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It doesn't have to be a compromise. Plasteel and Diamantine are shared pickups to avoid players rushing and competing over a resource, and the same can apply to ammo.
Scavenger already functions this way. 1) It shares ammo with everyone, 2) it doesn't encourage rushing, 3) you can't be greedy, 4) it doesn't slow down the gameplay, 5) it gives a full mission worth of ammo. Scavenger fixes what's unfun with the ammo economy, which is why players love it. And that's why it's so bad to provide this fix to one class as an Aura, who then feels pressured to select this Aura every time.
I agree. I'm saying the current economy is unhealthy because Scavenger completely warps it. Even with Scavenger present you still need to manage ammo. It just becomes much more enjoyable for the reasons listed above.
The ammo economy and Scavenger's impact on it has been voiced time and again by players and playtesters, and the developers are most likely aware of the issues surrounding it. We have already seen changes. Until more changes are done, ranged builds will continue to see a huge swing in enjoyment based on the presence of Scavenger and player behaviour, while melee builds don't really care.
That means that as long as you're in coherency, the Survivalist will generate the equivalent of 3-6 big bags of ammo for each player.
Ammo is generally not an issue as long as you're not mag dumping into things that don't need mag dumps, or using a wholly inappropriate weapon to take on a target you shouldn't be shooting at.
I’m not entirely sure if you play with a pre-made team that loves to spam their guns the whole time, which ultimately causes the ammo issues in the first place. I’ve had plenty of games where a veteran wasn’t even on the team, and players would know how to spare out the ammo drops between everyone... for the most part. Occasional bad apples would hog or take out of reflex when someone else needed it more, but it was never anything too crippling.
Gun based builds exist, and even those builds can have ammo problems with a scavenger on the team, or serve to be a nuisance to the team by hogging all the ammo drops. Scavenger or not, you will eventually have to switch to your melee for a while.
I think the real issue, however, is that scavenger is just galaxies better of an aura than the other two options. You’re not wrong for picking the other auras as long as you’re having a good time making it work, but it’s quite difficult to branch out to the other auras and commit to them.
Veteran’s skill tree as a whole is just not great, in my opinion. There’s not much wiggle room for gameplay variety. And the reason why scavenger might be a problem is because we see it so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ much. It’s just the best way to play vet. Not the only way, but the best way.
Of course it feels better the same way that one more grenade or recharging grenades feels better but that doesn't mean that the class should just have it for no cost without losing something else.
It wouldn't make much sense to share without reducing the total amount.
Players love it because it lets them dump magazines into trash without being punished for it unlike the other Aura options which provide mediocre benefits.
Veteran tends to benefit the most from it so odds are that you're picking it for yourself most of the time because Ogryns and Psykers don't need it that often and Zealot gets to pick Revolver and focus melee.
You barely manage ammunition with it if the modifier spawns a lot of priority targets because it applies to both elites and specials.
I think that the Aura should be baked into Veteran with a lower % but limited to either elite or special kills instead.
Another option would be to limit it to weak spot kills so that it rewards aim.
I'm sure that FS is aware but I doubt that they're going to get a sensible solution out any time soon based on previous performance(s).
I don't think that's a bad thing as a concept since it's the reason the Aura even exists to begin with but the issue is the implementation.
Despite the devs open comments on what they claimed to want this game to be, they actually tend to reinforce this freakishly austere view of balance.
They tend to push things to anywhere just below fun to anywhere just above barely viable. If we are lucky...
It does lead to a style of PvP like balance where safety is prioritized over fun. Which reinforces the attitudes of threads like this. Which in tern spread and reinforce the delusion.
There are a million ways to address Vet skills being lackluster but we cant have that conversation when half the people in it are mag dumpers with 5% accuracy that built up the idea that we are supposed to constantly be out of ammo.
The fact that the ammo aura is as strong as it is, with the other auras being as bad as they are and their talent tree being as bloated as it is all contribute to the same issue. Like someone else said, the best value even bad vets can bring is by being an ammo bag. Which is tremendous, massive value.
I have no idea as to the numbers but this sounds accurate enough and is a great point. And since outside of the aura those pickups are personal instead of shared, it's easier to understand the difference by just saying it like this: Having the ammo aura is the equivalent of getting up to ~18 big bags total.
But the most important thing about that is both as I said before, it scales with the number of specials+ where ammo pickups or gunspammy teammates certainly do not, and just as importantly it always restores a minimum of 1 ammo which on low-ammo weapons like Revolvers let alone oggy GG / Rumbler is absolutely massive. The Rumbler alone can basically clear any number of anything safely, so long as it has ammo. With the aura it will always have that ammo as long as there's even a few special+ around, since it generates it back faster than it can spend it.
There is no question that the Survivalist aura is tremendously strong, where the other two are so weak and pointless it's as if they literally only exist because each class has to have 3 auras.
Completely agree. Ogryn explosive weapons are really strong but they have really low ammo, so the player needs to manage really well. Its balanced, but the moment there is a scavenger, you have "unlimited" ammo. How do they balance the weapon and ammo then, thinking that there will be always a Vet with scavenger so ammo should be super scarce or when there is no scavenger, because it feels weird. I don't know how could they do it properly to be fair, sharing the ammo pickups could be cool as a team, but then there would be people that doesn't use the ranged much so they stack ammo non stop and the people that use it more would be out of ammo all the time, maybe they should rebalance so there is more ammo in high diff, so if you use a really heavy ranged build you can still decide to use scavenger but its not that important and you can swap to another without feeling that you are wasting your aura. Right now, I think taking 5% damage vs having a ton of ammo, which in the end translates to more damage, is not good.
in summary
works for 1 veteran and 3-2 rapid fire team-mates
it doesn't work with 4 veterans and espically if all 4 are running it
it doesn't work with veteran that are running ammo save builds with Surgical and Shock trooper
and it doesn't work with 3 melee ordinate build's that just don't use it.
on higher level even if you have it your going to run out of ammo anyway since you are shooting so much to survive your going to grab ammo Boxes,Bags and Crates.
This "skill" is a hold over from Vermintide. It exists in Vermintide in form of Baradin's Scout ability that produces little ammo packs at this feet.
Darktide simply removed the busy work of the Veteran sh...dropping little ammo mags that people have to physically pick up.
It has been in the game from the very start of Darktide and survived not one but 2 reworks of the the Veteran's skill tree. Don't expect it to go anywhere. It's clearly working as intended.
The problem is, at least for the moment. There is no pruning the Veteran tree without nerfing the Veteran. Its simply overladen with abilities.
But i do agree the other two Auras need buffs and i would have some ideas for that to make it worthwhile contenders and make the pruning, but that isn't what this thread is about.
This thread is about "Veteran gives me to much ammo, i need it to give less ammo, because Auric doesn't suck enough without it".
Which still doesn't make Auric easier, as you argued earlier. The AI director would simply spawn more ammo caches if the entire team was running in the red.
There isn't an inherent skill issue here. The problem with it, is other people. All the people that run with guns they shouldn't and for which the rest of the team pays. Or the ones that pick up a big red ammo pack, despite missing only 2 bullets in their ammo reservoir.
That is not making Auric harder.. it's making it more tedious and increase the toxicity among the player base.
One could argue to make Ammo pick ups universal like Plasteel. One person picks it up, everyone gets some ammo. That would mitigate the need to bring Survivalist Aura in order to keep doing what you likely want to do. Deal with ranged threats as a Veteran, even if you have one of those Ogryns on the team that never stop shooting and pepper half their mag into the scenery, and then end up hogging every ammo pack that appears.
The same way you balanced the weapon before. Ammo capacities ain't a balancing mechanism. Reload, Swapspeed, accuracy, bloom... that is the type of balancing mechanisms you employ with a gun.
It running out of ammo half way through the match, because Teammate 2 keeps hoovering the ammo, is not something you balance for. Because that isn't something a Dev can control.
You balance a weapon under the assumption the players has all the ammo available, because it needs to be balance from the very first encounter they face. And if you balance the weapon like that, then "unlimited ammo" does not matter, because the weapon will still be balanced.
Congratulations, you just gave everyone on the team "Scavengers" Aura. You now compounded your complaint from "oh if the Veteran with Survivalist Aura is on the team Auric is so easy" to "oh if anyone picks up Ammo we all get ammo an its so easy".
At least before, you people could have played without a Veteran or just not picked the Survivalist Aura, as many Vets do these days, due to scarcity of Talent Points in that convoluted tree.
You can't carry more ammo than your maximum amount. There is no "stacking ammo".
Again, you start out by complaining about how the Veteran's Survivalist Aura makes Auric to easy because it gives to much ammo to the team and now you are apparently still wanting to nerf the Veteran's ability, at the expense of adding more ammo to the level.
Which, mind you, is already happening. The AI director distributes pick ups based on the need of the group. If everyone is on empty, then there are more chances for Ammo crates and such. Of course, you have to find them, which slows the progression of the team down and increase attrition on high difficulty matches. Turning the game from an enjoyable 25 to 30 minute, high intensity match, to a 45 minute slog fest.
Which is an issue with the other Aura options and not with the Survivalist Aura.
With an ammo vet on the team i can go through an entire maelstrom mission spamming the kickback. Without an ammo vet you can't do that or you'll run out of ammo before you get 20% through a mission.
That little "bonus" completely alters the game balance.
I'm aware and that's why I've made the argument that it should be changed.
In patch 13 it will now track fractions instead of rounding always rounding to 1.
That means your typical Revolver needs 2 kills for a shot, and Rumbler needs 3.
The game is very playable without veteran running that aura and with no psyker.
Ammo only matters when you don't have enough; if you only shoot enemies you need to shoot, it's very difficult to not have enough ammo even on auric maelstrom(for one, the monsters are often erased by grenade alone if you have 2 vets). If the map has literally no ammo drop(pretty sure it can still have grenade), maybe learn to melee better and build accordingly.