any Lore reason Guardmen have Bolter but Ogryns don't?

[HunterIII]

I mean... ME LIKE BIG BOOM GUN. WHY ME NOT HAVE ONE?

[Frost Spectre]

I think they could get Autocannon. Dunno about Heavy Bolter.

[Khloros]

The problem with "Well this books says it breaks arms" is that every writer has their own interpretation of the lore we have seen humans using bolters ranging from, being able to use them with out issues, to it shatters there arms if they fire.

However, from the vast overwhelming source material AND from the actual game itself, humans can, and do use bolt weapons.
Bolt pistols are common among sgt, officers, commisars, and pretty much anyone of rank in the guard.

Humans 100% can and do fire bolters, they always have been always will be, this goes back to the oldest lore. The "It would shatter there arms" bs is so few and far between that its outside of the norm.

The Bolter fires a self propelled round, with the initial reoil of the gun, giving it enough umpf to get out of the barrel and then the rest takes over. You can 100% fire that round. In fact the USA actually played around with this system back in the 90s with the XM29 platform which was a 20mm infantry used grenade rifle using smart grenade technology. For the record 20mm comes out to roughly .78 caliber, not going to go into why the program was scrapped because its not relevant, but the program eventually lead into the use of the XM25 infantry used grenade rifle which was fired at 25mm with no issue. Again why it was stopped being used is another topic not relevant to this.

The point of all of that is that yes, 100% humans can, absolutely fire 20mm rounds IE .75 caliber rounds which is the same as the bolter and bolt pistol. With the added addition of the self propelled round that is found in warhammer 40k, this would reduce the recoil on the shooter because the recoil would be just enough to get the round moving until the propellant took over.

So yes, 100% humans can use bolters with out any issues in lore, because even modern real world use of it was and is a thing, so with the added technology of 40k, they could with ease fire a fully auto handheld version of the weapon. Saying other wise is being just flat out, 100% wrong.
Also FFG iirc is not canon.

Now, as to why the guard DONT use it. Its becuse the logistics of supplying and training guardsmen on the use of the weapon is not worth the time, the las gun is a far easier to make, supply, and train weapon. Put battery in gun, switch off safty, point at bad thing and pull trigger. No other moving parts or components to malfunction.

As to why ogryn dont use them, same reason as above, ogryn are less intelligent and the IoM dont see the value in giving them a weapon they probably will end up breaking.

Why dont they use heavy bolters then but use heavy stubbers. same as above, they dont wanna give an expensive weapon to an ogryn, on top of that, the guard does not have access to the man portable version of the HB. The only patterns of HB that exist that are for a single person to use, exist only for marines, and 40k is well known for not being able to change the designs of existing weapons platforms.

[Harukage]

Publicado originalmente por Khloros:

Why dont they use heavy bolters then but use heavy stubbers. same as above, they dont wanna give an expensive weapon to an ogryn, on top of that, the guard does not have access to the man portable version of the HB. The only patterns of HB that exist that are for a single person to use, exist only for marines, and 40k is well known for not being able to change the designs of existing weapons platforms.

Heavy bolter is a base option for a guard HVT. Always was. The alternative options are lascannon, autocannon, mortar and missile launcher. Respectively it is a 2 men team.
But then sergeant Harker says hello. Wielding both a HB and ammo solo.

[Khloros]

Publicado originalmente por Harukage:

Publicado originalmente por Khloros:

Why dont they use heavy bolters then but use heavy stubbers. same as above, they dont wanna give an expensive weapon to an ogryn, on top of that, the guard does not have access to the man portable version of the HB. The only patterns of HB that exist that are for a single person to use, exist only for marines, and 40k is well known for not being able to change the designs of existing weapons platforms.

Heavy bolter is a base option for a guard HVT. Always was. The alternative options are lascannon, autocannon, mortar and missile launcher. Respectively it is a 2 man team.
But then sergeant Harker says hello. Wielding both a HB and ammo solo.

The guard HB option is not the same as the man portable verison, its a crewed weapon not a single use wepaon.

Sergeant Harker also is an exception not the rule.
Also to note, Harker does not use a man portable HB, he basically uses a HB that he ripped off of a vehicle. Again, not a pattern of bolter that is designed to be used like that at all.
He is also naturally insanly big for an unaltered human.

[Harukage]

It is man portable. Because it can be operated and moved by a single human just fine. As oposed to a vechicular HB for exaple, or stationary defenses. It is operated by a crew of gunner and loader for efficiency however.

[Khloros]

Publicado originalmente por Harukage:

It is man portable. Because it can be operated and moved by a single human just fine. As oposed to a vechicular HB for exaple, or stationary defenses. It is operated by a crew of gunner and loader for efficiency however.

No, the HB he is using is not designed for a single man, its the same pattern of HB that normally would take 2 people to operate. But because he is such a massive individual by unaltered human standards he can weild the crewed weapon by himself.

Its only man portable because he strong maned it to work that way, its not meant to, and pretty much no one outside of him can do it besides astartes
He is the exception not the rule.

As to why ogryns cant use them, one no pattern was ever made for them, and two, they dont trust an ogryn to use it.

[Nobelissimos]

A heavy bolter on a mount that requires setup is much different from firing it from your hands like a space marine does.

[Tactical Drongo]

Publicado originalmente por HunterIII:

I mean... ME LIKE BIG BOOM GUN. WHY ME NOT HAVE ONE?

oh the guardsman doesnt get a heavy bolter
its in fact one of the smaller versions

Publicado originalmente por Harukage:

Commisars use bolt-pistols.

they often use them but standard issue is a lasgun

[Shining_Darkness]

Publicado originalmente por AzZotik:

Ogryn not smart, Ogryn bash heretic with big boom, big boom go bad, Ogryn no longer big boom. No give Ogryn big boom.

... they literally gave him the biggest boom.

[Upggrade]

Ogryns are big dumb and huge strong, they're not given boltguns because they can't do all the maintenance rituals to maintain them and they'll break the things. Ripper guns are simple and near indestructible.

[✠ GUNNAR ✠]

Publicado originalmente por Khloros:

The problem with "Well this books says it breaks arms" is that every writer has their own interpretation of the lore we have seen humans using bolters ranging from, being able to use them with out issues, to it shatters there arms if they fire.

However, from the vast overwhelming source material AND from the actual game itself, humans can, and do use bolt weapons.
Bolt pistols are common among sgt, officers, commisars, and pretty much anyone of rank in the guard.

Humans 100% can and do fire bolters, they always have been always will be, this goes back to the oldest lore. The "It would shatter there arms" bs is so few and far between that its outside of the norm.

Yeah. You’ve misunderstood. It’s not being said that normal humans can’t shoot bolters at all. They clearly can. They use human (or mortal) grade bolters.
The arm breaking recoil is referring to when normal humans try and fire Astartes grade bolters, which are larger and more powerful than the human versions.

And yes, bolters DO have enormous recoil, specifically stated by several official sources. The bolt round is two-stage and is fired out like a conventional .75 caliber bullet with a powerful propellant, enough to be extremely lethal even at point blank range. The second stage rocket simply increases the range and lethality even more.

[XIX Victorious Aut Mortis]

ogyrn can't use it due to the fact that A. ogyrn can't use it sicne it not built for them, b. the weapon is too complex and not rugged enough. C. GW says no.

in the 6/7th eddition the abhuman section that covers the rattling and the Ogyrn covers the weapon the and it says ogyrn weapon have to be able to use it as a improvise club. the weapon have burst limiters to you don't run out of ammo before the fight have even started. the Onlywar RPG says the ogyrn can only really use weapons built for them with the keyword Ogyrn Proof. also to make them a Bigger version like that of the astrates requires better Machine spriites, which are what the Astrates weapons have. also the fact that ogyrns really can't be trusted to do thing by themselves. expect smash heretics good. while the weapons probable useable from the Bolter Catagory is the heavy bolter. you proable won't find it in this game since it firing mini-coke/pepsi cans of Delayed explosive death. at a faster firing rate then the boltgun which is due to the fact that they all share the same ammunition. for the guard anyway. it would be broken from the get and go. the is no balancing it unless you take away it explosives payload which doesn't make a bolter a bolter. so recommand go look up Onlywar core rule book and hammer of the emperor as those 2 books detail the ogyrn class, then look through the guard codex. the 3-8th editions as they detail on the ogyrn 10th edition information is lacking compared to the rest of the guard codex line.

humans can't wield Astrates boltgun simple as that, also the machine spirits of SM boltguns will burn the Hands of the unworthy. they are too big and massive to be used. that why the Locke boltgun eixst, same as the hesh pattern boltpistol, due not there are many inconsitantence between the RPGs, example being the Dark heresy and Only war, or rouge trader and black crusade there inconsistanency across the system while 2nd edition of Dark heresy is compadbile with only-war, Rouge trader and deathwatch. there are many incosntancy across the weapons.

[Boss Wooten]

Publicado originalmente por HunterIII:

any Lore reason Guardmen have Bolter but Ogryns don't?

Yes

[Harukage]

Publicado originalmente por Khloros:

Its only man portable because he strong maned it to work that way, its not meant to, and pretty much no one outside of him can do it besides astartes
He is the exception not the rule.

Mankind is diverse in Wh40k. Hell, catachans alone are all above 2 meters in height macho men. Not typical humans by our standarts.
Now every day Necromundan Enforcers raid Goliaths territory - local commissarat has an influx of "volunteers" perfectly capable of singlehandedly wielding a heavy bolter. Just one example.

[Antearz]

Publicado originalmente por HunterIII:

I mean... ME LIKE BIG BOOM GUN. WHY ME NOT HAVE ONE?

There is in Fact a Lore Reason for this.


Have You noticed how like every Ogryn Weapon has a Secondary Melee Attack ? ^^

This is actually Quite Lore Accurate.
According to the lore. Weapons for Ogryn´s tend to be handled quite Roughly. Often being used as Makeshift Clubs.
Because of that. Ogryns are only given Weapons which are very Sturdy and dont bend or start jamming when they are used to Bash someones Head in.
This however also makes their Weapons extremely Heavy. As their Weapons tend to be much Thicker. Using Heavier Metal Plates and Reinforced Barrels etc etc.

Also. Ogryns are Generally not given Weapons which require Fire Disciplin.
Ogryns are not exactly Smart. And most cannot really Count without their Fingers.
So they cant really keep Track of how many Rounds they Fired. Much less Read Complicated Numbers from some Small Display or something.
And they also dont tend to think about conserving Ammunition or such stuff.
Meaning that most of the Time. Ogryn´s which are Equipped with an Full Automatic Weapon. Will simply Push down the Trigger and go Full Auto until the Weapon is Empty even if the Enemy is Long Dead already.
Because of that. Ogryns are only given Full Automatic Weapons when these are Heavy Weapons with Large Ammo Capacity like the Twin Stubber or Lascannon.
Where the Ogryn can then effectively be used as a Heavy Weapon Platform which Lays Suppressing Fire.
Or Weapons which only have Burst or Single Fire Modes. And thus Prevent the Ogryn from just Firing all their Ammunition from a Clip into a Single Enemy.



Bolters. By default have a few Qualities which are not exactly Fitting that.
The Ammunition is very Limited per Clip and also is very Valuable.
So the Empire does not Fancy giving such Valuable stuff to an Ogryn which then will Blast an Entire Clip of Bolter Rounds into a Single Zombie laughing at how that Zombie keeps being Blown into ever Smaller Pieces.
And they are also not exactly useful as Melee Weapons. Being Loaded with what is effectively Explosive Rockets....
So giving this kind of Weapon to an Ogryn. Would not be very Useful.
And while ingame of course. The Ogryn is Played by a Player who does have Fire Disciplin.
Lorewise it would make no Sense whatsoever for the Empire to Provide Bolters to Ogryns.
Except maybe a Heavy Bolter usually Mounted on a Vehicle or something xD