To the sharpshooter vets, thoughts on the Orestes chain axe?

[The Dess 2023 GOTY Edition]

It's probably the only weapon I suck at using. It is too slow to kill pox walkers, I can also swear it doesn't stagger enemies when you hit them and takes a lot to bring down crushers or bulwarks.

I probably have a skill issue here so I wanted to ask if any other sharpshooter pros can offer advice.

Note I also used to abhor the chainsword for the sharpshooter but have since warmed to it. The Orestes chain axe continues to leave a bad taste when ever I play with it.

So yeah, anyone got any tips and or opinions to share about this one?

[EastCLiff]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Takes to long to equip, doesn't one hit kill Poxwalkers and it isn't your job to kill specials in melee, or clear waves in melee (seriously, if you do that, play Zealot or Ogryn)... so long story short: Don't use it on veteran.

I'd much rather have people bring the Power Sword than a Chain Axe... and i really wish people would stop using the Power Sword.

LMAO
killing walkers or taking down something with melee is also his job. More precisely, it depends on how you mix up melee-range and role assignment. It is not dependent on classes and Vet can use the axe if he needs it's role.

I didn't used chain axe much enough. But you could find that chain sword and reconlas/headhunter can be a possible good mix up. Guns for focusing on common/elite gunners and chain sword for specials vulnerable to melee, mutty, flamers, dog, trapper. Chain sword is better than power sword against them. Try to learn details. I usually have no interest in CA but I think it can be used for similar purposes. Playstyle of killing specials with melee give you better ammo economy and it is very important for Vet.

[Arani]

I can by no means claim to be an expert with the chain axe. I've only ever given it a few tries. But it's more unwieldy and weaker than a Combat Axe V, and randomly stucks on someone leaving you open to being attacked. Considering that activating the shred takes its own extra time, it doesn't even kill armored targets any faster than a Combat Axe either. But all of that is a moot point as long as Power Sword is as strong as it is, especially with Power Cycler.

If you're looking for being an optimal vet, you can go with a number of ranged weapons from Kantrael XII to Bolter to HH to quite a few other slightly weaker but still good options. But a Power Sword is BiS (best-in-slot) for a melee weapon. And if you're looking to just have fun, then you can use anything you want anyway. Knife, Chain Axe, Combat Axe, Tac Axe, Devil's Claw, anything.

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

The Power Sword isn't "OP" in the traditional sense, as it would be perfectly fine on the Zealot. It's "OP" in that it negates what is supposed to be the Veteran's inherent weakness in melee.

And using the Power Sword isn't the best option for the Veteran. As i pointed out earlier in the thread, when we do not measure "melee Veteran" fighting hordes of trash mobs, then there are better weapons to use... like Combat and Tactical Axes, which win out due to their better Dodge values, faster equip times, larger push distances and quicker action time due to the lack of a need to spend 2 seconds powering it every 2nd swing (you can extend that with the Power Cycler blessing, but having that is far from guaranteed and even with the Power Cycling Blessing, you are still better off with axes, if the purpose is just dispatching the few enemies coming your way).

If you want to play Melee, then play Zealot or Ogryn, both of these classes have better syngergy with melee. And if your melee weapon is just meant to dispatch the occassional poxwalker shambling up from behind, then you are better off with a Combat Axe... even a Shovel will do a better job, although its poor against Crushers, it will actually "stunlock" them until some teammates can take over to allow you time to back away.

I get it, you don't want the Power Sword to get hit with the nerf-bat again.

Just say that, and make your case from there, because nobody who's spent more than a couple of hours with Darktide is going to buy into the idea that the Power Sword is somehow 'not' among the top 3 melee weapons in the game - or that the shovel (???) is somehow a better option in 'certain circumstances.'

The Power Sword could be given to the Zealot, and most Zealots would use the Power Sword over 'any' of the class's other melee weapons. It's just that good.

Let's be real - the Veteran should 'not' have access to the power sword. It should be moved to the Zealot.

[EastCLiff]

If you want to use CA properly, check various stats and think about what you want to do with it. I told about CS as an example, for killing specials with melee. Reconlas/headhunters before recent patch had bad maniac damage but chain sword was good for them with high maniac piercing and forcing stagger with active. So both combination works good, ranged/flak with guns and maniac/unyield/carapace... with melee.

Let's start with evaluating CA. It is bad for evasion but slightly good for pushing, running and blocking(+4 stamina). Bad at maniac(H attack) damage, but has good L attack, active is good enough like CS. So you lose power a little against m-rager but it is still fine if you are skilled enough. It has sawing(better damage) in light attacks and usually better AP against carapace than CS. Active attacks are seemed to be better than CS against maniacs with mine, 500x2 and 1500 on the back of mutty. Looks like dps on crusher is similar to tactical axes with L attack spam. Tradeoff between evasion and better damage output +@(running efficiency) from CS.

As a summary, CA is better than CS on killing armored ones from ambush at the back. It gives you more intuitive solutions against armored elites filtered after your team.

Let me see blessings. Some of them are shared with CS too. But CA has thunderous, brittleness (bonus AP for all teammates) on hit. It is very good for hunting crusher or monstrosity with your team. You can use bleed for unyielding too as CS did. It has also headtaker and other damage blessings. Looks good at grinding "damage on single target" build.

It would be slightly worse at making defense(side stepping and slashing walkers) on the front but You can kill high threats more faster and easier if you know how to hit them properly. I guess camoflage feat can be fun to backstab elites deep inside your team. Guns which can be used on killing many walkers on emergency, autoguns/reconlas, could be good too as CS did. CS is better at various purposes but you can focus on elite kills in melee.

[EastCLiff]

You can pick kantrael 1 or 4 either if you seek maniac damage. Worse than Mk12 but they have more ammo and it means you can make better at suppression, ammo economy, killing walkers with reserved buillets. You would be focused on using CA against tough enemies so you can pick versatile guns than Mk12.

People usually say that people must use only top tier weapon but there can be many possible, fun and competitive build if you correctly catch details. Total performance could not be better than S-tier build but other builds have their own benefit for some task and they works better for it.

[4tee]

still bad, maybe its good with bloodthirsty, but have to wait for next patch to test out

[EastCLiff]

Originally posted by Judge Lazar:

Chain weapons make no sense to me. Yes, give me a weapon that locks me into an animation with no guarantee of a kill when I can use the melee weapon that literally cuts through anything instantly.

You are tied in animation but the target is also forcefully stuck with it. It is very decent benefit because it gives the team chance to kill elites easier. It is strong counter against specials with short ranges and ragers.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

I get it, you don't want the Power Sword to get hit with the nerf-bat again.

I would prefer it being removed, so i don't have to deal with gimped Veterans going "i am a discount Zealot" on Heresy and Damnation.

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Just say that, and make your case from there

I made my case, with numbers, in this very thread as to why you should not be using the Power Sword as a Veteran.

When i see the opening and i see your Vet walk in with a Power Sword, i already assume that i cannot expect you to do your job as a Veteran in our game, and that i need to hang back and do your job for you... because you are likely running into hordes and Power Swording, instead of hunting down Bombers and other specials, as it would be your job on the team.

The mere fact that you show up with a Power Sword in Tier 4 tells me a lot about what i can expect from you. Its like a Zealot wielding a Chain Axe or an Ogryn with a Heavy Stubber.

Now, hashtag not all and all that... but 99,9% very much fulfill my expectations of them being a burden to the team and someone else needing to help them.

If i then in addition to the Power Sword see you pull out a Bolter or a Plasma Gun, i am dead sure, that you are trash and will most likely take on the role YOU should have been doing in the first place... which would be shooting gunners and shooters on the galleries, so they don't take apart the front line. Effectively your poor choice in the equipment screen will lead to two members of the team being inefficient at their job. Because i will stand there, and have to snipe shooters without the aid of Volley Fire Highlights and you will be busy wasting your time in melee with your glow stick or fire a shot every 30 seconds... if that much.

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

because nobody who's spent more than a couple of hours with Darktide is going to buy into the idea that the Power Sword is somehow 'not' among the top 3 melee weapons in the game - or that the shovel (???) is somehow a better option in 'certain circumstances.'

For your job as Veteran, it is.. because you are not supposed to be in melee. It is why you get a Cameo Talent and an ability that highlights Elites and Specials.

All you need your Melee weapon for is quickly dispatch the 2-3 Groaners or Walkers coming your way, and then you are back at dealing with Bombers, Flamers, Trappers, Dogs, Mutants, Shooters, Gunners, Shotgunners.. and the like, so your Teammates can focus on their jobs. For the Psyker that would be Unyielding enemies and the occasional hard to reach or elusive special.... for the Ogryn and Zealot that would being in the Horde and murdering said horde.

This means your Melee weapon needs to do 3 things: Be quick to pull, have a good dodge value to clear yourself from enemies and ideally one hit kill a Poxwalker. The Power Sword does neither of the first two. And that is why i know, when i see you show up with a Power Sword in Heresy and Damnation, that you are likely not going to do your job on the Team.

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

The Power Sword could be given to the Zealot

If anything then it should go to the Psyker, and it should be an alternative Force Weapon for them.

The Zealot doesn't need the Power Sword (they got better options) and the Psyker could actually need a force melee weapon that isn't just single target.

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Let's be real - the Veteran should 'not' have access to the power sword.

I fully agree. It breeds bad habits among Veteran players. What i don't agree with is moving it to the Zealot. Either move it to the Psyker or remove it entirely.

[Arani]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

And using the Power Sword isn't the best option for the Veteran. As i pointed out earlier in the thread, when we do not measure "melee Veteran" fighting hordes of trash mobs, then there are better weapons to use... like Combat and Tactical Axes, which win out due to their better Dodge values, faster equip times, larger push distances and quicker action time due to the lack of a need to spend 2 seconds powering it every 2nd swing (you can extend that with the Power Cycler blessing, but having that is far from guaranteed and even with the Power Cycling Blessing, you are still better off with axes, if the purpose is just dispatching the few enemies coming your way).

If you want to play Melee, then play Zealot or Ogryn, both of these classes have better syngergy with melee. And if your melee weapon is just meant to dispatch the occassional poxwalker shambling up from behind, then you are better off with a Combat Axe... even a Shovel will do a better job, although its poor against Crushers, it will actually "stunlock" them until some teammates can take over to allow you time to back away.

I don't mean to be rude but I'm seriously so tired of making this same point over and over again. The Power Sword is absolutely broken, and there's tons of data points to support it, even if people are either too inexperienced to see it, or more than likely too biased and afraid of losing their advantage to admit it. After all, when has there ever been a justified nerf in the history of gaming that didn't have people crying about it because they couldn't even admit their crutch to themselves let alone anyone else.

Power Sword, especially with the Power Cycler blessing is the best horde clear melee weapon in the game. As a class archetype weapon its counterpart for a zealot - who also happens to be THE horde clear class of the game mind you - would be the Eviscerator:

• - The Eviscerator needs to be charged for every single attack.
  - It's slow which means you need to consistently dodge and reposition while using it.
  - Even with 80% damage and perks for +25 unarmored/flak, it's not strong enough to kill even most trash in a single hit. And its hits swat the enemies back and down, meaning clearing a horde will take quite a while as the enemies effectively take turns being up and being swatted down, or being down and getting up while you're hitting the others.
  - Its cleave is MUCH worse than the Power Sword's, so you hit fewer enemies at a time on top of all this.
  - Meanwhile its moveset is mediocre at best, requiring combining heavy + light / push attacks (which takes stamina) for AoE cleave, or light+heavy attack (or just special) for single target damage. Additionally, the contact point is typically far offset from your crosshair, depending on attack type, making headshotting tedious and very hard without a lot of experience.
  
  The evi is effectively a hybrid weapon of AoE control, AoE damage, and very high single target damage with shred (which also locks you into animation).
  
  
• - The Power Sword's charge lasts for ~3 attacks normally, and with Power Cycler blessing for around ~10-15 attacks.
  - It's fast, and it deals high stagger to medium sized targets, meaning you generally don't need to dodge at all, unless something is behind you.
  - Even with barely decent base stats and absolute trash for perks (mine has +65% dmg +15% sprint eff. / +25% flak perks, but high cleave stats), a single powered headshot is enough to kill all trash and some specials, and will stagger the rest. Unless you're dealing with a mutie / oggie, at most you can expect to do 2-3 headshot attacks and anything that is there will be dead. I can't even imagine a PS when we get rebless and I can transfer my Power Cycler to a high stat proper perks sword with high Slaughterer / Supercharge blessings.
  - It pretty much has the most insane base cleave in the game 10-12 iirc.
  - It also has *the* best moveset in the game, as its heavies have tremendous range and an extremely wide arc while being perfectly horizontally lined at your crosshair, letting you easily score those 10+ headshots per each swing. Its light swings are also diagonal up->down, and both meet at the crosshair also making those ideal for 1v1 headshots, while cleaving to kill/damag anything else in a wide area.
  
  The PS is *the* best horde clear weapon in the game. Nothing else comes even close. It makes all the various CC melees look like a joke in that it doesn't need CC, since it just flat out kills 90% of everything in an instant, and the rest a short moment after. The only thing it has trouble with is oggies, and even then it's quite decent while powered. Just takes several swings to bring one down.

So to summarize the above, the Evi is not only worse in all aspects save for single target damage, it also requires far more skill and effort to use, and consumes dodges and stamina as a part of its regular usage and moveset. Compared to the PS which is effectively just "power up, bring crosshair to head height, start spamming heavy swing", and conserve your stamina / dodges for when you actually need them.

But this isn't all of it. Remember that vets also have twice the base toughness of other classes. This means their ideal curios will spec them for more toughness, netting a total toughness of around 300, vs. a zealots ~100-125 (typical toughness with curios). On top of this, vets passively get 50% more toughness per melee kill - which is percentage based - than other classes. Which means that a Power Sword vet will not only be on a whole other level in horde/special clear than any other class in the game, but also regenerate an absolutely stupefying amount of toughness while they do so. In every practical sense - and this is something you are free to test out in the game like I have -, a vet that's meleeing against hordes has even more toughness vs. ranged than zealots with Faith Restored. And that's without having to rely on all the numerous other variables zealots have to get right to enable that feat in the first place.

People often say "a vet in melee is a slot wasted, they should be doing ranged". Well, that really depends on the circumstances. A vet is already THE most powerful ranged class in the game, by a massive margin. If there's one thing they don't need to worry about, it's ranged mobs of any kind. They also have the ability to constantly recharge +8 bleed stack nades only 2 of which basically kill almost everything in a large area in T5. With the Power Sword, they are also the strongest melee class in the game, barring some exceptions like quickly dealing with oggies (something the nades or their primary weapon - depending on the weapon - can handle more than well enough).

The class is beyond a doubt broken, and at the heart of that problem is the Power Sword. You should compare vets to psykers, the other definitive ranged class in the game. A psyker wants to avoid being in melee at all costs. It's a last resort, or something to do while cooling down peril. Barring some exceptions like using a Force Sword special to take down a flamer / crusher in your face. Meanwhile as a vet melee is not only something you don't need to avoid, it's something you don't WANT to. Because fact is on T5 hi-intensity for example, there are plenty of situations where being able to completely delete any number of hordes and specials on melee solo, with no risk to yourself, is far more valuable to the team and those psykers in the back than just standing still with camo and taking pot shots at the few remaining ranged behind enemy lines.

[Garudazeno]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Garudazeno:

Sadly powersword is still miles better than any other weapon

I disagree with that. The fact that you have to "reignite" the power sword after 1 to 2 swings, drops its utility considerably, and you are better off with an Heavy Axe, in a pinch even a Shovel or Tact Axe will be better.

All values from Damnation Psykhanium, against against an Infested Enemy (Poxwalker and hounds):

An 80% damage Power Sword will do, unpowered, about 78 damage on a light attack and 183 damage on a heavy attack. The Power Sword has at least 10% reduced dodge distance and a dodge limit of 4. And the weakest Push in the entire game. This sword has a Perk on it increasing damage against Poxwalkers by 8%, which i am not sure if the values when you inspect it will reflect that or not, going to assume it doesn't, if it does you have to reduce the above values by 8%).

(These values i unfortunately had to test myself because you can't use the readout for the Powered state of the Sword)
Charged (and i had to use the hound for this), the light damage is ~750 damage ~1050 damage on a heavy hit. (And getting a non weakspot hit was hard, on the hound). Weakspot hits were Heavy 1550ish and light with 1200ish.

(These Values are from the Readout on inspect again)
An Atrox Tactical Axe (thats the blue light axe) with 79% damage will do 82 damage on light attack and 165 on heavy attack. It has a Dodge Limit of 5 and increases the Dodge distance, not reduces it.

An Antax Combat Axe (that's the blue heavy axe) with 77% damage will do 224 damage on light attack and 291 damage on a heavy attack. It has a dodge limit of 5 and increases dodge distance.


So yes, if your goal is to murder Poxhounds, then it is clearly the superior choice... but if you use it just to clear a few stragglers and to clear space between you and the enemy, so you can continue doing your job and snipe specials (like that bomber that keeps carpet bombing your area), then the power sword is the worst choice.

It takes ages to equip and ignite, it lowers your dodge range... it has fewer dodges than either axe types... and the Antax will one hit kill poxwalkers on a weakspot hit with a light attack. The Antax is just a little faster than the Power Sword on the equip and it doesn't need charging to OHK a Poxwalker.

The Antax also will 2 hit kill a Pox Hound on weakspot hits. It has like 50 or so DPS less than an energized Power Sword when fighting a Poxhound, which makes no functional difference because its either way a 2 shot kill.

Where the Power Sword wins is with Unyielding enemies. Powersword DPS is about twice that of a Tactical Axe and about 25% more than an Antax with heavy attacks, when you try to melee a Reaper. (This is again tested by me.. with all crits and what have you)

Fighting a Crusher the Antax reliably hits the head Weakspot, unlike the Powersword... and the Powersword had about 250ish DPS for me, where the Antax had 350 DPS and the Tactical Axe had 125 DPS (honorary mention, and i didn't know this, prior, doing heavy attacks on the Tact Axe.. two of them hitting the crusher's head will stagger him to the point of stumbling. He won't fall down, but he stumbles... a feat that neither Power Sword nor Antax Combat axe manages.)

On the whole... the Antax is the superior weapon for the Veteran (and i suspect the Acklys might even be better, since a Vet shouldn't fight hordes)... and when it comes to dispatching a few poxwalkers shambling your way, so you can keep doing your job, the quick equip time on both axes and the fact that you don't need to charge the weapon up, results in both axes being quicker to dispatch the few enemies coming your way, and getting you that much quicker back to doing your job.

Unfortunately i don't have a shovel of above 69% damage, or i would have tested this, but the Shovel is absolutely unusable against Unyielding enemies, even though the 'special' will stagger Crusher on a single hit and stumble them on a 2nd one. I do suspect however, a sufficiently good shovel will OHK Poxwalker with a heavy attack.

All these values are without perks, as they were tested on profane weapons with exception of the powersword, which had a +8% damage bonus against Poxwalker and a +8% crit damage increase.

You are free to test these values in the psykhanium yourself.

Personally I feel those values don't translate to the feeling of the weapon. The Antax is a really good weapon but it only cleaves with blessings or with it's push attack, which also reduces its usability just like the alt attack with the powersword. The light powered attack also cleaves through a lot of enemies, which makes it very good at crowd control. Even unpowered it cleaves, but it doesn't kill as often.

The big plus with the powersword is that it staggers most enemies it hits, including last time I checked, the Bulwark and Crusher. Being able to easily solo those enemies because of that ability is amazing, and makes the power sword one of the most versatile weapons.

Many of the OHK's you describe also don't translate to higher difficulties, where being able to stagger a large amount of enemies and elites is more important than killing them outright.

Perhaps it's up to personal preference, but the power sword is definitely the more versatile of the two weapons. The Acklys I don't see any use for, it has no cleave and only attacks slightly faster, I just don't see the point in it.

[Bum Ghost]

it hits very few enemies but deals big damage. If I get an armored enemy, I just use grenades, power up the power sword, and use heavy attacks

cleave is a bigger draw for me than damage per hit in Darktide, because enemies will literally fall from the sky on top of you from all directions in piles

In VT axes were better because little guys get swatted down in one hit (rather than stunned and thrown about like 90% of pox walkers seem to be)

[BecauseRaisins]

It doesn't kill walkers in one hit, making it worse than the normal heavy axes, the chainsword has better cleave and similar damage on charged hit
I was hoping on hit effects(mainly armour shred) would be multiplied since it hits several times in one swing but it only seems to apply effects once making it a bit meh even with upgrades and i think it's just completely overshadowed by power/chain sword