I don't understand nerfs in a PvE game.

[Exreider]

In a PvE game, these character and weapon nerfs will only cause players to lose the game. Instead of upgrading or modifying unused talents and weapons to make them competitive within the game, they weaken the weapons, talents, and characters that people have been building. There is no PvP, there is no Competitive or anything like that. So why nerf instead of polishing and making weapons viable?
I personally am very clear, this is only going to lead to a loss of players.

[Exreider]

Цитата допису Kha:

The reason for balance is:

Outlying overpowered options devalue non-overpowered options, effectively limiting your options and making variety pointless.

That AND: No balance equals no challenge, a game that poses no challenge is generally considered boring. Imagine, if you will, a game where you press a single button and every obstacle that stands before you crumbles to dust, is that entertaining? Perhaps to you, for me? Not really, which is why i'm playing this game, and not whatever game lets you do that.

My thoughts upon seeing that they nerfed bleeding and the Ogryn's bleed on heavy wasn't "NOOOOO!!! HOW DARE THEY NERF THE THING I LIKED! GIVE IT BAAACK! GIVE IT BAAACK!" it was "Huh, darn, i might actually have to do more than land 1 heavy attack on an enemy now."

PS. Also, it should be very obvious that simply buffing absolutely everything to match other buffs you've made serves zero purpose. Ah, i'll buff this weapon to make it perform better, but then i'll also buff the enemies so they're not complete pushovers, but now i have to buff the weapon to...and so on and so forth. Balance is important, in multiplayer and in solo games, it's not rocket science.

I don't see a problem with all classes or weapons being able to do the same damage. The important thing is to know how they do it, some can be from burts, others from damage over time, others from sustained damage, etc...

[Kha]

Цитата допису Five:

Цитата допису Kha:

Honesetly the whole perception that nerfs are somehow a negative thing is such an oddity. It's almost like people who love to use and abuse overpowered ♥♥♥♥ also love to lie to themselves. telling themselves that no, it's not that the character, weapon, ability or whatever they're using is overpowered, but that they're just that good. And having the thing get nerfed not only breaks that illusion, but also means they don't get to abuse the blatantly overpowered thing anymore.

Like, i legit saw folk complaining that the VERY CLEARLY BUGGED INFINITE SMITE was fixed. Saying that the ability is useless now, ya can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up.

Bugs are a separate issue, and nerfs are literally a negative thing. Technically speaking. You're taking away something, making something weaker, etc.

How could the perception be anything other than reality?

But most people understand that balance (and nerfs) are necessary. The point isn't that 'nothing should be balanced everyone should be OP and walk through the game with ease' like people seem to be strawmanning? The point is that there's a better way of doing things

Because if they had buffed instead of nerfed, all of this negativity people are discussing right now wouldn't be happening

So you're just saying that FS should've just nerfed things via a more roundabout, time consuming process? Because buffing everything to balance things out rather than buffing and nerfing as necessary is just that, and that's just silly. Also i don't think it's really all that much of a strawman when OP is effectively saying that nerfing shouldn't be a thing in PvE games, as if the argument is somehow different for PvP games.

[Exreider]

Цитата допису fungus:

Цитата допису Five:

Okay but you realize that by nerfing damage you're also bloating the numbers...

The point of the solution is to keep X thing from killing Y thing in 1 second let's say

Whether you buff Y or nerf X if it now takes 10 seconds to kill Y, you've bloated the numbers.

It's literally just a psychological issue, we're advocating for the same thing but doing it from a positive perspective will make the entire community better, it's psych 101

Except that's not the case at all?
Number/stat bloat doesn't refer to separate measurements of ttk and whatnot, it's about in game measurements where the numbers get higher and higher and cause more and more issues because of it.
so for example, let's say you need 3,000 DPS to kill this enemy in 10 seconds, just as a random figure
See if power creep occurred and it was countered by enemy buffing, that exact same situation where you kill an enemy in 10 seconds would now be 12,000 DPS, instead of keeping it at the low, easy to process and easy to balance around 3,000
hence, the numbers are bloated, bigger than they need to be and it makes adjusting things to retain that same level of balance infinitely harder since there are so many more figures to work around
I'm tired so maybe I didn't illustrate this well but hopefully it gets the point across
Number bloating is about the in game displayed measurements/stats, hence number bloat exists

To improve a weapon you don't need to inflate numbers, you just need it to be useful, it's that simple.

[Five]

Цитата допису fungus:

Цитата допису Five:

Yea it doesn't matter what numbers you show on screen, the thing that matters is the TTK

I guess to some degree having bigger numbers displayed can be more mentally taxing from a psychological perspective but whether you show me 12,000 or 12 the thing that matters to me as the player is "how long did it take to kill that mob"

That's why terms like "Time to kill" and "effective HP" exist because from a game design perspective those are the only numbers that really "matter" everything else is just flavor


To use a different example, take an RPG. A game designer wants you to get a new level every 10-20 minutes of play, that's the stat that matters

Whether they give you 12 XP a minute and you need 120 XP to level, or they give you 12,000 xp a minute and you ned 120,000 xp to level doesn't matter it takes the same amount of time

Except those numbers do absolutely matter, because now the devs have that many more figures to consider when balancing around their game. Besides, the numbers thing is one small point in overall debate, and hell, we're talking about it right now. Why create so many issues trying to stop people from being mildly disappointed for 10 minutes instead of just
nerfing the thing that's a little too good
In order to bring everything up to a higher bar constantly and actually retain good balance, the entire game needs to shift around constantly. I would much rather the devs just take the time to carefully nerf something to appropriate levels and move on doing other things for the game, instead of trying to appeal to people to avoid slightly hurt feelings over a video game.

Because all of these issues, including this entire discussion thread stems from the negativity that's inherent with nerfing things

I would much rather the devs just take the time to carefully buff something to appropriate levels and move on doing other things for the game <<<

[Kha]

Цитата допису Exreider:

Цитата допису Kha:

The reason for balance is:

Outlying overpowered options devalue non-overpowered options, effectively limiting your options and making variety pointless.

That AND: No balance equals no challenge, a game that poses no challenge is generally considered boring. Imagine, if you will, a game where you press a single button and every obstacle that stands before you crumbles to dust, is that entertaining? Perhaps to you, for me? Not really, which is why i'm playing this game, and not whatever game lets you do that.

My thoughts upon seeing that they nerfed bleeding and the Ogryn's bleed on heavy wasn't "NOOOOO!!! HOW DARE THEY NERF THE THING I LIKED! GIVE IT BAAACK! GIVE IT BAAACK!" it was "Huh, darn, i might actually have to do more than land 1 heavy attack on an enemy now."

PS. Also, it should be very obvious that simply buffing absolutely everything to match other buffs you've made serves zero purpose. Ah, i'll buff this weapon to make it perform better, but then i'll also buff the enemies so they're not complete pushovers, but now i have to buff the weapon to...and so on and so forth. Balance is important, in multiplayer and in solo games, it's not rocket science.

I don't see a problem with all classes or weapons being able to do the same damage. The important thing is to know how they do it, some can be from burts, others from damage over time, others from sustained damage, etc...

I don't see the problem with getting there via nerfs, i don't see why you would need to only ever buff things instead. Ultimately what matters is that the game is balanced, i fail to see why you need to go about it in a roundabout way to please people who see a minus and go "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!". Again, that's an issue with the people, not the game.

If something stands out as being overpowered, it makes far more sense to nerf that one thing, rather than change everything in the game to work around said thing.

[Owndizzel]

Цитата допису Exreider:

I personally am very clear, this is only going to lead to a loss of players.

People said the same thing, when they balanced Power Cycle for Vet.

And the end result was that you couldn't equip power sword on higher diff., and play with your monitor turned off. You actually had to put some brain cells towards the task of playing the game.

[fungus]

Цитата допису Five:

Цитата допису Kha:

Honesetly the whole perception that nerfs are somehow a negative thing is such an oddity. It's almost like people who love to use and abuse overpowered ♥♥♥♥ also love to lie to themselves. telling themselves that no, it's not that the character, weapon, ability or whatever they're using is overpowered, but that they're just that good. And having the thing get nerfed not only breaks that illusion, but also means they don't get to abuse the blatantly overpowered thing anymore.

Like, i legit saw folk complaining that the VERY CLEARLY BUGGED INFINITE SMITE was fixed. Saying that the ability is useless now, ya can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up.

Bugs are a separate issue, and nerfs are literally a negative thing. Technically speaking. You're taking away something, making something weaker, etc.

How could the perception be anything other than reality?

But most people understand that balance (and nerfs) are necessary. The point isn't that 'nothing should be balanced everyone should be OP and walk through the game with ease' like people seem to be strawmanning? The point is that there's a better way of doing things

Because if they had buffed instead of nerfed, all of this negativity people are discussing right now wouldn't be happening

And I hate to be this argumentative, but really, if they had say
buffed everything up to pre class rework guardsman levels, there would be threads of people like me complaining that power creep is already ruining the game, as it already has so many others of a similar design philosophy. And hell, even if nerfs somehow had such a massive effect on the community, I'd still rather have a good game with an abrasive and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ community than an unbalanced nightmare of a game with a half decent community

[Exreider]

Цитата допису Kha:

Honesetly the whole perception that nerfs are somehow a negative thing is such an oddity. It's almost like people who love to use and abuse overpowered ♥♥♥♥ also love to lie to themselves. telling themselves that no, it's not that the character, weapon, ability or whatever they're using is overpowered, but that they're just that good. And having the thing get nerfed not only breaks that illusion, but also means they don't get to abuse the blatantly overpowered thing anymore.

Like, i legit saw folk complaining that the VERY CLEARLY BUGGED INFINITE SMITE was fixed. Saying that the ability is useless now, ya can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up.

Nerfs are fine when there is PvP or competitive mode involved. But in this type of video games I only see negative things. And if you don't believe me or have doubts, so be it, look at the number of players who will play in two weeks. I guarantee it won't increase.

[Fryskar]

Цитата допису Five:

Цитата допису Moffin Bovin:

yeah. i wonder why companies don't do 100 times the workload to achieve the same result. Just to appease a handful of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idiots who will probably complain anyway.

its a mystery.

I don't even know where to begin with how dumb this is...

It's all number tweaking, there's no more or less workload based on where you tweak the numbers...

Nerf 2-3 weapons or buff 20-30 along with 20-30 enemies?

[fungus]

Цитата допису Five:

Цитата допису fungus:

Except those numbers do absolutely matter, because now the devs have that many more figures to consider when balancing around their game. Besides, the numbers thing is one small point in overall debate, and hell, we're talking about it right now. Why create so many issues trying to stop people from being mildly disappointed for 10 minutes instead of just
nerfing the thing that's a little too good
In order to bring everything up to a higher bar constantly and actually retain good balance, the entire game needs to shift around constantly. I would much rather the devs just take the time to carefully nerf something to appropriate levels and move on doing other things for the game, instead of trying to appeal to people to avoid slightly hurt feelings over a video game.

Because all of these issues, including this entire discussion thread stems from the negativity that's inherent with nerfing things

I would much rather the devs just take the time to carefully buff something to appropriate levels and move on doing other things for the game <<<

Except that's the issue with buffing everything, because the entire game has to play catch-up. They can't simply "buff and move on", because now a new difficulty needs to be implemented, enemy numbers need to be adjusted, spawn rates tweaked, so on and so forth if the game is going to retain a similar balance to before. And then, when something new and powerful inevitably comes along, they'll have to do the whole song and dance all over again and waste huge amounts of time.
This could all be avoided if they simply nerfed the OP thing down to a similar level as everything else. No need to rebalance the entire game around it.

[Kha]

Цитата допису Exreider:

Цитата допису Kha:

Honesetly the whole perception that nerfs are somehow a negative thing is such an oddity. It's almost like people who love to use and abuse overpowered ♥♥♥♥ also love to lie to themselves. telling themselves that no, it's not that the character, weapon, ability or whatever they're using is overpowered, but that they're just that good. And having the thing get nerfed not only breaks that illusion, but also means they don't get to abuse the blatantly overpowered thing anymore.

Like, i legit saw folk complaining that the VERY CLEARLY BUGGED INFINITE SMITE was fixed. Saying that the ability is useless now, ya can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up.

Nerfs are fine when there is PvP or competitive mode involved. But in this type of video games I only see negative things. And if you don't believe me or have doubts, so be it, look at the number of players who will play in two weeks. I guarantee it won't increase.

I already explained why "You'll see in X amount of time" is a pointless thing to say, but alright.

And again, why does it become any different in a competitive or PvP setting? just buff everything until it's balanced! It's just as dumb there as it is here. Something stands out as being too weak? Buff it. Something's too strong? Nerf it. Simple as, you don't alter the entire damn game in order for it to better match the things that stand out.

[CombustiblSquid]

I know this will be debated to death, but balance in a pve game is important to keep people playing. If all you ever do is buff weapons, you end up with out of control power creep and the game becomes a walking sim. I don't want to play a walking sim.

[Taiji]

Цитата допису Exreider:

In a PvE game, these character and weapon nerfs will only cause players to lose the game. Instead of upgrading or modifying unused talents and weapons to make them competitive within the game, they weaken the weapons, talents, and characters that people have been building. There is no PvP, there is no Competitive or anything like that. So why nerf instead of polishing and making weapons viable?
I personally am very clear, this is only going to lead to a loss of players.

When a few things are OP, and the rest seems better balanced, it makes sense to nerf those few things because it is less work, and less can go wrong.

Yes, some frustrated players will leave the game. But the game will be better for the changes, since better balance makes a game feel like the player has more choice, and perhaps that means more people will feel enticed to play the game.

Think about the alternative. They buff everything else, which is more work, then the game is too easy no matter what you play, so they have to buff the enemies too. It makes far more sense to nerf a few things and piss off a few people.

[Exreider]

Цитата допису Kha:

Цитата допису Exreider:

It's true that I'm not a video game designer. But I'm a gamer and I've played games my whole life and I've seen it many times and I know how it will end. These patches nerfing things NEVER do anything good. It only makes the number of players go down. And if you don't believe me, look at the game in 2 weeks once this patch is over and we will see the decline in players

...any number of things could happen in 2 weeks, any number of reasons could cause a decline, not to mention that major updates tend to cause a temporary increase in players. You're not really saying much of anything with this statement, it doesn't mean ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ now, it won't mean ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in 2 weeks, it's just a pointless thing to say. Not to mention that nobody is going to bother remembering you said this for 2 whole weeks, unless you're planning on necroing this post after it eventually dies.

Also naw, hard disagree. Nerfs and buffs if done right can be very good for the long term health of the game, while as bad nerfs and bad buffs have the opposite effect.

Nerfs are a positive thing, but not in this type of video game. These games are made so that people can play for a few hours, have fun and have a good time with or without their friends. What you are promoting when you nerf these video games is frustration, frustration knowing that the build you built has been nerfed, that you spent 10 or 15 hours building it and then it comes to nothing. This is not a positive thing for the players. Something positive would be not to nerf anything and MODIFY other classes, weapons and talents so that they are competitive and comparable to the others that are already used and effective. What would this cause? Well, people want to try the new modifications they introduced. This generates several things, the first is that it does not generate any frustration or waste of time, because it knows that if another build that was made at the beginning is going to remain the same (since they do not nerf anything), second, it will invest more time in the game You're going to have to try and get those new weapons talents etc... that they have introduced.

[Moffin Bovin]

Цитата допису Kha:

Цитата допису Exreider:

Nerfs are fine when there is PvP or competitive mode involved. But in this type of video games I only see negative things. And if you don't believe me or have doubts, so be it, look at the number of players who will play in two weeks. I guarantee it won't increase.

I already explained why "You'll see in X amount of time" is a pointless thing to say, but alright.

And again, why does it become any different in a competitive or PvP setting? just buff everything until it's balanced! It's just as dumb there as it is here. Something stands out as being too weak? Buff it. Something's too strong? Nerf it. Simple as, you don't alter the entire damn game in order for it to better match the things that stand out.

its not just that. the more things you change, the more likely you are to ♥♥♥♥ it up.

if something is too strong you can nerf it, but if you mess it up and over nerf it you can still bring it back up in teh next patch. You have a point of reference for what is too far and what is too weak. so, you are more likely to get it right on the 2nd or 3rd try.

but buff everything? you have a very high chance of messing something up and going too far. If your mentality is to only buff then you have no choice but to buff everything again. except this time you have no point of reference for whats too much. You are going to mess up again and again and again with no light at the end of the tunnel.