but armchair EVO champs who start each sentence with, "I would have dp'd there, then followed with an optimal combo". It's easy to say, but CAN YOU DO IT? that's the reason we marvel at Daigo, not because he can hit combos. desk hits crazy combos but you don't see him making top 8. Daigo has combined the execution with the knowledge. You can't just modern control it and say, "yeah, I would have done that optimal combo. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I know the right thing to do and just assign me a button to do it with". It's retarded.

you seem to be thinking modern controls are something they're not.
623p vs 6y, dude still needs to know when to hit the button, is it easier? absolutely. so instead of worrying about learning the 23 part, he gets to worry about learning the when part, a brand new classic player has to learn both simultaneously.

the when part is the fundamentals, the how part is the execution, don't be acting like hitting heavy kick to whiff punish is some great example of mechanical skill.

p.s. you should stop idolizing the pro players so much, it'll hamper your own growth.

There's a world of difference between qcf+p and forward+p, and you'd know that if you have ever played for extended amounts of time and under stressful situations. You can miss the down or the forward input and not get the move to come out, so your inputs need to be precise and accurate...which is why walking forward into fireball is a small flex to those who know you're actually only a few degrees away from walking and inputting do, leaving you wide open for a punish. Forward+p in comparison is nothing. It doesn't make you smarter that you never miss it, because that's not the point. The point is that execution under duress is part of the reason folks get props.

As for "idolizing" people, I think that it's perfectly normal to see people who can do what you can't do and marvel at the skill, ability and dedication they clearly have for the craft and be in awe. Jordan, Ali, Gretzky, Messi...all gods because they didn't slack in their development of their "hobby". How is admiring them going to hamper my growth? Wanting to be a fraction of their level would help someone improve more than opting for the path of least resistance, don't you think? I mean, how is baby mode going to help you? By giving you more time to develop your big brain meta by not having to waste your time with the shallow and pedantic activity of learning how to actually physically do something? Please.

[RetroKid]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by RetroKid:

That first paragraph is exactly what I'm talking about. How can you have fundamentals without fundamentals?

hes not saying you magically start with fundamentals. hes talking about being able to start by focusing / getting a feel for spacing, pokes, whiff punishes, how the game flows, what the characters can do, how to defend and tech, when you can press a button, when you cant, how to manage meter, how the game plays ect ect.
ie. fundamentals.
instead of starting with with the main focus being trying to get a dp motion down while getting their ass beat.

fundamentals aren't just learning motion inputs for specials.

How are you going to get a feel for pokes and zonine and fundamentals when you don't have the whole tool bag available to you? How are you going to whiff punish when you don't have all the buttons available to you? How are you doing to know the flow when the flow is dictated by the moves you so conveniently mapped to a directional button? All the things you claim you're "learning" are either hampered by lack of access to buttons you need, or made trivial due to the lack of reaction being a thing. You're not learning anything except for street fighter lite.

[Sid]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

There's a world of difference between qcf+p and forward+p, and you'd know that if you have ever played for extended amounts of time and under stressful situations. You can miss the down or the forward input and not get the move to come out, so your inputs need to be precise and accurate...which is why walking forward into fireball is a small flex to those who know you're actually only a few degrees away from walking and inputting do, leaving you wide open for a punish. Forward+p in comparison is nothing. It doesn't make you smarter that you never miss it, because that's not the point. The point is that execution under duress is part of the reason folks get props.

As for "idolizing" people, I think that it's perfectly normal to see people who can do what you can't do and marvel at the skill, ability and dedication they clearly have for the craft and be in awe. Jordan, Ali, Gretzky, Messi...all gods because they didn't slack in their development of their "hobby". How is admiring them going to hamper my growth? Wanting to be a fraction of their level would help someone improve more than opting for the path of least resistance, don't you think? I mean, how is baby mode going to help you? By giving you more time to develop your big brain meta by not having to waste your time with the shallow and pedantic activity of learning how to actually physically do something? Please.

you have the weirdest outlook, you find the game stressful and play for props?
you're obviously just a different breed I guess, most people play games to wind down, relax or have fun and improve.

the whole idolizing thing is exactly that, you want to be "a fraction of their level" I want to be above their level, by idolizing others you place limitations on yourself.

I already explained how modern removes one of the barriers to entry and creates more opportunities to learn, thus streamlining the process and allowing people to enjoy success during the initial hurdles of the genre, evidently I lack the words to convey it in a way you'd understand, so I'm going to bow out here, good luck kid.

[C1REX]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

You're not learning anything except for street fighter lite.

Fundamentals don't change much.
Delay tech is the same.
Drive rush is about the same
Parry/perfect parry is the same
Punish on block is the same
Throw loop is the same
hit confirm is easier but the concept is the same
If you do manual input then DP is the same.
Footsies and poking is similar but more difficult on modern.
Drive bar management is the same
Spacing is the same

All fundamentals are about the same. Easier execution of some moves change nothing.
It's like saying that easy characters in Tekken 7 can't do fundamentals and only Mishimas and Akuma can.

[RetroKid]

Originally posted by Sid:

Originally posted by RetroKid:

There's a world of difference between qcf+p and forward+p, and you'd know that if you have ever played for extended amounts of time and under stressful situations. You can miss the down or the forward input and not get the move to come out, so your inputs need to be precise and accurate...which is why walking forward into fireball is a small flex to those who know you're actually only a few degrees away from walking and inputting do, leaving you wide open for a punish. Forward+p in comparison is nothing. It doesn't make you smarter that you never miss it, because that's not the point. The point is that execution under duress is part of the reason folks get props.

As for "idolizing" people, I think that it's perfectly normal to see people who can do what you can't do and marvel at the skill, ability and dedication they clearly have for the craft and be in awe. Jordan, Ali, Gretzky, Messi...all gods because they didn't slack in their development of their "hobby". How is admiring them going to hamper my growth? Wanting to be a fraction of their level would help someone improve more than opting for the path of least resistance, don't you think? I mean, how is baby mode going to help you? By giving you more time to develop your big brain meta by not having to waste your time with the shallow and pedantic activity of learning how to actually physically do something? Please.

you have the weirdest outlook, you find the game stressful and play for props?
you're obviously just a different breed I guess, most people play games to wind down, relax or have fun and improve.

the whole idolizing thing is exactly that, you want to be "a fraction of their level" I want to be above their level, by idolizing others you place limitations on yourself.

I already explained how modern removes one of the barriers to entry and creates more opportunities to learn, thus streamlining the process and allowing people to enjoy success during the initial hurdles of the genre, evidently I lack the words to convey it in a way you'd understand, so I'm going to bow out here, good luck kid.

I like how you purposefully misunderstand and put words in my mouth in order to set up your strawman. Nice try. Anyway, how are you going to be above anyone's level when you can't even legitimately do a fraction of what they can do? Anyway, good luck out there, and enjoy your summer vacation kid!

[RetroKid]

Originally posted by C1REX-PL:

Originally posted by RetroKid:

You're not learning anything except for street fighter lite.

Fundamentals don't change much.
Delay tech is the same.
Drive rush is about the same
Parry/perfect parry is the same
Punish on block is the same
Throw loop is the same
hit confirm is easier but the concept is the same
If you do manual input then DP is the same.
Footsies and poking is similar but more difficult on modern.
Drive bar management is the same
Spacing is the same

All fundamentals are about the same. Easier execution of some moves change nothing.
It's like saying that easy characters in Tekken 7 can't do fundamentals and only Mishimas and Akuma can.

If you do dp, it's the same? No, it's not. You try hitting dp right after a crouching strong punch after drive rush consistently.
So now you want to play the "it's harder" card for modern controls for footsies because you have less to work with? Let me guess, folks should recognize the difficulty there, huh? That's ironic.
Your argument is the parts to whole fallacy. Just because individual parts are the same, you think the game is the same as a whole. I can give you many examples where traditional controls make every encounter different and not guaranteed. Modern controls take that away and grant players the illusion of perfect and precise ability that they cont actually have. Take away the skill portion in any sport and you instantly have a thing no one wants to watch anymore. People don't watch soccer for the goals, they watch for how the goal is scored. People don't watch basketball to see the ball go in the hoop. They watch to see how the player gets it in. It's not the result, it's how. Same reason no one respects trust fund kids like they respect self-made millionaires.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by RetroKid:

How are you going to get a feel for pokes and zonine and fundamentals when you don't have the whole tool bag available to you? How are you going to whiff punish when you don't have all the buttons available to you? How are you doing to know the flow when the flow is dictated by the moves you so conveniently mapped to a directional button? All the things you claim you're "learning" are either hampered by lack of access to buttons you need, or made trivial due to the lack of reaction being a thing. You're not learning anything except for street fighter lite.

you realise there's many high level players that can comfortably use M or C right?
they don't suddenly become scrubs because they no longer have to manually execute motion inputs.

why? fundamentals.

it doesn't matter if you are missing a few buttons to learn fundamental concepts or have a more simple input for a special. the learning process for the fundamental concepts doesn't change.
spacing, pokes, meter management, Drive rush, Parry, punishes, throw techs, hit confirms, anti airs ect ect.

do you really think you cant learn how the concept of a whiff punish works cos your missing 15-20% of your normals?
cant learn the flow of how the game plays because you have simplified specials?
cant learn when your allowed to press buttons and when you cant because your missing a poke?
cant learn how to anti air because your DP input is different?
what about ED players in sf5. do they not learn how to play the game because his specials are just button+button or direction+button.

that's so nonsensical dude lol

Originally posted by RetroKid:

I can give you many examples where traditional controls make every encounter different and not guaranteed. Modern controls take that away and grant players the illusion of perfect and precise ability that they cont actually have.

you realise that M combos (outside the 3 actual automatic assist combos that every M character gets) are still manual singular inputs (tho simplified from motion inputs) that require the same manual timing, charging, DR dash cancelling, hold charging or the combo drops just like C when a mistake is made.

its not all just automatic magic combos.

[Kawalorn]

Originally posted by ShadowSplit:

Nah.
- I don't like modern controls because they take away the most important thing about fighting game, which you actually mentioned in your first point - learning.

Ah yes, because having to do quarter circle forwards is totally needed to learn spacing, footsies, pressure, prediction, matchups, meter management and defense.

Jesus christ, you people.