whats the current meta weapons for veteran?

[livin']

im starting to try out vet but there's a lot of weapons compared to ogryn

[Triggerhappy]

Ishan451 a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

revolver is the only troll pick really. laspistol has a high headshot mod and base crit chance; it actually does a good job, but not as efficiently as other choices. Revolver is just outright bad- no good weakspot or crit mod, even though it has a crit stat.

It has the highest carapace damage of all ranged weapons and if you lean into a crit build its a good sidearm for a melee focused character that wants to whip out a gun quickly and delete a Rager with a Headshot or take down a Crusher.

Every helbore does higher carapace damage. The mk3 is the highest, and can 2-shot a crusher if you choose the ogryn dmg feat (30-3). Similarly, a bolter can kill two or three crushers in one mag, where the revolver would have to reload for even just one crusher. A revolver will knock a crusher down, but the utility isn't as good as just killing them.

And even if you add maniac damage to a headhunter, it has low base mods for that armor class, so it's really not adding a lot of extra damage regardless.

The mk3 helbore's problem is the ammo efficiency, not the charge time. The charge time isn't horrible, because a half charge can kill shooters while in ult. You full-charge for elites and specials. The mk2 doesn't do enough damage to elites and specials, so it ends up being inefficient compared to the others (like trying to compare the other lasguns to the kantrael).

[Triggerhappy]

❛❛Liechée❜❜ a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

decimator on tac axes is horrible, but it's ok on combat axes.

On tac axes, it doesn't start stacking until the third hit, and doesn't meet headtaker in damage until about the 12th or 13th hit because it needs to stack 10 times for full effect. Headtaker reaches 25% by the time decimator only has 10%, and has three extra hits at 25% by the time decimator reaches 25%. Decimator is just playing catchup to headtaker up to the 12th hit. So, unless you plan to hit something more than 12 consecutive times without blocking or shoving, then it's not really worth it over headtaker.

For combat axes, they for whatever reason start stacking after the first hit, and only need to stack 5 times, with more power each stack. Pair it with brutal momentum and you can get enough stacks to match headtaker after a shove, but if you're using an antax that could take you out of 1shot breakpoints for non-elite scabs and dregs, so you end up having better combat effectiveness in the long run with headtaker in hordes, but less against bigger targets.

Honestly, Deci on Tac Axes isn't that bad than you make it out to be. Headtaker would obviously be a better pick but Deci on Tac Axe is a hit or miss on the player compared to Combat Axes. Unlike Headtaker at full stack you can't one hit Poxwalkers effectively but with Decimator, you can pretty much decimate a horde since you can kill them in one hit effectively. Also it takes 11 Consecutive hits for a full stack and running BM is mandatory to gain those stacks faster. Ofcourse, you would definitely need good modifiers to make it work that way and a Deci 4, otherwise I wouldn't normally bother.

You don't lose that much combat effectiveness in Hordes in the long run. In fact you are more effective in the long run than Headtaker because stacking Deci is so easy and your dmg is just so much better that the Horde is just gone. On big targets like Ogryns or Ragers, it does indeed get finnicky on which I'll have to admit, though if you use the special preemptively (Mostly Antax) it'll stagger the Rager off combo but if its a group of Ragers might as well use a gun or stagger them to death or time your strikes really well.

All that matters is hitting those 1shot breakpoints, and headtaker meets those breakpoints for tac axes. Decimator just isn't needed. Similarly for combat axes.

[Raynn von Valancius]

Personally, I roll with the Helbore MkII and an Atrox MKVII axe.

The Helbore is great once you get a feel for how much charge is needed to one shot/two shot enemies. It has good armor penetration, but the sights are complete garbage.

The Atrox has great mobility and good strikedown. The speed and mobility is really nice for my style. The power sword is a beast, especially once you nab a good level of Power Cycler for it. I just dislike it because it made me lazy when it came to dodging. But to each their own.

The Kant MKXII is the best all around even into the higher levels (heresy and damnation). So it's also a solid choice.

[Ishan451]

Triggerhappy a écrit :

Every helbore does higher carapace damage. The mk3 is the highest, and can 2-shot a crusher if you choose the ogryn dmg feat (30-3).

The Helbore Mk1 does 353 on a weakspot hit with a full charge. That is with a 79% damage stat and not applicable Perks or Blessings.

The MK 2 does 332 damage on a weakspot hit with a full charge. That is with an 80% damage stat and no applicable Perks or Blessings.

For the MK 3, i unfortunately only had a 74% damage stat available, but it did 547 damage on a weakspot hit with a full charge. And yes, with the 75% damage boost from the Ogryn damage feat it does 1227 damage on a weakspot hit, making it a two shot.

And the Revolver does only 222 damage on a weakspot head hit with 78% damage stat and merely 551 with Volleyfire. It will however kill that Crusher just fine with the Volley Fire.

Triggerhappy a écrit :

Similarly, a bolter can kill two or three crushers in one mag

You have to really specifically build for that.

Lets start with the fact that you can't weakspot hit a crusher with the Bolter from more than 5 meter away. You have to be pretty much in melee range for the Bolter to register Weakspot hits.

A regular hit with the bolter will be somewhere between 120 and 270 damage. About 230+/-10 being the most common damage you'll get. I do unfortunately have to disregard the number of crits i got, because the bolter i have is build for crits... but here i would see numbers between 200 and 280 damage (and that is with a +10% crit damage perk)

Even with Volleyfire and Anti Ogryn damage it takes 10 of the 15 shots to kill a crusher, without a +carapace damage quirk. I can reduce this to 7 shots by going on long range with the Damage bonus for long range the Veteran possesses. If you have a +25% carapace damage perk, then yeah, maybe you can lean into this a bit more and get it down to 5 shots... but i very much doubt that to be possible under non Psykhanium Circumstances.

But anyway, regardless i stand corrected on the Revolver being the highest carapace damage of the ranged weapons. I failed to consider the Helbore and the Plasma gun (this one also clocks in at around 375+/-75 damage on the non charge and 1200+ on the charged damage).

Triggerhappy a écrit :

where the revolver would have to reload for even just one crusher.

I can kill a crusher with a single load, if i have the +Ogryn damage feat. And that was with a grey weapon, no perks or blessings (as the Revolver i otherwise have has carapace damage on it and it just wouldn't be fair to use a revolver that is build for high crit with carapace damage for this, when my bolter isn't)

And even without, you would use the Revolver with the Sustained Fire Talent (30/1), which reloads your weapon on Volley Fire, and gives you a Toughness boost. Since the goal with the Veteran and a Revolver would be to melee and use the Revolver only for Volley Fire uptime, to keep the Damage bonus going... you of course would use a Volley Fire perk that aids you in that. Toughness replenishment+reloading of the weapon+damage resistance.

At least so my understanding. Again, since it seems to get lost here: I do not and did not advocate for the Revolver as being a good pick. I responded to the question as to what the Meta is and it seems there is a Meta for people to lean into a Melee Veteran, using the Revolver and its OHK potential, to keep the damage resistance on the Volley Fire going.

I do not advocate for this at all, just sharing my thoughts on this. I don't play like this, i rather would not have Veterans play as Melee Veterans, but some really love their Powerswords.

Triggerhappy a écrit :

And even if you add maniac damage to a headhunter, it has low base mods for that armor class, so it's really not adding a lot of extra damage regardless.

It is adding enough to make reduce the number of shots required by 1. Which is why i put the Maniac perk onto my Vraks MK3 in the first place. I tested it extensively in the Psykhanium before coming to the conclusion to use the Maniac perk. Admittedly, i tested that with the Zealot, not the Veteran, to remove any unnecessary Talents and such from interfering.

Triggerhappy a écrit :

The mk3 helbore's problem is the ammo efficiency, not the charge time. The charge time isn't horrible, because a half charge can kill shooters while in ult.

Why would you charge your helbore to kill shooters? Aim for their heads... the MK2 needs a Flakarmor perk for this, but MK 1 and 3 both will OHK shooters on an uncharged shot to their weakspot.

Triggerhappy a écrit :

You full-charge for elites and specials.

And that takes way to long on Damnation to be useful. Charging for 5 minutes (okay its more like 1,5 seconds) to delete 1 special of elite is simply unacceptable when they show up in groups of 6+

[❛❛Vénttea❜❜]

Triggerhappy a écrit :

All that matters is hitting those 1shot breakpoints, and headtaker meets those breakpoints for tac axes. Decimator just isn't needed. Similarly for combat axes.

For headshots? Yes.
For body? No.
Tac Axes doesn't efficiently meet the bodyshot breakpoints compared to Decimator.
Combat Axes doesn't necessarily need it as much compared to Tac Axes for Body shots. Though if you want to clear more faster, Decimator can do just that since they are more efficient at one hit bodyshots even with Brutal Momentum cleave.

[Triggerhappy]

❛❛Liechée❜❜ a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

All that matters is hitting those 1shot breakpoints, and headtaker meets those breakpoints for tac axes. Decimator just isn't needed. Similarly for combat axes.

For headshots? Yes.
For body? No.
Tac Axes doesn't efficiently meet the bodyshot breakpoints compared to Decimator.
Combat Axes doesn't necessarily need it as much compared to Tac Axes for Body shots. Though if you want to clear more faster, Decimator can do just that since they are more efficient at one hit bodyshots even with Brutal Momentum cleave.

You can effectively hit heads with any axe (though the mk4 tac has just an absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥ attack pattern). Body breakpoints are also unnecessary to try to build for. The only argument I can make for decimator is to get to 1shot breakpoint on light attacks for every non-elite, but I haven't tested if that's possible.

edit-a quick breakpoint calc says that it's not possible to 1shot with lights on a tac axe even with headtaker, decimator, and zealot +25%dmg feat stacked. You'd also need stacks of zealot passive to meet that breakpoint, but then it would be just for dreg bruisers and not scab bruisers. With just headtaker and nothing zealot-related, it's 2-shot with lights, same with decimator stacked, so there's no advantage with decimator there either.

[Triggerhappy]

Ishan451 a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

Every helbore does higher carapace damage. The mk3 is the highest, and can 2-shot a crusher if you choose the ogryn dmg feat (30-3).

The Helbore Mk1 does 353 on a weakspot hit with a full charge. That is with a 79% damage stat and not applicable Perks or Blessings.

The MK 2 does 332 damage on a weakspot hit with a full charge. That is with an 80% damage stat and no applicable Perks or Blessings.

For the MK 3, i unfortunately only had a 74% damage stat available, but it did 547 damage on a weakspot hit with a full charge. And yes, with the 75% damage boost from the Ogryn damage feat it does 1227 damage on a weakspot hit, making it a two shot.

And the Revolver does only 222 damage on a weakspot head hit with 78% damage stat and merely 551 with Volleyfire. It will however kill that Crusher just fine with the Volley Fire.

I don't build carapace dmg on anything because it just doesn't appear enough to be an issue, so I'm trying to instead meet 1-2shots for shooters and elites that aren't carapace. For helbores, the mk3 should be able to 1shot body everything except for maulers and ogryns, though it can 1shot a bulwark with a hs crit. With sustained fire it can 2shot hs an ogryn gunner without ult. During ult you should be able to 1shot body shooters (bc when they run away it's not particularly easy to hit their head). Half-charge should eat the same ammo as un-charged, and it doesn't take much extra tiime, so I imagine the time it takes to line up a hs as opposed to a messy bodyshot could equal out. My ideal breakpoint that needs an absolutely perfect roll is a 1shot body to shotgunners without ult.

And while yah, you kinda gotta build to kill multiple crushers in one mag, all it takes is slapping on shattering impact- it increases dmg to carapace 250% after a couple hits. It's absolutely ridonkulous, not even taking into consideration that it's a target debuff so the rest of your team also does more dmg to it, and you don't need to ult unless you see more than 2 crushers or whatever. You don't even need the ogryn feat or +cara dmg, though if you did take the ogryn feat you could lay out 5 crushers easily in one mag. You can't build anything like that on a revolver, or even a plas rifle.

And my original reply is that revolver is overshadowed by every single other weapon. If you say something a revolver can do, it's likely another weapon will be able to do it *a lot* better. It's not even a jack-of-all type weapon, which a bolter would fit best into. Its claim to fame is high cleave, where it can hit something through a dense crowd (like 6 targets deep). Other than that it's not really a worthwhile pick given pretty much any other choice (hence "not meta").

And adding maniac dmg to most any other weapon that's not a headhunter will give a much bigger boost. I add maniac to the kantrael and to combat axes because they do absolutely ridiculous maniac dmg to begin with and it helps with deleting them before they become an issue. It's not really worth it on most other weapons because they just don't have the base mods vs maniacs to be effective. Taking a headhunter 1 shot less to kill a flamer is ok, but a kantrael can just 1shot it, and every shooter, and shotgunner, etc. That's the important distinction to make.

Now, if you were to make a comparison between the kantrael, an inf auto, and a bolter, you can make pros/♥♥♥♥ between them, but the headhunters don't really offer any pros and just ♥♥♥♥.

And I don't know why you'd complain about an easy 1-1.5 per sec elite delete. That's about as fast as you can get. I stopped using helbores because they're glitchy as ♥♥♥♥ and tend to get all weird when you try to weapon swap while charging, or if you try to charge too soon after your last shot. It also sucks when people get in your way for one shot and you lost a huge chunk of dmg, when that same 'mr president' move wouldn't net negative you as much with a diff weapon.

[Ishan451]

Triggerhappy a écrit :

And I don't know why you'd complain about an easy 1-1.5 per sec elite delete.

Because the MK 1 OHK's pretty much all meaningful elites and most specials (with exception of Mutant) with a single Weakspot hit. It's charge time also nicely aligns with Surgical Strike... meaning by the time its fully charged you will have 4-5 stacks of +4/+5% Crit chance.

That is why the MK3 is a bad pick. It doesn't really provide more utility over the MK1, but the MK1 is faster in doing the same job. (And i would have to check but i believe it also costs fewer charges of your Mag to do so)

[❛❛Vénttea❜❜]

Triggerhappy a écrit :

You can effectively hit heads with any axe (though the mk4 tac has just an absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥ attack pattern). Body breakpoints are also unnecessary to try to build for. The only argument I can make for decimator is to get to 1shot breakpoint on light attacks for every non-elite, but I haven't tested if that's possible.

edit-a quick breakpoint calc says that it's not possible to 1shot with lights on a tac axe even with headtaker, decimator, and zealot +25%dmg feat stacked. You'd also need stacks of zealot passive to meet that breakpoint, but then it would be just for dreg bruisers and not scab bruisers. With just headtaker and nothing zealot-related, it's 2-shot with lights, same with decimator stacked, so there's no advantage with decimator there either.

In the midst of chaos and the games physics with attack patterns, its not always guaranteed to hit the head and yes this is just the light Attacks but I did this on an Tac Atrox 7 and in a Poxwalker horde it will die in one hit on the body. I did this on my Veteran. Will admit, it is trickier on Scab Bruiser and Dreg Bruiser hordes where it will die in like 2 - 4 hits as opposed to one.

Breakpoint calculation is fine and Psykanium tests, but field testing will always have a different result due to multiple factors, such as consistency, movement, positioning, situation etc.etc. Anyone can push and make numbers, making it practical is a different thing altogether and individual playstyle.

Though I am keeping this on Vet only. On Zealot, it's pretty much a shredder and highly more effective due to the atk speed increase, passive dmg feats and other dmg feats put on top. Scab Bruisers will vary if you hit the body and Dreg Bruisers will vary if you hit the head, but because you attack so damn fast than a Veteran with more Melee DPS, it hardly matters.

Regardless, Decimator does have DPS advantages overtime uptime advantages. The way I see it is that a hardcore Tac Axe user benefits the most out of Decimator over a Casual Tac Axe user on a Veteran. Now I would say using Tac Axe isn't optimal on a Veteran as you got more work cut out for them, while Headtaker is a good pick for Tac Axe, I would say Decimator would just be fine. It being horrible is definitely not.

[Ferris Bueler]

Agrapina Brace Gun for me. Its " When you absolutely, positively have to kil every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the room." If you can master it, its devastatingly powerful. You can kill snipers with it and destroy ragers, maniacs, and bullwarks with ease., and when used with volleyfire that reloads you automatically its great at mowing down hordes. Ive taken it it from malice, to heresy and damnation . You do have to be more mindful with your ammo though in heresy and dammnation...

[Triggerhappy]

❛❛Liechée❜❜ a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

You can effectively hit heads with any axe (though the mk4 tac has just an absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥ attack pattern). Body breakpoints are also unnecessary to try to build for. The only argument I can make for decimator is to get to 1shot breakpoint on light attacks for every non-elite, but I haven't tested if that's possible.

edit-a quick breakpoint calc says that it's not possible to 1shot with lights on a tac axe even with headtaker, decimator, and zealot +25%dmg feat stacked. You'd also need stacks of zealot passive to meet that breakpoint, but then it would be just for dreg bruisers and not scab bruisers. With just headtaker and nothing zealot-related, it's 2-shot with lights, same with decimator stacked, so there's no advantage with decimator there either.

In the midst of chaos and the games physics with attack patterns, its not always guaranteed to hit the head and yes this is just the light Attacks but I did this on an Tac Atrox 7 and in a Poxwalker horde it will die in one hit on the body. I did this on my Veteran. Will admit, it is trickier on Scab Bruiser and Dreg Bruiser hordes where it will die in like 2 - 4 hits as opposed to one.

For tac axes the breakpoint is 1shot with a heavy to the head (mk2 is a simple heavy pattern, but mk7 is a push-attack-heavy-heavy pattern which the zealot makes better use of, and the push attack counts as a heavy too so you get a few very quick heavies out all the time while still being very safe from all the shoves). You need t4 headtaker with at least 20-25% to both unarmored and flak and near 80% to dmg and penetration to get that breakpoint. You'll get to that breakpoint a lot faster with headtaker than decimator too btw. Heavies for tac axes come out about as quick as aatrox combat axe lights, but slightly slower than the other combat axes. mk2 has a great heavy combo and good light combo, but attacks slower than the mk7, so I just use the mk7 if I want to crit build the zealot. I used to use the mk2 on my vet, but prefer the rashad combat axe now because I can just left click all day unless a mauler or crusher comes over. The rashad has wide swings on the lights and the bonus weakspot dmg mod allows me to 1shot on the first hit rather than on the second.

And on the decimator not being horrible on a tac axe, well, except for extremely rare cases, it mostly is. Like you said shred is a decent pick on it that behaves similarly, but its advantage is that it starts stacking right away instead of on the third hit, so it still wins out there. I have shred and headtaker on my mk7 for zealot, and brutal momentum w/headtaker on the mk2 for my vet, and they 1shot without decimator just fine, and without needing bonus dmg feats. The only time decimator would make a difference is when there are is an absolute train of crushers making an entrance, but that happens in like 1 out of every 25 runs, so it's not something to build for.

[Triggerhappy]

Joffie a écrit :

Agrapina Brace Gun for me. Its " When you absolutely, positively have to kil every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the room." If you can master it, its devastatingly powerful. You can kill snipers with it and destroy ragers, maniacs, and bullwarks with ease., and when used with volleyfire that reloads you automatically its great at mowing down hordes. Ive taken it it from malice, to heresy and damnation . You do have to be more mindful with your ammo though in heresy and dammnation...

agreed. It's my preferred hi-int shock troop pick for vet, and my generalist pick for zealot. It just does everything except crushers, but on zealot that's also a non-issue. That said I've been running a kantrael on the zealot lately because vets lately haven't been dealing with shooters well enough for my liking. I prefer having more across-the-board effectiveness though. Bolter can do that too, but on zealot it's just too lumbering. Vet can keep it out and reload it faster, but the reload is still too slow and ammo economy too tight for hi-int shocktroop.

[❛❛Vénttea❜❜]

Triggerhappy a écrit :

For tac axes the breakpoint is 1shot with a heavy to the head (mk2 is a simple heavy pattern, but mk7 is a push-attack-heavy-heavy pattern which the zealot makes better use of, and the push attack counts as a heavy too so you get a few very quick heavies out all the time while still being very safe from all the shoves). You need t4 headtaker with at least 20-25% to both unarmored and flak and near 80% to dmg and penetration to get that breakpoint. You'll get to that breakpoint a lot faster with headtaker than decimator too btw. Heavies for tac axes come out about as quick as aatrox combat axe lights, but slightly slower than the other combat axes. mk2 has a great heavy combo and good light combo, but attacks slower than the mk7, so I just use the mk7 if I want to crit build the zealot. I used to use the mk2 on my vet, but prefer the rashad combat axe now because I can just left click all day unless a mauler or crusher comes over. The rashad has wide swings on the lights and the bonus weakspot dmg mod allows me to 1shot on the first hit rather than on the second.

And on the decimator not being horrible on a tac axe, well, except for extremely rare cases, it mostly is. Like you said shred is a decent pick on it that behaves similarly, but its advantage is that it starts stacking right away instead of on the third hit, so it still wins out there. I have shred and headtaker on my mk7 for zealot, and brutal momentum w/headtaker on the mk2 for my vet, and they 1shot without decimator just fine, and without needing bonus dmg feats. The only time decimator would make a difference is when there are is an absolute train of crushers making an entrance, but that happens in like 1 out of every 25 runs, so it's not something to build for.

I honestly don't think it stacks on the third since most of the time it stacks on the second. You did make a compelling argument, I'll give you that and most of my experience usually ranges on the MK7 so I can't really contest at all about the other. Honestly, I do run Headtaker on Tac Axe because chaining up to 10 times is more trouble for what it's worth than compared to Combat Axes and other Vets I met in Hi-Shock 5 seem to do surprisingly well for themselves with just running BM and Deci for the usual melee hordes without needing to headshot since they opted to the body 1-hit over the weakspot 1-hit. After trying it myself multiple times, I can see why. Although I stopped using Tac Axe on my Veteran, just Antax with Deci since it provides what I wanted.

As for my Zealot w/ the Tac Axe, I don't run Headtaker just Deci since I stack it much faster and the difference is literally night and day and I just kill things much in a tight situation than running Headtaker. I exclusively almost never use it on Low-Intensity Map or non/bad Modifier Maps with bad Horde Density, which imo is where Deci on Tac Axes really suffers and Headtaker does shine.

[Germaine's Bra]

Honestly any good blessings stats gun can work.

[Triggerhappy]

Ishan451 a écrit :

Triggerhappy a écrit :

And I don't know why you'd complain about an easy 1-1.5 per sec elite delete.

Because the MK 1 OHK's pretty much all meaningful elites and most specials (with exception of Mutant) with a single Weakspot hit. It's charge time also nicely aligns with Surgical Strike... meaning by the time its fully charged you will have 4-5 stacks of +4/+5% Crit chance.

That is why the MK3 is a bad pick. It doesn't really provide more utility over the MK1, but the MK1 is faster in doing the same job. (And i would have to check but i believe it also costs fewer charges of your Mag to do so)

It does, in ult, and you can make an argument for that. The mk3 can ohk without ult where in some cases the mk1 can't. If the argument lies mostly within ohk on weakspot during ult, then kantrael is actually the winner. I think mk1 and mk3 are both good though. Biggest mk1 advantage is much better efficiency though in most situations. ttk for ogryn baddies is worse on mk1, but it's not the biggest dealbreaker. And if you're talking about surgical strike, the extra charge time for the mk3 synergizes a bit better there, but honestly I don't really find that the crits even out the time you waste if you choose to wait for 5 stacks for every shot. You'll likely get more dps using the cooldown blessing instead.