Broad feedback about game mechanics, combat flow, etc.

[Rydog]

After having played a bunch of this game on every difficulty, and nearly 100% completing the Steam achievements (aside from the "level all characters to 10 in story mode" one), I have some thoughts.

My bias/perspective: I am a huge beat-'em-up fan. I played both TMNT arcade games as a kid, when they were brand-new. I've played all the classic console TMNT games. I've played pretty much every other major beat-'em-up game that exists, from Renegade and Double Dragon all the way up to Fight'N Rage, River City Girls, Streets of Rage 4, and now Shredder's Revenge. I have variously had the perspective of a "button-mashy quarter-muncher enjoyer" and "play for 1cc and/or time attack" player over the course of my life.

(I'm also a big TMNT fan; my entire mostly-complete Playmates line from childhood is displayed on one of my shelves.)

Anyway, some thoughts, many of them critical/constructive. Fight'N Rage and Streets of Rage 4 will be my main points of competitive analysis, since those games are both very recent and very good "modern" beat-'em-ups.

• The game is beautiful. The sprite work is some of the best "retreaux" visual design I've ever seen.
  
• It definitely checks all the "Feel the nostalgic feels, hit some buttons and clap when the Turtles say the thing or when there's a neat cameo" boxes. The developers did a good job with all this, and they clearly have a deep love of this IP. If your interest is limited to this alone, I dunno how much the rest of this list matters (or should matter) to you. A lot of my criticisms are aimed at the depth of the combat/game flow, which I think falls short of this game's competitors (at least for anyone who is not a one-and-done player).
  
• I only sort of like that the characters are all mostly homogenized with some slight differences. This makes it easier to play casually, but it is also a double-edged sword, as it means that characters with certain properties are just better. April's speed and game feel stands above almost every character; her and Raphael's cyclone super, and Donatello/Casey's vacuum super just flatly make them better than everyone else. I wish it leaned a bit more toward Fight'N Rage or SoR4's way more differentiated characters.
  
• The overall speed/pace of the game is relatively good. It's not slow and methodical like SoR4, nor is it completely superspeed crazy like Fight'N Rage. That said, some of the level design is a little too rote, which has a weird effect on dashing attacks. I feel like, a lot of times, the game doesn't really want you to use that stuff.
  
• Grabs/throws are just straight-up broken and bad. This is one of my biggest criticisms of the game; from moment one it immediately felt like something is wrong with the grab system. There are too many start-up frames or something on grabs, and it actually makes them too risky to use regularly. When you compare this to SoR4's excellent grab system, and the console port of Turtles in Time which heavily revolves around grabs and throws, the whole system in Shredder's Revenge just feels off, like it wasn't tuned right.
  
• A lot of random enemies seem to have super armor. Maybe it is fine on a couple of them, like the Triceraton shield dudes, but it feels weird to me that this is a mechanic that is used so excessively outside of boss fights. There are even some Foot Soldiers that have super armor!
  
• Speaking of bosses, a lot of their mechanics are kinda uninspired and same-y. All the bosses either just charge at you a bunch, or have a mechanic where they go invulnerable and shoot a bunch of projectiles for you to dodge. Some bosses (Leatherhead, Baxter) are neat I guess, but they are a lot less mechanically diverse than say, the bosses in SoR4.
  
• The taunt system is just busted. I've already seen a lot of arguments about this and I know there is a vocal "if you don't like it then don't use it" crowd. But the fact is that this is the design implementation that they decided to go with; it is the intended method of play, so it is fair to evaluate and criticize it. You can completely refresh the super meter after every enemy wave or in a safe spot, which is really weird, and it creates this optimal "taunt, super, repeat" meta that is just not great. The best beat-'em-ups have a "risk" system for supers. SoR4 lets you spend health and then hit enemies to restore it; Fight'N Rage has a meter that builds by hitting enemies, and if you use your super outside of that meter it costs health. I think Shredder's Revenge would be a lot better if supers built exclusively from attacks, and the taunt option did not exist (or maybe make taunts exclusive to easy mode).
  
• It's a small thing, but I wish there were just a basic stage select for Arcade mode, where you can easily practice any stage on any difficulty you've previously cleared.
  
• This is a direct "waaaaaaaah SoR4 is better" whine, but man, I wish every beat-'em-up had a survival mode like that one does. SoR4's survival mode DLC is a golden example of how to do it right.

Anyway, yeah, I think that's all for now. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[Radical Rat]

I don't know if it is caused by online latency, but sometimes throws have slight delay where your character stand still and do not respond to imput. This is especially annoying during Chrome Dome fight where you will be punched to death if you mess timing especially on hard.

Taunt mechanic is totally busted in online play, and yes you can not use it, but you can also abuse it completely and it makes game totally braindead because you basically skip waves till boss. No matter difficulty already with three players there is enough space where one player can just walk away or even stand still and repeat taunt-special without being hit

Ironically on Chill mode online players still play it more like a regular beat 'em up, where they just punch stuff and bosses because they are not afraid to lose meter. On Cool and Gnarly it usually turns into tedious taunt-special loop especially last levels and with 6 players you basically skip everything till Krang...

[kuaikukia]

Yea, I agree about the throws. Not just lack of iframe. But the damage is just pathetic. I do that 3 slaps ground combo and for many reason the foot purple soldier still not die. WTH. Might just abuse throw of screen far more effective

[Kalle]

The sliding mechanic (dunno if applies to bashing as well) is what seems to be unpredictable at times. Instead of going horizontally, sometimes you move diagonally what makes you dive straight into pits or other bad situations. this is like the worst for me :/

Aside from the whole discussion on taunting: maybe I'm not skilled enough, but I don't see a big advantage in taunting between fighting screens, since most of the screens get refilled with enemies. Chances of getting it handed over to me are quite big (talking singleplayer / gnarly). That for, I very rarely use the taunt. (Besides that, I of course see the oppinions on taunting in MP).

Character balancing is what caught my eye as well from the get go. Although different characters need different playstyles, it's quite obvious which character not to take in singleplayer games. Other characters (like April for example) seem to be good allrounders, but in some situations they lack of attributes from other chars in my oppinion.

[T]

Good suggestions here

[Kalle]

Originally posted by rusty-double-oh-seven:

On Gnarly solo taunt is alright, because monsters and bosses are always on your a$$ and there's rarely room to abuse it. With two players you hold your bar, especially on low health because you need it in case your buddy is down to quickly kill surroundng mobs, but with more players on screen it quickly gets out of control

Thanks for sharing your view on this. Felt pretty alone with my oppinion^^

[Radical Rat]

On Gnarly solo taunt is alright, because monsters and bosses are always on your a$$ and there's rarely room to abuse it. With two players you hold your bar, especially on low health because you need it in case your buddy is down to quickly kill surroundng mobs, but with more players on screen it quickly gets out of control

[Zagryzaec]

Grabs are fine, you aren't supposed to grapple in the center of the croud.
If you dislike "beaindead" supers you shouldn't ask for iframes on throws.

Originally posted by kuaikukia:

Yea, I agree about the throws. Not just lack of iframe. But the damage is just pathetic. I do that 3 slaps ground combo and for many reason the foot purple soldier still not die. WTH. Might just abuse throw of screen far more effective

Those have different purposes. Three slam clear enemies around you, screen throw kill foot soldier instantly, side throw allow attack enemies from afar.

Super armor on most enemies only work during certain times, making you think and look what's happening.

Even triceratops only have it while shooting. Stone soldiers can be stunned infinitely outside of charge. Most heave weapon foots are vulnerable after strike.

Yes bosses can hit you, charge you shoot you or throw you. What else you expect? They fly, jump, use pattern like barrages, special phases, cloning, splitting chanelling, digging underground.

The great detail is that they actually interact with each other's.

As for "base stage select for arcade mode" it is in the game and called story mode. Choose any level and practice as much as you want.

[Kalle]

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

If you dislike "beaindead" supers you shouldn't ask for iframes on throws.

I'd like to disagree here. Having iframes in grabs don't make them like an invulnerability strategy or heavily abused technique, since you can be hit inbetween the iframes, but it makes the technique overall more strategic.

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

As for "base stage select for arcade mode" it is in the game and called story mode. Choose any level and practice as much as you want.

Had this in mind as well, but this has a flaw I figured: story mode levels you up, so you have more superbars at hand, or hitpoints, or whatever benefits you collected to a certain point. This is actually not just practicing arcade mode, unfortunately.

Agree with all your other points.

[Obs]

On topic of throws, I wish grabs would at least give you extra points for kills, I think the SNES game did it that way IIRC.

While Zagryzaec mentions they have different purposes above, I feel like they aren't that good to the alternatives. If you could skip the initial grab animation and go straight to throwing like the SNES game maybe, but not with all the problems of damage/time/vulnerability stacked together.

Also being able to throw enemies that aren't foot soldier, you could throw the stone soldiers on SNES, not into the screen, but you could do a basic shoulder slam IIRC.

On topic of boss patterns, I do feel the last couple ones are too much "run while they're invincible, then attack when they aren't". Some ways to parry them or knock them out of their invincible phase earlier would be nice. Even if it doesn't do damage in their invincible state, maybe you could get some points for parrying projectiles or something during those phases. I guess that might be a problem with how finnicky the online can get though.

[Grampire]

Only 3 hours into this game but I think you touched on some of my initial observations, which is reassuring.

Throws feel bad. I avoid them as they're just a liability and I don't feel they offer enough utility, damage or defense.

I expected the more homogenized feel between characters, as that's sort of how TMNT style beat em ups have always been. I haven't really delved into the roster yet so I'll reserve deeper thoughts until I do.

I think this feels closer to a coin-op beat em up than SoR4 does, by a lot. Which is good - that's how it should feel. Its faster and gameplay feels more streamlined. Of course that format comes with plenty of drawbacks - the combat can feel more one dimensional for sure.

Looking forward to playing more of course, but so far SoR4 is still fave. I didn't expect it to and it's still an excellent game, it's just not quite as tight.

[Radical Rat]

https://youtu.be/as5-dXEPsaA

[Rydog]

Originally posted by Kalle:

Originally posted by Zagryzaec:

As for "base stage select for arcade mode" it is in the game and called story mode. Choose any level and practice as much as you want.

Had this in mind as well, but this has a flaw I figured: story mode levels you up, so you have more superbars at hand, or hitpoints, or whatever benefits you collected to a certain point. This is actually not just practicing arcade mode, unfortunately.

Agree with all your other points.

Yeah, I should have been more specific, but this was my minor qualm with stage select -- it's only available in a mode where the mechanics don't entirely sync with the basic arcade experience.

[Kruppt808]

Originally posted by Rydog:

After having played a bunch of this game on every difficulty, and nearly 100% completing the Steam achievements (aside from the "level all characters to 10 in story mode" one), I have some thoughts.

My bias/perspective: I am a huge beat-'em-up fan. I played both TMNT arcade games as a kid, when they were brand-new. I've played all the classic console TMNT games. I've played pretty much every other major beat-'em-up game that exists, from Renegade and Double Dragon all the way up to Fight'N Rage, River City Girls, Streets of Rage 4, and now Shredder's Revenge. I have variously had the perspective of a "button-mashy quarter-muncher enjoyer" and "play for 1cc and/or time attack" player over the course of my life.

(I'm also a big TMNT fan; my entire mostly-complete Playmates line from childhood is displayed on one of my shelves.)

Anyway, some thoughts, many of them critical/constructive. Fight'N Rage and Streets of Rage 4 will be my main points of competitive analysis, since those games are both very recent and very good "modern" beat-'em-ups.

• The game is beautiful. The sprite work is some of the best "retreaux" visual design I've ever seen.
  
• It definitely checks all the "Feel the nostalgic feels, hit some buttons and clap when the Turtles say the thing or when there's a neat cameo" boxes. The developers did a good job with all this, and they clearly have a deep love of this IP. If your interest is limited to this alone, I dunno how much the rest of this list matters (or should matter) to you. A lot of my criticisms are aimed at the depth of the combat/game flow, which I think falls short of this game's competitors (at least for anyone who is not a one-and-done player).
  
• I only sort of like that the characters are all mostly homogenized with some slight differences. This makes it easier to play casually, but it is also a double-edged sword, as it means that characters with certain properties are just better. April's speed and game feel stands above almost every character; her and Raphael's cyclone super, and Donatello/Casey's vacuum super just flatly make them better than everyone else. I wish it leaned a bit more toward Fight'N Rage or SoR4's way more differentiated characters.
  
• The overall speed/pace of the game is relatively good. It's not slow and methodical like SoR4, nor is it completely superspeed crazy like Fight'N Rage. That said, some of the level design is a little too rote, which has a weird effect on dashing attacks. I feel like, a lot of times, the game doesn't really want you to use that stuff.
  
• Grabs/throws are just straight-up broken and bad. This is one of my biggest criticisms of the game; from moment one it immediately felt like something is wrong with the grab system. There are too many start-up frames or something on grabs, and it actually makes them too risky to use regularly. When you compare this to SoR4's excellent grab system, and the console port of Turtles in Time which heavily revolves around grabs and throws, the whole system in Shredder's Revenge just feels off, like it wasn't tuned right.
  
• A lot of random enemies seem to have super armor. Maybe it is fine on a couple of them, like the Triceraton shield dudes, but it feels weird to me that this is a mechanic that is used so excessively outside of boss fights. There are even some Foot Soldiers that have super armor!
  
• Speaking of bosses, a lot of their mechanics are kinda uninspired and same-y. All the bosses either just charge at you a bunch, or have a mechanic where they go invulnerable and shoot a bunch of projectiles for you to dodge. Some bosses (Leatherhead, Baxter) are neat I guess, but they are a lot less mechanically diverse than say, the bosses in SoR4.
  
• The taunt system is just busted. I've already seen a lot of arguments about this and I know there is a vocal "if you don't like it then don't use it" crowd. But the fact is that this is the design implementation that they decided to go with; it is the intended method of play, so it is fair to evaluate and criticize it. You can completely refresh the super meter after every enemy wave or in a safe spot, which is really weird, and it creates this optimal "taunt, super, repeat" meta that is just not great. The best beat-'em-ups have a "risk" system for supers. SoR4 lets you spend health and then hit enemies to restore it; Fight'N Rage has a meter that builds by hitting enemies, and if you use your super outside of that meter it costs health. I think Shredder's Revenge would be a lot better if supers built exclusively from attacks, and the taunt option did not exist (or maybe make taunts exclusive to easy mode).
  
• It's a small thing, but I wish there were just a basic stage select for Arcade mode, where you can easily practice any stage on any difficulty you've previously cleared.
  
• This is a direct "waaaaaaaah SoR4 is better" whine, but man, I wish every beat-'em-up had a survival mode like that one does. SoR4's survival mode DLC is a golden example of how to do it right.

Anyway, yeah, I think that's all for now. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

after playing for a couple hours i feel that all your points are well made. I didn't think you were saying game X is great and game Y sucks, you were just using an example of mechanics that work and don't. i think i will try SoR4 lol

[Jamie Lee Cuteass]

I'm inclined to agree with most of your post.

I especially agree about Taunts and Throws.

FWIW I find it's especially annoying that none of the bosses I can think of can be thrown. Most bosses in Streets of Rage 4 can. I can see why you shouldn't be able to screen-flip bosses to their insta-death, but a crowd controlled throw would be nice.

I watched a video about i frames on throws and believe that adding them would help the game a lot.

[peterstevens]

Wow. Solid and informative thread.