Brittleness is weird

[Ethical Lune]

So I got Thunderous IV on my poop shovel and tested it out on Carapace armor, it provides no bonus damage on subsequent hits with heavy attacks with 685 both before and after full stacks, but light attacks go from 16 to 108 which is quite substantial.
My stubber does 50 with no stacks and 226 with full stacks, again quite a juicy bonus.

And then we have Flak where it goes from 143 at no stacks to 150 at full stacks with light melee swings and 222 to 252 with bullets, practically nothing compared to carapace for.. some.. reason? Probably something to do with the penetration values on the weapon but man that's really really weak.

Why does it only affect light attacks and bullets and why does it only truly affect carapace in any noticeable way? What kinda design is this :v

Does it literally just remove armor and therefore it does nothing at all for high armor penetration attacks? Why would I use this on a club or shovel which already deals amazing damage to armor?

[varicose 'vascular' vinny]

Yeah, it lowers their armor. But brittleness is team wide, and even a godly rolled club or shovel is 2-3 hits to kill a crusher, so spreading brittleness helps your team out. Especially with the preposterous amounts of crushers in patrols lately. Like I use rending shockwave on the trauma, which actually doesn't benefit the circle in any way, but applies brittleness for my melee and guns/teammates.

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

[Ethical Lune]

Originally posted by kidney geodes:

Yeah, it lowers their armor. But brittleness is team wide, and even a godly rolled club or shovel is 2-3 hits to kill a crusher, so spreading brittleness helps your team out. Especially with the preposterous amounts of crushers in patrols lately. Like I use rending shockwave on the trauma, which actually doesn't benefit the circle in any way, but applies brittleness for my melee and guns/teammates.

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

Sounds great for trauma staff and maybe some other weapons but why make it available for weapons that deal above 100% to armor?
Didn't realize it was team wide tho, that's good to know.

[AThousandD]

Carapace armour is going to see the highest benefit, as it's the hardest form of armour - and each stack of brittleness knocks the armour class down a notch. Flak doesn't have much to lose, carapace has more to lose with brittleness.

[varicose 'vascular' vinny]

Originally posted by Ethical Lune:

Originally posted by kidney geodes:

Yeah, it lowers their armor. But brittleness is team wide, and even a godly rolled club or shovel is 2-3 hits to kill a crusher, so spreading brittleness helps your team out. Especially with the preposterous amounts of crushers in patrols lately. Like I use rending shockwave on the trauma, which actually doesn't benefit the circle in any way, but applies brittleness for my melee and guns/teammates.

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

Sounds great for trauma staff and maybe some other weapons but why make it available for weapons that deal above 100% to armor?
Didn't realize it was team wide tho, that's good to know.

Trauma also does 100% damage to all armor types with the only attack you use. Brittleness shines best at burst killing bosses but I'm gonna throw out again its not wasted with how Fat Shark really dialed up the Ogryns lately. Splash a bunch of 5s armor debuffs and they are much less likely to body block your team to death.

[Slicer [OSL)]

Originally posted by kidney geodes:

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

If fatshark decides to put in now Carapace armor on dogs i will blame you so hard for that xD BTW cool explained thanks

[Ethical Lune]

Originally posted by Slicer:

Originally posted by kidney geodes:

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

If fatshark decides to put in now Carapace armor on dogs i will blame you so hard for that xD BTW cool explained thanks

New monstrosity boss incoming, giant hound with carapace armor.

[beN]

Originally posted by Ethical Lune:

Originally posted by kidney geodes:

Yeah, it lowers their armor. But brittleness is team wide, and even a godly rolled club or shovel is 2-3 hits to kill a crusher, so spreading brittleness helps your team out. Especially with the preposterous amounts of crushers in patrols lately. Like I use rending shockwave on the trauma, which actually doesn't benefit the circle in any way, but applies brittleness for my melee and guns/teammates.

If AP becomes more avaliable it would be worth less. I hope for more enemies wearing armor soon.

Sounds great for trauma staff and maybe some other weapons but why make it available for weapons that deal above 100% to armor?
Didn't realize it was team wide tho, that's good to know.

yeah, brittleness is team wide, rending is only for the wielder afaik.

[J.P.]

not sure it actually works right on many of the weapons I tried it on

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by AThousandD:

Carapace armour is going to see the highest benefit, as it's the hardest form of armour - and each stack of brittleness knocks the armour class down a notch. Flak doesn't have much to lose, carapace has more to lose with brittleness.

People keep using the term "armour class". What does that actually mean? The only thing I can think of is the old D&D term, but there armour made it harder to be hit. The game says 5%, so intuitively I would think that it would either induce damage vulnerability or reduce damage resistance (in either case, -resistance) but this makes me think there's more to the system.

[nakoda]

AC is just the holdover colloquial term for armor. AC literally just means "armor value" it's just benign lexicon.

[Wandering Soul]

The actual effect of Rending or Brittleness is to compare your weapon's damage difference between current enemy armor type and Unarmoured.
A complete 100% rending allows you to inflict the equivalent of Unarmoured type of damage on the target.
Therefore, including the most obvious Carapace Armour, everything else can benefit from it as long as your weapon deals less damage to it than Unarmoured.

[XIX Victorious Aut Mortis]

the AC you in Dark-tide are Unarmoured, Maniac, Infested Flak, Carapace, Monster and Unyielding. there can be a combination of these armour types on a Individual enemy, which brittleness may or may not effect, I think it currently only effects Carapace or Flak, and i'm pretty sure that Unarmoured, Maniac, Infested, Monster and Unyielding are unaffected by Brittleness, it lowers the level of armour protection by a Percentage to the stage ie 5 stacks=25% of i think Armour reduce the Damage dealt by 15-60% so 25% off 60% is 45% protection left, which also doesn't account for penetration value of the Attack.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by Wandering Soul:

The actual effect of Rending or Brittleness is to compare your weapon's damage difference between current enemy armor type and Unarmoured.

Are you certain about this? That would implied that Carapace "resists" damage in some fashion (absolute damage reduction, percentage damage reduction, etc.), and that Brittleness affects that. I thought the amount of damage a weapon deals to Flak and Carapace is instead simply baked into the weapon itself? That is to say, a Devil's Claw Sword doesn't deal 20% damage to Carapace, it just deals X amount of damage to it. This is what confuses me, because...

Originally posted by XIX Victorious Aut Mortis:

the AC you in Dark-tide are Unarmoured, Maniac, Infested Flak, Carapace, Monster and Unyielding.

Originally, I thought people meant that enough Rend could downgrade Carapace armour into Flak Armour or some such :)

[Triggerhappy]

This reddit post helps explain it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkTide/comments/107olbz/wtf_is_rending_brittleness_explanation/

Also this dev response to me in their forums after posting a bug report about certain weapons not affecting two armor types:

"Hi!

The armor modifier is not defines per enemy or per weapon. Its defined per attack. So every single attack in the game have their own unique armor modifier. To this. In melee swings Every enemy hit in a swing have their own armor modifier. So the first enemy hit have an armor modifier, the second hit can have a different armor modifier and so on.

That makes it quite hard to describe how brittleness will affect an weapon since the it all depends on the attack. Is it a light attack? heavy attack? Activated attack? etc.

When I look at hammers. I see that most attacks against the maniac armor type have an armor mod ~0.5 so those attacks would benefit from rending/brittleness. Activated attacks penetrated all armor (armor mod = 1) always so activated attacks would not benefit.

Bolters have a armor mod of 1 against maniac armor type so the bolter does not receive any benefit from rending/brittleness since the bolter already penetrated all the armor of a maniac armor.

So the key thing to get is that rending and brittleness affect the armor modifier and not the base damage. The base damage is the same but the armor mod that is applied is altered.

So for example. If you did 200 damage as base and you have an armor mod of 0.5. you would do 200*0.5=100 damage for that attack.

If you have 50% rending + brittleness That would reduce the armor mod by half. so if the armor mod is 0.5, 50% rending + brittleness would result in 0.5 + (1-0.5)50% = 0.5 + 0.25 = 0.75 in armor mod. The same attack would make 2000.75 = 150 damage.

But if we have an armor mod of 1 there is nothing that the rending + brittleness can do. We can reduce the armor mod above 1 since there is no more armor to strip. In the code it basically goes down to this: 1 + (1-1)50% = 1 + 050% = 1. The armor mot stays the same for the attacks that already penetrates all the armor.

Brittleness and Rending is the same thing just applied to different thing. Rending is a buff and Brittlness is a debuff. They “stack” in the way that I described in the post. They are added to each other. So if you have 40% rending and 20% brittleness the final “rending+brittleness modifier” is 60%

The benefit of brittleness/rending is down to 2 factors: The armor mods of the attack and the armor on the enemy. So brittleness/rending does not give a consistent bonus for all attack always. This is intentional. It boost the attacks that can’t penetrate armor well.

Hope this clear things up!
/Guen"

My reply is that brittleness and +rending still interact with each other and stack with each other instead of on top of each other.

Point still standing, brittleness and +rending are literally the same thing, and any damage gained by armor reduction is nullified if the weapon already has a hidden armor mod at "!".

[Triggerhappy]

Originally posted by AThousandD:

Carapace armour is going to see the highest benefit, as it's the hardest form of armour - and each stack of brittleness knocks the armour class down a notch. Flak doesn't have much to lose, carapace has more to lose with brittleness.

It doesn't change the armor class. The only thing in the game that does that is the zealot ult.