surgical + deadly accurate on godwyn bolter pistol

[lElysiuM]

I heard poeple say cit on the bolter pistol is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, some guides say the only good blessings are execution and puncture, but with my testing it does more dmg then a perfectly rolled Zerona revolver, of course without the rending, so its ♥♥♥♥ again crushers. But it can easily one shot everything besides muties, ogryns and ragers (just like zerona revolver).

Yes, no cleave, but stagger and quicker reload.

[Steinar]

Surgical works great on the Boltpistol imo. I never leave home without it. :)

[kozerd.lb]

Originally posted by lElysiuM:

But it can easily one shot everything besides muties, ogryns and ragers (just like zerona

Poxhounds or poxbusters still don't care about you and your toy tho

[Arani]

Personally I'm not a fan of Deadly Accurate since the bolt pistol's ADS accuracy loses to a revolver every time. Especially when firing multiple rounds. Imo it shines with its mobile hip shots.

I find either Puncture & Lethal Proximity for builds that need close range CC, or Puncture & Surgical for builds that don't to be the best match for me. Surgical & Puncture is a good combo anyways since the crit + bleed meets most breakpoints DA would without relying on headshots, considering it's not going to be a carapace killer anyway. :> Puncture is just fantastic and one of the big reasons for why I love that gun.

[Ishan451]

Surgical IV needs you to aim for 300ms for a +10% crit chance. So 600ms aiming is 20%, 900ms aiming 30%... if you aim for 3 seconds, you get 100% crit chance.

In anything high intensity in this game, you'll likely not spend more than a second aiming before a shot. Even half a second aiming is a bit long... and the Bolt Pistol has "Point blank blessing" which gives you 20% crit chance after a Melee Kill for 3,5 seconds.

Surgical stacks are lost upon firing, so to do 3 shots with +20% crit chance each, all of them have to happen 600ms apart. Meanwhile if you would use "Point Blank IV" you would have to kill a poxwalker and depending on how good your aim is, you could take 3+ shots in the time it takes you to do this (given how Emperor's Aweful how terrible the kickback on the Bolt Pistol is, you'll likely fall into that 750ms refire rate, which isn't enough to build a 3rd stack of Surgical)

So, if you were to run a Weapons Specialist build*, you could reach about 100% crit chance (depending on your talents) with Point Blank blessing by killing 2 Groaners (or anything)... Then you can swap over and you'd get 66% base crit from Ranged Specialist plus the 20% of Point blank, plus whatever else you got going.. for 3,5 seconds. You can take as many shots as you can/want in that time, with no need to wait for Surgical to build new stacks.

Now technically your Ranged Specialist remains up for 5 seconds. So technically you could shoot 2 more bullets if you waited the 600ms between each shot with surgical, compared to melee specialist... but likely you are not standing there sniping people, because if you were... you'd be rocking a Helbore with Surgical. Even the quickest charging Helbore (MK II) will get you to 3-4 stacks of Surgical by the time you release that trigger, giving you a guaranteed 30% crit chance at the very least.

If you want to stand around, stacking 5+ surgical stacks, then you can just use a Helbore MK III or if you really can't go without the Carapace damage... a proper sized bolter. But i cannot imagine a situation in this game, at least not in Auric missions, where you have the luxury to stand aim for 1,5 seconds... that happens so infrequently that building for it, really isn't worth it.

And if you need more than half a second to aim... then why are you carrying a Pistol anyway? The whole point of them is to be able to quickly equip them, shoot and put them away.... if you are a "slow aimer" then get a proper fullsized weapon.


*and if you run Zealot, then you take Duelist and Dodge something for that 50% crit chance on dodge for 3 seconds, which means a single dodge gives you 50% crit chance plus the 20 from Point Blank for a guaranteed 70% crit.

[Arani]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Surgical IV needs you to aim for 300ms for a +10% crit chance. So 600ms aiming is 20%, 900ms aiming 30%... if you aim for 3 seconds, you get 100% crit chance.

In anything high intensity in this game, you'll likely not spend more than a second aiming before a shot. Even half a second aiming is a bit long... and the Bolt Pistol has "Point blank blessing" which gives you 20% crit chance after a Melee Kill for 3,5 seconds.
...

Not how it works.

• Psyker base + passive + aura = 17.5% crit, with Scrier's it's 37.5%
  
• Vet base + passive = 10%. But they have options like Deadshot +25%, Opening Salvo +10%, Reciprocity +25% to 70% max. Realistically they tend to settle somewhere around 30-40%:ish on crit builds but it depends.
  
• Zelly base 5 + Blazing Piety +25% = 30%. Not sure if Scourge affects ranged but if it did that would be another conditional +30% max.
  
• Bolt pistol base crit is 5%, with a perk adding another 5% but that's not worth picking so not counting that in
  
• And as you said, Surgical gives +33.3% crit/s, or +50% per 1.5s

Which means most builds will have about 50% - 70% chance to crit after 1s of aiming, and up to ~90% after 1.5s. But Surgical has never been about "100% or nothing" anyway.

Aiming itself takes a moment and the BPistol's trashy ADS & insane recoil means Surgical adds a minimum of +10-30% crit on virtually every ADS shot. With its great base finesse bonuses of +60% / 100% dmg on crit-or-WS / crit&WS hits, that added crit bonus is huge and adds up even if you don't force every shot up to 100% crit.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Arani:

Not how it works.

That is literally how it works. You going "nu uh" doesn't change how the blessing works. It is +10% crit chance per 300ms (or 0.3 seconds... a second is 1000ms (you know as in milli second, milli meaning 1/1000th of a second).. so 0.3 seconds is 300ms) aiming for Surgical IV.

And you can, if you want put more sources of crit to this, but it does not change how surgical works or that you need to aim for 0,6 seconds to get +20% crit chance, while point blank gives you a +20% crit chance after a melee kill for 3,5 seconds. Which means you can maintain a 20% crit chance much easier, if your aim time is shorter or equal to 899ms.... or 0,899s

Originally posted by Arani:

Which means most builds will have about 50% - 70% chance to crit after 1s of aiming

Almost as if i mentioned a few ways to get there. Maybe you should have read the post?

Originally posted by Arani:

, and up to ~90% after 1.5s. But Surgical has never been about "100% or nothing" anyway.

It is almost as if i addressed that in my previous post... maybe you should go back and read it? I mean instead of going "nu uh" on objective facts.

[Ravs]

Surg/Deadly is better on Veteran when running Boltpistol, because with Executioner's Stance there's no annoying shake after every shot. Yes, surgical will oneshot most targets, but Bolt Pistol shots sometimes don't register as a headshot in real matches because of ping or lag. You need to aim right at the forehead, otherwise the projectile might hit neck area. I have experienced it many times, Laspistol and Revolver don't have the same problem.

I like Puncture+Lethal combo more, because it differentiates the gun from the revolver. For me Bolt Pistol is not a precision weapon, it's a crowd control weapon that enhances mobility, unless they plan to buff its accuracy in the next patch.

Also I think Zarona does actually kills Ragers in oneshot, doesn't it? With Surgical/Handcannon it definitely does kill armored ragers at least.

[Steinar]

Originally posted by Arani:

Which means most builds will have about 50% - 70% chance to crit after 1s of aiming, and up to ~90% after 1.5s. But Surgical has never been about "100% or nothing" anyway.

I also find that this is how it organically works out in combat, and I don't use Surgical to secure 100% crit on every shot. It's a great option to have, and triggers more often and more easily than what's insinuated in this thread.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Steinar:

I don't use Surgical to secure 100% crit on every shot. It's a great option to have, and triggers more often and more easily than what's insinuated in this thread.

Which was never the point.

The point was: If you use a Pistol, then you bring it to quickly be able to change to it, and snipe enemies real quick. Which means you either look to Mag dump into an enemy or you want to snipe 1-2 offending Specials. In either case you will not spend much time aiming. You are looking for the snap shot type of deal.

In that situation "Point Blank" blessing is a secure way to get +20% crit chance versus Surgical that requires you to aim for 0,6s to get the same crit chance. Thus if you aim for less than those 0,6 seconds, then you do only get a <10% crit chance out of this.

If your goal is to stand and snipe (or need a long time to target acquire), and thus take time to aim or aim to pick off targets for longer than 3,5 seconds.. then you are better served with another weapon that has more ammo capacity in the first place... like the proper Bolter. In that case the slightly longer draw speed is no longer a draw back as you will be slow to aim anyway. Tugging on another 0,3 or so seconds onto the draw speed for a proper Bolter isn't going to make a difference.

This is why people don't run Surgical on a Bolt Pistol. There are better alternatives for what you are looking to do.

[Steinar]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

If you use a Pistol, then you bring it to quickly be able to change to it, and snipe enemies real quick.

That's the issue I have. I don't play like a gunslinger when I use the Boltpistol on my Veteran, and that's the POV I'm coming from here.

Originally posted by Ishan451:

then you are better served with another weapon that has more ammo capacity in the first place... like the proper Bolter.

Sometimes I don't want to use the Boltgun, because I want higher mobility, quicker draw speed, shorter reload, different unbraced mechanic, bleeds when hitting enemies, and probably more I'm forgetting.

[lElysiuM]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Surgical IV needs you to aim for 300ms for a +10% crit chance. So 600ms aiming is 20%, 900ms aiming 30%... if you aim for 3 seconds, you get 100% crit chance.

In anything high intensity in this game, you'll likely not spend more than a second aiming before a shot. Even half a second aiming is a bit long... and the Bolt Pistol has "Point blank blessing" which gives you 20% crit chance after a Melee Kill for 3,5 seconds.

Surgical stacks are lost upon firing, so to do 3 shots with +20% crit chance each, all of them have to happen 600ms apart. Meanwhile if you would use "Point Blank IV" you would have to kill a poxwalker and depending on how good your aim is, you could take 3+ shots in the time it takes you to do this (given how Emperor's Aweful how terrible the kickback on the Bolt Pistol is, you'll likely fall into that 750ms refire rate, which isn't enough to build a 3rd stack of Surgical)

So, if you were to run a Weapons Specialist build*, you could reach about 100% crit chance (depending on your talents) with Point Blank blessing by killing 2 Groaners (or anything)... Then you can swap over and you'd get 66% base crit from Ranged Specialist plus the 20% of Point blank, plus whatever else you got going.. for 3,5 seconds. You can take as many shots as you can/want in that time, with no need to wait for Surgical to build new stacks.

Now technically your Ranged Specialist remains up for 5 seconds. So technically you could shoot 2 more bullets if you waited the 600ms between each shot with surgical, compared to melee specialist... but likely you are not standing there sniping people, because if you were... you'd be rocking a Helbore with Surgical. Even the quickest charging Helbore (MK II) will get you to 3-4 stacks of Surgical by the time you release that trigger, giving you a guaranteed 30% crit chance at the very least.

If you want to stand around, stacking 5+ surgical stacks, then you can just use a Helbore MK III or if you really can't go without the Carapace damage... a proper sized bolter. But i cannot imagine a situation in this game, at least not in Auric missions, where you have the luxury to stand aim for 1,5 seconds... that happens so infrequently that building for it, really isn't worth it.

And if you need more than half a second to aim... then why are you carrying a Pistol anyway? The whole point of them is to be able to quickly equip them, shoot and put them away.... if you are a "slow aimer" then get a proper fullsized weapon.


*and if you run Zealot, then you take Duelist and Dodge something for that 50% crit chance on dodge for 3 seconds, which means a single dodge gives you 50% crit chance plus the 20 from Point Blank for a guaranteed 70% crit.

The gun is for psyker, not for veteran :)