Where are the Chaos space marines?

[Urza]

Vermintide 2 has the Chaos warriors why we have just corrupted ogres?

[Szarocht]

Because Chaos Space Marines against what are unestablished nobodies due to the lack of cohesive story is literal suicide.

You can't have any kind of Space Marine in this game without seriously watering them down. To put it plainly for simplistic terms in 40k, a single average Space Marine is worth 100 other average Troops in the Imperium. A direct quote from the official Codex.

So unless, and a huge IF Fatshark fixes the problems, and finally adds a cohesive story to explain why our Characters can take on insurmountable odds without contracting a single Nurgle-blessed pathogen, it's inconceivable that they can take on a Chaos Space Marine. The Chaos Ogryn's in this game are pretty much the equivalent of Chaos Warriors from Vermintide 2.

Let's not forget they said there will never be Space Marines of any kind in this game.

To top it off, WH: Fantasy - the setting which Vermintide's 1 and 2 are set in - is separate from WH: 40,000. They are two very different universes and GW have been making strides to make that apparent. Chaos Warriors are not near the ridiculous levels of Overpowered that (Chaos) Space Marines are capable of.

[AzZotik]

To add to above, Chaos Marines compared to Chaos Warriors are like Grail Knights vs average lowborn knights. One has decades of experience, another just happens to own really good armor and used that to beat the crap out of a dozen similar guys and at best lived like 70-100 years, while Chaos Marines can date back to Horus Heresy, especially Nurgle because you know, Nurgle is notorious for lack of pain and ridiculous resistance to everything including death.

[Kanvi]

Space / Chaos Marines are the poster boys of the WH40k universe, but according to lore, a common soldier would never see them in person. Furthermore, these guys are so powerful they'd wipe your entire squad with a wet fart, you'd basically need to water them down and break the lore to give you an iota of fighting chance.

[Songbird]

In lore, 9 guardsmen and 1 commisar kill 4 chaos space marines and 1 chaos lord, without casualties.
In lore, 1 ogryn kills 2 chaos space marine terminators by breaking their necks, while heavily wounded.

People quoting "lore" in this thread make it up and never read any books/codice.

[Szarocht]

Originally posted by Songbird:

In lore, 9 guardsmen and 1 commisar kill 4 chaos space marines and 1 chaos lord, without casualties.
In lore, 1 ogryn kills 2 chaos space marine terminators by breaking their necks, while heavily wounded.

People quoting "lore" in this thread make it up and never read any books/codice.

No, I've very much gone very into depth with lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes. I can promise you they were never that clear cut.

Because in no case were they ever ordinary circumstances where Plot Armor is disassociated from the scenario, did the 'average joe' win.

Meanwhile a 9,000 year old Black Legion Chaos Marine slaughtered an Inquisitorial Retinue and a swathe of Guardsman among a couple of Space Marines.

And the fact Lucius the Eternal is virtually unbeatable and immortal, even to Necrons and Tyranids, and is so perfect in his fighting ability that he deliberately loses or weakens himself just so he can be entertained.

Or how Logan Grimnar butchered Grey Knights and elite Inquisitorial Forces.

Or how Hector Rex - an Inquisitor - defeated the greatest Bloodthirster ever (An'ggrath) in a duel on Vraks and banished him.

None of the Astra Militarum who have ever killed a Chaos Space Marine or a greater example were average joes. They all had accomplishments or were unique.

We can parse extraordinary examples all day to one another, but the fact remains as GW have remained firm on is that an average Space Marine would slaughter average joe's with little to no established accolades of their own without breaking a sweat - which is what the Characters in Darktide currently are. Nobodies.

[Viltae]

Let's hope we never meet them.
Plus, a Chaos Warrior is a simple man corrupted by some "dark magic", while a Chaos Space Marine is a one-ton immortal war machine with extra organs (3 hearts, 4 lungs, etc.) that reacts in nanoseconds. Their name is practically the same, but these characters have nothing in common.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

Originally posted by Songbird:

In lore, 9 guardsmen and 1 commisar kill 4 chaos space marines and 1 chaos lord, without casualties.
In lore, 1 ogryn kills 2 chaos space marine terminators by breaking their necks, while heavily wounded.

People quoting "lore" in this thread make it up and never read any books/codice.

No, I've very much gone very into depth lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes.

Because in no case were they ever ordinary circumstances where Plot Armor is disassociated from the scenario, did the 'average joe' win.

Meanwhile a 9,000 year old Black Legion Chaos Marine slaughtered an Inquisitorial Retinue and a swathe of Guardsman among a couple of Space Marines.

We can parse extraordinary examples all day to one another, but the fact remains as GW have remained firm on is that an average Space Marine would slaughter average joe's with little to no established accolades of their own without breaking a sweat - which is what the Characters in Darktide currently are. Nobodies.

Yes, 4 nobodies that go and face 1000s of enemies in a single mission including dozens of ogryns, a beast of nurgle and some chaos champion with a personal shield.

Plasma guns, force and energy weapons. Cutting throuh power armor like a knife through butter.

Ogryns, far superior than space marines in power armor in physical combat, easily picking them up and tossing them around like teddy bears.

One psyker alone would decimate squads of plague marines.

[Jun Gling]

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

Originally posted by Songbird:

In lore, 9 guardsmen and 1 commisar kill 4 chaos space marines and 1 chaos lord, without casualties.
In lore, 1 ogryn kills 2 chaos space marine terminators by breaking their necks, while heavily wounded.

People quoting "lore" in this thread make it up and never read any books/codice.

No, I've very much gone very into depth with lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes.

Bruh. Look up "First and Only" book. Few astra militarum guys and a comissar kill at least two (i think) CSM with only lasguns and a chainsword. In a firefight btw, not in an ambush or some ♥♥♥♥.

Can you guess who wrote it? You are in for a surprise.

[Buzzles]

Honestly, 40k is kinda better when Space Marines are kept out or the entire focus is on them. Not mix and matching.

The current set up for DT is a bit odd with our player characters being normal humans. I think they'd have been better served by making them ex-Karskins/Scions to explain why they're better than regular people, if not gone straight down the genetic experiment front. It would at least give reasoning why they can take on the hordes + BoN + PlagueOgs on the regular.

Throwing SM's into the mix as an enemy would make the game make even less sense in relation to the universe.

That said, lore wise, SM's are not these unkillable foes. They're strong, fast as hell, hardy, well trained and equipped, but they still get dropped by fairly normal troops if caught out.
Our plasma gun in game is underpowered compared to the lore version, which'd drop an SM with a direct hit for example.

[Twice]

They could have a recurring Nurgle Chaos Marine boss... But they would have to get over the hurdle of HOW IN THE HELL are we not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out of both ends before we even get close.

Psyker force-field requirement?

Anyway that's just the first hurdle, how do you justify that we can even fight it to begin with. Setup is all that's needed, have the Chaos Marine severely damaged by another fight with a .. something and you arrive just in time before it can regenerate, then it runs away since you cant beat it... Then you chase it down, then it runs away... etc.

Make it a REAL. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. PAIN IN THE ASS to deal with. Damnation balls to the wall hard IMPOSSIBLE without coordination.

I would still prefer if we didn't see them though. Kinda prefer the stuff outside of the Primarchs and their Marine chapters.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by Jun Gling:

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

No, I've very much gone very into depth with lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes.

Bruh. Look up "First and Only" book. Few astra militarum guys and a comissar kill at least two (i think) CSM with only lasguns and a chainsword. In a firefight btw, not in an ambush or some ♥♥♥♥.

Can you guess who wrote it? You are in for a surprise.

Yep, wait when he learns the commisar solod the chaos lord.

[Szarocht]

Originally posted by Songbird:

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

No, I've very much gone very into depth lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes.

Because in no case were they ever ordinary circumstances where Plot Armor is disassociated from the scenario, did the 'average joe' win.

Meanwhile a 9,000 year old Black Legion Chaos Marine slaughtered an Inquisitorial Retinue and a swathe of Guardsman among a couple of Space Marines.

We can parse extraordinary examples all day to one another, but the fact remains as GW have remained firm on is that an average Space Marine would slaughter average joe's with little to no established accolades of their own without breaking a sweat - which is what the Characters in Darktide currently are. Nobodies.

Yes, 4 nobodies that go and face 1000s of enemies in a single mission including dozens of ogryns, a beast of nurgle and some chaos champion with a personal shield.

Plasma guns, force and energy weapons. Cutting throuh power armor like a knife through butter.

Ogryns, far superior than space marines in power armor in physical combat, easily picking them up and tossing them around like teddy bears.

One psyker alone would decimate squads of plague marines.

I'm going to stop you there because this goes to show you know nothing but hyperbolic and hypotheticals to argue your points.

There is no story, we know nothing about the characters - In fact they should be dead from Nurgle Airborne Pathogens alone if this game was anything close to the lore. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Being even near a Beast of Nurgle reduces ordinary humans to rot-melted puddles. The Beast is a Mid-tier Daemon even by Lore Standards and this team of Rejects was not outfitted for such an encounter.

The Psyker in the squad is Epsilon at best because he has to focus to channel his powers. He's not the combat grade that can compete with a Chaos Marine. He is not a Primaris-qualified Psyker from the Militarum. This counters your hypothetical.

The Ogryn can be killed from ranged. This counters your hypothetical.

The Veteran has a Plasma Gun? If he can land the shot, because Chaos Marines react in nanoseconds. Power Sword? If he can move fast enough, or isn't picked off from afar. Again, counters the hypothetical.

Ministorum Priest? If they aren't wielding an Eviscerator and don't get incredibly lucky, they're not chewing through that Ceramite and very possibly Chaos Blessed armament. If it's a Plague Marine they're pretty much dead the instant they attempt to bury the weapon in their gut.

Originally posted by Jun Gling:

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

No, I've very much gone very into depth with lore before. But you should also cite the circumstances that made these things possible in the books, cite what the books/literature was, and how exactly they managed to overcome those foes.

Bruh. Look up "First and Only" book. Few astra militarum guys and a comissar kill at least two (i think) CSM with only lasguns and a chainsword. In a firefight btw, not in an ambush or some ♥♥♥♥.

Can you guess who wrote it? You are in for a surprise.

I've read it, and the Tanith First and Only are not ordinary by circumstance at all. This literally proves my point. You cannot take a unique event and quantify it as a global average to all other Astra Militarum and say they can all do that - it just doesn't work like that. Because if they could, the threat of Chaos and their Champions would be null, no where near as great as it is in 40k.

Dan Abnett did not write the story to this game (hint: they REMOVED HIS NAME from the package for this reason) - he was here to fact check and help build the world. That is all. There is no story beyond Tertium's a Hive City on the brink of ♥♥♥♥-town and our Rejects are surviving. You can't account for Gameplay in place of actual lore when Fatshark promised there would be a story for them - but there isn't! As it is right now, they're nobodies who would realistically be deader than dead!

[luZk]

A guardsman can serve a whole life without ever seeing a single loyalist space marine.

Meeting a chaos space marine is like winning a reverse lottery, most of them are camping the worlds on the edge of eye of terror.

And even if a few guardsmen and a commissar killed a group of chaos space marines that is more the exception to the rule hence why it's in a book.

There simply is'nt that many books about of group of guardsmen who is stationed on some lonely outpost where nothing happens for 20 years, because it's not a great story.

[Jun Gling]

Originally posted by KamaKamaKameleon:

I've read it, and the Tanith First and Only are not ordinary by circumstance at all. This literally proves my point.

Dan Abnett did not write the story to this game - he was here to fact check and help build the world. That is all.

One of the CSMs there was killed by vitrian dragoons, are they "special" too? Is any regiment featured in wh40k literature becomes special? Also, our PC are at least as capable as average solider from Tanith First, if not stronger.

But that aside, you are arguing nonsence. Truth is that SM or CSM as cool and tough as the writer wants them to be. In one book a single CSM can kill ten gazillion soliders, in other he is dead by five long-las shots in the chest.
And guess what, this game has a writer that prefers to do the latter, so the answer to OP's question is "Devs did not implemented them because they lack resources, but it is completely plausable".

Also, don't pretend you have insight in a developing process and stuff that was never made public. Your assumptions about what Den Abnett did for the story are, well, you assumptions.

[Hieronymous]

Any true 40k fan knows that the number of space marines is inversely proportional to the quality of the story.

That said, the fact that a 10 000 year old nurgly space marine is worth 100 soldiers does not mean that one lucky reject with a plasma gun can't take him down. I would hate to see them, but it's not totally unreasonable to have them in game.