Ratling Sniper Class Ideas 2.0

[KayO]

I've seen lots of players talking about wanting Ratling Snipers in the game. I'm no different. After they add some subclasses to the existing classes, FatShark should really focus on adding entirely new classes to the game, starting with the Ratlings. Here is my new and improved list of requests for the Ratling Snipers. Feel free to make your own opinions and ideas known.

(Note: Exact numbers are not listed so you can imagine a good, balanced number.)

Coherency Bonus
Call out Weakness: The Ratling and all allies in coherency have increased weakspot damage.

Passives
Crackshot: Ranged headshots refund one ammo and will shorten the cooldown of the Ratling's Class ability.
Natural Thief: Ratlings can see all lootable items (crafting materials, health/ammo boxs, ammo, Scrips/grims, ect) through walls and boxes.
Escape Artist: Can free themselves from Trapper nets and plague hounds once every few minutes.

Class Grenade
Smoke Grenade: Similar to Ranger Bardin's ultimate in Vermintide 2. The Ratling will drop a smoke grenade at their feet. As long as the Ratling remains in the smoke, enemies will be unable to attack or shoot at the Ratling. Holds 2 by default.

Class Ability
Kill Shot: The Ratling's next shot will do massively increased damage, ignore all armor, and penetrate all enemies.

Unique Weapons
Scoped Rifles: Weather it's a longlaz or bolt action rifle, Rattling have unique access to a range of scoped rifles. Perfect for picking off key targets at the longest of ranges.

Level 5 Feats
In the Zone: Headshot kills recover toughness.
Great Escape: Using a Smoke Grenade will recover all your thoughness.
Overwatching: All ranged kills near an ally will recover toughness.

Level 10 Feats
Trick Shot: Headshots now refund 2 ammo.
Sniping Tax: When an ally in coherency picks up ammo, you also get 20% of the ammo.
What's Your's is Mine: All common shooter type enemies have a small chance of dropping ammo.

Level 15 Feats
Thick Smoke: Smoke Grenades will now hide allies as well.
Honor Among Thieves: Allies in Coherency will also be effected by your natural thief passive.
Long Ranged Support: Coherency effects retained over longer distances.

Level 20 Feats
Chain Smoker: You can now hold 3 smoke grenades.
Hip Shooter: Greatly improved hip-shot accuracy.
Quick Scope: Greatly improved ADS speed.

Level 25 Feats
Sixth Sense: You will receive a special audio and visual warning when a disabler is targeting you..
Reversal of Fortune: After using escape artist or a Smoke Grenade, you deal increased damage for a short duration.
Expert Scavenger: Natural Thief passive works at further distances.

Level 30 Feats
Double Tap: Kill Shot now has 2 shots.
Keep em' Coming: If you kill a special/elite enemy with a killshot headshot, you can shoot again (Limit of 5 shots)
Assassinate: Kill Shot now does even more damage.

Personalities
The Pickpocket- A cute, charming, and mischievous type. Has a childish sounding voice and speaks with a working class London accent, like a sci-fi Artful Dodger.
The Crackshot- A confident sharpshooter. Quite the braggart, but also very friendly to his squadmates. Has a somewhat cartoony voice and speaks with an American accent that has a slight southern drawl.
The Milksop- The cowardly lion type. The most nervous and frightful of the different rejects, but still willing to see the mission to completion. Has a high pitched voice, tends to stutter, and speaks with a Welsh accent.

Squad Nicknames
To Veteran: Spotter
From Veteran: Marksman
To Zealot: Tenderfoot
From Zealot: Little One
To Ogryn: Big Boy
From Ogryn: Tiny
To Psyker: Twinkle Toes
From Psyker: Scamp
To Other Ratling: Kinsman

[Ultimate Grungo]

Love the details you've got here, down to the different personalities and such! I've been working on a concept for a Ratling Trailblazer class for funsies, and it's neat to see it shares a lot in common with this -- namely smoke grenades, luck themed feats, some ammo nabbing abilities, and a passive that highlights collectibles in a certain radius.

The class ability reminds me a lot of Bounty Hunter's from VT2, which is a good thing, 'cuz the latter is very satisfying to use. And overall, what you've brewed up seems pretty fun, and I think it has a good amount of skill expression, what with weak point hits replenishing ammo and reducing ability cooldown. There's plenty of good ratling theming to the whole thing ("Chain Smoker" made me chuckle).

To offer some constructive feedback: The base smoke grenades might need to hide allies as well to be less "selfish," if that makes sense. The three grenades that exist at the moment can have a significant impact on a fight, not just for the user, but for the whole team. That makes them versatile, not to mention welcomed when another teammate uses one/picks one up. A zealot grenade can save a swarmed teammate, a veteran grenade can stagger big enemies, and an ogryn grenade can deal with high-priority targets quickly. A ratling grenade might be able to protect a far-off teammate who's out of position or dealing with a stationary objective, and that's way handier than just hiding oneself to take some free shots. Of course, if the cloud were to hide all teammates inside, might make it tempting to toss one on the ground and cozy up to de-aggro the whole horde, which would grind the pace of a fight to a halt. Maybe the smoke would specifically block the sight of ranged enemies, but not affect melee enemies as much.

Also on grenades, I'm not sure if I understand the wording on "Refreshing Mist," but if it actually heals teammates like a medipack, it's probably too strong. If it only heals damage they've taken *while in that particular smoke cloud*, that would probably be more balanced, but it could have some funky interactions too. It might be simpler to have it grant toughness damage reduction instead.

Thanks for putting this out here though! I'm thrilled to see more attention for ratlings. They're first on my Darktide wishlist for sure.

[Licher.Rus]

No

There is Sharpshooter already.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by KayO:

Feel free to make your own opinions and ideas known.

Well, you asked for it: I don't see the point in this. The Veteran pretty much covers the role of a Marksman, there is no way to give a Ratling a different yet appropriate "special" and as such its always going to be a worse Veteran. If you specialize it even harder on Ranged than the Vet, then it will suck so much harder in melee.

You can go melee with the Vet but nothing really synergizes with that playstyle and an even more specialized version of this, won't make sense.

Also what is their role on the team going to be? Just another Veteran to clear the blackline?

Originally posted by KayO:

Coherency Bonus
Call out Weakness: The Ratling and all allies in coherency have increased weakspot damage.

On top of the Zealot's and Veteran's damage increase? Way to overpowered.

Originally posted by KayO:

Passives
Crackshot: Ranged headshots refund ammo and will shorten the cooldown of the Ratling's Class ability.

Way to overpowered and the "refund ammo" would have to be less than the Veterans, due to the fact that you could just burst down a Horde for infinite ammo.

Originally posted by KayO:

Natural Thief: Ratlings can see all lootable items (crafting materials, health/ammo boxs, ammo, Scrips/grims, ect) through walls and boxes.

Ratlings aren't hobbits and that would be way to distracting.

Originally posted by KayO:

Escape Artist: Can free themselves from Trapper nets and plague hounds once every few minutes.

Ratlings aren't hobbits and that is way to overpowered. Yes, Ratlings are every bad trait known to man, but that doesn't make them Hobbits or better at it than anyone else.

Originally posted by KayO:

Class Grenade
Smoke Grenade: Similar to Ranger Bardin's ultimate in Vermintide 2. The Ratling will drop a smoke grenade at their feet. As long as the Ratling remains in the smoke, enemies will be unable to attack or shoot at the Ratling. Holds 2 by default

Subpar Cameo Talent and ammo dependent.

Originally posted by KayO:

Class Ability
Kill Shot: The Ratling's next shot will do massively increased damage, ignore all armor, and penetrate all enemies.

You forgot that it will "home" on targets heads and be useable every 2 seconds. Hello Kerillian.

And with Massive Damage, in light of the level 30 feat that should boost this, i assume you mean something comparable to a Brainbrust? So not only does this class encroach on the Veteran's Role on the team, but also on the Psykers?

Worse if the "massive damage" would be bigger than the Psykers brain brust.

Originally posted by KayO:

Unique Weapons
Scoped Rifles: Weather it's a longlaz or bolt action rifle, Rattling have unique access to a range of scoped rifles. Perfect for picking off key targets at the longest of ranges.

What is this needed for? There aren't distances in this game that need this. You can snipe across every room with a Kantrell Lasgun or Helbore from the other side of the room without any issue, even headshotting people behind cover.

You'd get even more tunnel vision on top of this.

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 5 Feats
In the Zone: Headshot kills recover toughness.
Great Escape: Using a Smoke Grenade will recover all your thoughness.
Overwatching: All ranged kills near an ally will recover toughness.

So a worse version of the Veteran's. Again, why would anyone want to play this over the Veteran?

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 10 Feats
Trick Shot: Headshots now refund 2 ammo.
Sniping Tax: When an ally in coherency picks up ammo, you also get 20% of the ammo.
What's Your's is Mine: All common shooter type enemies have a small chance of dropping ammo.

So even more infinite ammo options.

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 15 Feats
Noxious Cloud: Smoke Grenades now deal damage over time to enemies in the smoke.
Refreshing Mist: Allies in a Smoke Grenade will have all damaged taken recovered over time. They can still be downed however.
Chain Smoker: The rattling can now hold 3 smoke grenades.

So where everyone gets a Coherency Talent on level 15, the Ratling gets to choose between an overpowered heal grenade, more invulnerability grenades, which they gain more of with a Veteran on the team, or a pointless DOT grenade to drop at their feet?

So the goal here is to have a sniper that is admist the horde to make use of a new Damage type called Poison?

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 20 Feats
Small Target: Enemies are less likely to target you.
Bullet Dodge: Dodging ranged attacks will not effect dodge stamina.
Slippery Fish: Escape artist passive can be used more frequently.

So infinite dodge immunity against ranged attacks, trivalizing Disabler and Cameo Expert of the Veteran?

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 25 Feats
Sixth Sense: All disablers (Trapper, Pox Hound, Mutant) are highlighted for you at all times.
Reversal of Fortune: After using escape artist or a Smoke Grenade, you deal increased damage for a short duration.
Expert Scavenger: Natural Thief passive works at further distances.

Perpetual Volley Fire for Disablers? Even more distracting perpetual ESP Wallhack for loot or a damage bonus after being immune to either damage or disablers. Ever considered this all to be a bit overpowered?

Originally posted by KayO:

Level 30 Feats
Double Tap: Kill Shot now has 2 shots.
Keep em' Coming: If you kill a special/elite enemy with a killshot headshot, you can shoot again (Limit of 5 shots)
Assassinate: Kill Shot now does even more damage.

So in short how to make something OP even more OP...

Honestly all of this either, depending on the values attributed to them, makes the whole thing either subpar to the Veteran, with no need for this Class or Superior to the Veteran, so nobody will ever play Veteran again.

Just based on the proposed Talents there is no obvious place where this Ratling fits on the team. Its an inherently self reliant class. All the "Perpetual" Volley Fire Talents for specific things would be an insane amount of screen clutter.

This proposal just makes it even more Clear that the Ratling cannot exist side by side with the Veteran. There is no point in having both.

Originally posted by KayO:

Personalities
The Pickpocket- A cute, charming, and mischievous type. Has a childish sounding voice and speaks with a working class London accent, like a sci-fi Artful Dodger.

Have you seen what Ratlings look like? They are nicknamed Ratlings and Maggots for a reason.

Again, Ratlings ain't Hobbits.

Originally posted by KayO:

Squad Nicknames
To Veteran: Spotter
From Veteran: Marksman
To Zealot: Tenderfoot
From Zealot: Little One
To Ogryn: Big Boy
From Ogryn: Tiny
To Psyker: Twinkle Toes
From Psyker: Scamp
To Other Ratling: Kinsman

Ratlings ain't hobbits. And the Veteran shouldn't really have a good opinion of them, depending on their background, beyond their skill with a Rifle. Again, they are called Ratlings for a reason. Not only for their looks, but also for their odious behavior in camp.

Yes, they are amazing Snipers (because they lack the ability and use for anything else due to their lack of strength and discipline), but they are also the source of everything foul back at base camp. If they are not busy engorging themselves and stealing peoples belongings and rations (in order to finance their incessant need for alcohol, drugs and food), they are leacherous, borderline offensive with their sexual advances. If they ain't eating they are "procreating".

Ratlings are called Ratlings for a reason. Its not just "oh the Imperium is Grimdark and people are just mean to little people". Its an inherent trait of the Ratling that they behave like rats.

To be bunked with a Ratling, for a Veteran, should be akin to be bunked next to a Contingent of Fire Skunks. Sure, you love their work on the battlefield, but you sure as hell don't want to sleep near them.

And i get that i am one of those that consider the number of insults hurled at us in the game to be an issue and not every "Warhammer 40k"... but that doesn't mean that Ogryns shouldn't be stupid or Ratlings shouldn't be ... well human version of rats.

[Harukage]

Ratlings are like wet noodles. Their only defense is to stay as far from combat as possible, and they are worse in melee than your generic tau. Do you really want to play THAT?
I would rather have something like skitarius instead.

[KayO]

I took the time to do a detailed breakdown of your post Ishan451. Here are my thoughts.

1. You ask: "Also what is their role on the team going to be? Just another Veteran to clear the blackline?"
Yes! Why is this a bad idea? Look at Vermintide. Vermintide, gave us several variations of the ranger class with things like Ranger Bardin, Huntsman Kruber, and Waystalker Karillian. This variety is a good thing.

2. You say that the Crackshot passive is: "Way to overpowered and the "refund ammo" would have to be less than the Veterans, due to the fact that you could just burst down a Horde for infinite ammo."
Were you some god tier lvl Huntsman player in Vermintide, because this is where the Crackshot passive comes from. It will only refund ONE shot, so if you want infinate ammo, you gotta stay on target, just like huntsman Kruber.

3. You say: "Ratlings aren't hobbits and that is way to overpowered. Yes, Ratlings are every bad trait known to man, but that doesn't make them Hobbits or better at it than anyone else."
What is your knowledge of 40K lore? From my understanding, ratlings are based more on Hobbits rather than Skaven like you are implying. That's why they have the same physical appearance as Hobbits, right down to the same big hairy feet.
There reason why i think this talent is important, is because as a sniper the ratling is more likely to be further away from the team. Having an occasional 'get out of jail free' card, will allow them to hang back a bit in certain situation to go for the perfect shot.

4. You say of the Natural Their passive: "Ratlings aren't hobbits and that would be way to distracting."
Once again, i think they are like a more edgy version of hobbits, and there are ways to make this unobtrusive, such as using very light highlights for items in range, or having an option to hide the perk during combat in the option menu.

5. Of your ultimate, you say: "And with Massive Damage, in light of the level 30 feat that should boost this, i assume you mean something comparable to a Brainbrust? So not only does this class encroach on the Veteran's Role on the team, but also on the Psykers?
Worse if the "massive damage" would be bigger than the Psykers brain brust."
Yes, it's true that this is ment for picking off key targets, just like a Brain Burst. Because it's an ultimate, this would even more powerful; useful for when you must get something dead now. This is offset by the fact that, as a skill shot, it would demand more skill of the player, making Kill Shot a great 'risk vs reward' move. Also, this does not 'encroach on the Vet and Psyker's role on the team'. This is giving players other option to deal with the same problem.

6. Of Scoped Rifles you say: "What is this needed for? There aren't distances in this game that need this. You can snipe across every room with a Kantrell Lasgun or Helbore from the other side of the room without any issue, even headshotting people behind cover.
You'd get even more tunnel vision on top of this."
Have you forgotten about the bridge fight, or shooting at targets in the atrium? There are many great sniping spots on different maps. Also I'm not saying that Scoped Rifles are the only the ratlings could use. I agree, Ratling should also have access to the Kentrell Lasguns as well.

7. Of lvl 5 Talents you say: "So a worse version of the Veteran's. Again, why would anyone want to play this over the Veteran?"
The idea is that the Ratling is a more 'extreme' version of the sharpshooter. They have the potential to deal even more damage at longer ranges, but they are more vulnerable in melee.

8. of lvl 10 talents you say: "So even more infinite ammo options."
The idea is, because the Ratling relies so heavy on his guns, he should have means of ammo conservation like the Sharpshooter. TrickShot allows you to miss a few headshot and still save ammo, like playing Huntsman Kruber with a ammo saver weapon. Sniping tax encourages you to save ammo for your teammates. And what's your is ours is meant to be a variation of the Sharpshooters current Aura ability.

9. Of the lvl 15 talents you say: "So where everyone gets a Coherency Talent on level 15, the Ratling gets to choose between an overpowered heal grenade, more invulnerability grenades, which they gain more of with a Veteran on the team, or a pointless DOT grenade to drop at their feet?
So the goal here is to have a sniper that is admist the horde to make use of a new Damage type called Poison?"
Okay, you were right about this one. I made some changes to the lvl 15 feats so they better reflect the trend of the tier 3 talents being coherency focused.

10. Of the lvl 20 talents you say: "So infinite dodge immunity against ranged attacks, trivalizing Disabler and Cameo Expert of the Veteran?"
You were right about this one too. I've made changes to the lvl 20 talents as well.

11. of the lvl 25 talents you say: "Perpetual Volley Fire for Disablers? Even more distracting perpetual ESP Wallhack for loot or a damage bonus after being immune to either damage or disablers. Ever considered this all to be a bit overpowered?"
You made some good points here as well. I changed the sixth seance perk to work more like the one from Deep Rock Galactic.

12. of the lvl 30 talents you say: "So in short how to make something OP even more OP...
Honestly all of this either, depending on the values attributed to them, makes the whole thing either subpar to the Veteran, with no need for this Class or Superior to the Veteran, so nobody will ever play Veteran again.
Just based on the proposed Talents there is no obvious place where this Ratling fits on the team. Its an inherently self reliant class. All the "Perpetual" Volley Fire Talents for specific things would be an insane amount of screen clutter.
This proposal just makes it even more Clear that the Ratling cannot exist side by side with the Veteran. There is no point in having both."
As i've said before, just because there are 2 classes that are similar, doesn't mean that one is bad. Like I stated in the starting post, exact values are not listed because i belive with the right testing and player feedback a good, balanced build can be found.

13. Of the personalities you say: "Have you seen what Ratlings look like? They are nicknamed Ratlings and Maggots for a reason."
I disagree; almost all the pictures, minifigures, and fanart i've seen make them look like Space Hobbits with guns. You must have REALLY high standards.

14. Lastly you say: "Ratlings ain't hobbits. And the Veteran shouldn't really have a good opinion of them, depending on their background, beyond their skill with a Rifle. Again, they are called Ratlings for a reason. Not only for their looks, but also for their odious behavior in camp."
What is it with you and Hobbits? Why can you not admit that GamesWorkshop clearly based the Ratlings off of things like hobbits and halflings? Ratlings have their own take on the quintessential 40K edginess, but they are still clearly based on hobbits.