Having a chaos space marine boss fight isn't exactly off the table imo

[PwnyHipster]

If we can fight a Beast of Nurgle, plague ogryn (regular ogryns are bigger and stronger than regular space marines, they're just slower, less skilled, have way worse aim, and have way worse equipment, and training. Ogryns are even stronger and tougher than Primaris Space Marines.), and a karkin' DAEMONHOST!

I'd say its realistic that we can take on a single chaos space marine. The hardest part would be getting through the power armor with weapons that aren't a Bolter, Plasmagun, Flamer, Power Weapon, Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon, and Psychic powers.

Edit: Here is a lore description of an Ogryn Bodyguard killing 2 Chaos Space Marines in Terminator Armor single handedly.

"Clattering gunfire erupted from weaponry as the figures stamped heavily through the rubble. They were huge individuals, their armour plate thick and nigh on impervious to harm: Terminators, the enemy’s elite.

Havorn banged on the top of the Chimera.

Havorn’s ogryn bodyguard emerged from the confines of the Chimera and breathed deeply, its eyes narrowing. It stepped protectively in front of the brigadier-general, shielding him from fire with its muscled bulk.

“Go!” he shouted. “Intercept them!'

With that, the Elysian commander pointed the way and the ogryn began loping towards the enemy

The ogryn raised its heavy ripper gun, a thick finger pulling the trigger. Empty shells scattered in its wake. It did not roar or bellow as it charged. Such base, animalistic behaviours had been erased from its simple brainpan, but no amount of augmetics could improve the aim of the ogryn and the bullets from its ripper gun sprayed the area, hitting nothing.

Bolter fire raked towards him, striking the hulking abhuman, who grimaced in pain. Chunks of flesh were torn from its arms and chest, but the three metre creature that dwarfed even the Terminators did not slow. It lowered a shoulder and smashed into one of the enemy, knocking it from its feet. Raising the butt of its heavy ripper gun, the ogryn began caving in the helmet of the fallen warrior, smashing it down onto the prone traitor again and again.



The ogryn roared as it planted its heavy feet and empty shells streamed from its ripper gun as it fired the weapon wildly. The Chimera behind them rotated its turret and multi-laser fire peppered the traitors, cutting several of them down. Only six Chaos Marines reached the brigadier-general’s command group, but it was enough.

This was the end, he thought. An ignominious end to his thirty-seven years within the Imperial Guard, hacked apart by brutal warriors behind his battle lines.

He saw the loyal ogryn fall to the ground with a bestial roar. He wasn’t a sentimental man by any stretch, but he felt pain as his faithful bodyguard fell to the ground, coughing blood from his lungs.

Havorn fired his pistol again and again, and felt the rising pain beneath his hand as the pistol overheated, venting super-heated air. With a snarl, he hurled it to the ground and drew his long bladed combat knife. It had been more than twenty years since it had tasted blood, back in the days when he was a captain of the storm troopers.

Only two of the enemy remained standing and they stalked towards him, wordlessly stepping away from each other to take him from both sides.

Havorn kept his eyes on the foe so as not to attract their attention to the massive form of the ogryn picking itself up behind them, blood running from the wounds on its arms and chest, and spilling from its mouth.

With a roar, the ogryn picked up one of the traitors, one massive hand upon the enemy’s backpack and the other between his legs. It lifted the Chaos Marine high into the air and slammed it head first into the ground, cracking its neck.

The second traitor turned with a snarl and swung its icon two handed into the ogryn’s legs, driving it to its knees. Releasing his grip on the haft of the hateful symbol of Chaos, the Chaos Marine leapt at the ogryn, its long talons extended for the killing blow.

Havorn cried out and surged forwards, but he was too slow and he saw the bodyguard fall, its throat ripped completely out, blood spurting from the fatal wound.

He drove his combat knife through a crack in the traitor’s ceramite back plate, the blade sinking deep. Blood spurted from the wound, burning through Havorn’s leather glove, and the enemy spun, his fist smashing into the brigadier-general’s cheek, shattering the bone.

Pain exploded in his head and he fell back from the force of the blow. He saw the ogryn’s large, mournful eyes as it tried desperately to aid its master before the Chaos Marine reached down and broke its neck with a brutal twist."

[Theta]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by Arkady:

A daemonhost usually is a wild psyker with a lesser daemon taking control over his body, even a fcking nurglin can be a daemonhost.

Completely incorrect. A Daemonhost isn't a randomly possessed psyker, it's a daemon carefully bound into a human subject by careful, intentional rituals. And only the most utterly daft of sorcerers would pick a Nurgling, because a Daemonhost is inevitably weaker than the Daemon itself.

Originally posted by Hermann|♠|:

If there was a Death Guard Warband on the Planet we would see Loyalist Chapters queuing up in Orbit to root them out. WE DON'T!

A Daemonhost is just that a Daemon bound to a mortal Host to possibly manifest said Daemon to the mortal plane. Could be a Plaguebearer could be a Unclean One or it could just be a Nurgling. Does not really matter the Daemon host is not nearly as dangerous as a CSM. If said Daemon would however manifest you would have a point.

All in all i see more and more of these arguments come up over the last decade as games have taken more and more considerable liberties with the Lore of this IP and while some of them were ok to do for a Videogame to happen they overall seemed to have bread this mentality of "ANYTHING GOES". Sure just let us kill CSM as if they are just another enemy. Why not have us kill Primarchs in the next game. Or become the Emperor ourselves in the next game after that.

...

Loyalist chapters still take time to arrive. We're in the early stages of the Atoma infestation, they can't just snap their fingers and be like "BAM WE HERE NOW!"

Furthermore, Daemonhosts at their strongest are so much more powerful than all but the most absurdly powerful CSMs that it's not even funny. Cherubael, a Daemon Prince turned Daemonhost, bent over a Warlord-class Chaos Titan. Show me your bog-standard marine managing that one solo.

Nope. In Hermans strange 40k universe, all CSM are impervious to damage from anyone but loyalist chapters. And these strange cults only bind and summon the weakest daemons and plague beasts.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Hermann|♠|:

Originally posted by Daliena:

Completely incorrect. A Daemonhost isn't a randomly possessed psyker, it's a daemon carefully bound into a human subject by careful, intentional rituals. And only the most utterly daft of sorcerers would pick a Nurgling, because a Daemonhost is inevitably weaker than the Daemon itself.





Loyalist chapters still take time to arrive. We're in the early stages of the Atoma infestation, they can't just snap their fingers and be like "BAM WE HERE NOW!"

Furthermore, Daemonhosts at their strongest are so much more powerful than all but the most absurdly powerful CSMs that it's not even funny. Cherubael, a Daemon Prince turned Daemonhost, bent over a Warlord-class Chaos Titan. Show me your bog-standard marine managing that one solo.

And if the Daemonhosts ingame were such a Daemonhost you might have a point but they obviously aren't cuz we can defeat them and if they were Tertius and the entire world would be lost so you point is moot.

You're just being intentionally obtuse, aren't you? My point is that Daemonhosts run a spectrum of power. They aren't just random freaking Nurglings, even if they obviously aren't Cherubael-tier either. They could very well be perfectly capable of fighting a CSM, no matter how much you screech that CSMs are invulnerable to anything (and everything all at once) in this entire game.

They're not. Not in the games, not in the lore.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Okay, so, I got a friend to check the books help me with the numbers, and...

In tabletop, you hit on a roll equal to or greater than your relevant skill. A Veteran Imperial Guardsman would have a BS of 4, meaning they hit on a 4, 5, or 6. So, they "hit" 50% of the time. That's a bit abstracted; if you're using a Recon Lasgun, AKA a BRRRZRT Dispenser, you can probably tag the target a few times by sweeping them, but that's not enough to qualify as a "hit" for these purposes, whereas with any single-shot weapon, it probably is just, well, "a hit."

So, on tabletop, you've got a 50% chance of your Flashlight hitting the PLEGG MEHRINE. So, what's next?

Well, a Lasgun - which would cover the Infantry and Recon lasguns, though not the Helbore lasgun - has Rapid Fire 1, so actually, they get two shots!

It has a 24", Rapid Fire 1, Strength 3, AP0, and D1.

Strength 3 compares to the PLEGG MEHRINE's Toughness 5 via a lookup table, and the end result is that the Guardsman with the Flashlight has to roll 5+ to actually inflict a Wound.
Note: The PLEGG MEHRINE has the MARK OF NURGLE... Which does absolutely nothing for him when being shot by a Lasgun, because it's not a high-Strength weapon.

So, having hit the PLEGG MEHRINE, the FLASHLIGHT VETERAN has a 33% chance to actually inflict a Wound upon him.

Now, having been hit, the PLEGG MEHRINE gets an Armor Save of 3+, meaning he has a 66.667% chance to say "Actually, nuh-uh!" after the FLASHLIGHT VETERAN has wounded him; or, to put it another way, that's another 33% chance roll to wound.

So, the FLASHLIGHT VETERAN has a 5.445% chance to inflict one (1) Wound on the PLEGG MEHRINE, of which he has two. So, yes, he's gonna have a real bad day. In theory, though, he *can* kill that guy, because he gets *two* shots if the PLEGG MEHRINE is within 12" tabletop, and pretty much all Darktide engagements take place within what Tabletop would say is 12" or less.

But wait, there's more! Let's give FLASHLIGHT VETERAN a Helbore Lasgun (Hot-Shot) instead!

The main difference is that the Hot-Shot has AP-2, so instead of saving on 3+, the PLEGG MEHRINE only saves on 5+; it inverts that last number from 33% chance to wound to 66% chance. This doubles his effective chance to wound to 10.89% per-shot, of which, mind, he gets two.

Now let's give him a Plasma Gun.
24" range, Rapid Fire 1, Strength 7, AP-3, D1.

Same 50% chance to-hit. Strength is now greater than the PLEGG MEHRINE's Toughness, meaning it Wounds on 3+. AP-3 means the PLEGG MEHRINE's ceramite armor only saves him on a 6+.
Again, Mark of Nurgle does not help him since it requires the attack to have Strength of twice Toughness, which means it would need to be Strength 10+.

So anyway, we go down the line again. 50% chance to-hit, 66% chance to-wound, 83.33% chance to-wound. The PLASGUN VETERAN has a 27.5% chance to Wound on a single shot; and I remind you, he can choose to double-tap. The odds are long, but not so long, that a PLASGUN VETERAN will, at no risk to himself, double-tap that PLEGG MEHRINE dead in one shot.
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

The PlASGUN VETERAN may, if he so chooses, OVERLOAD his Plasmagun! This gives the Plasgun +1 Strength (which doesn't matter), but +1 Damage. At the risk of killing himself if he rolls a 1 to-hit, he can one-shot that PLEGG MEHRINE! That raises his chance of a kill to a flat 27.5%, and he gets, notionally, two such chances.

Now, let's give him the Meltagun instead.
Meltaguns have 12" range (again, all Darktide encounters are basically within this range), Assault 1, Strength 8, AP-3, and it deals Dd6 damage; meaning it rolls to determine how much damage it does. It also deals +2D (which, bear in mind, is a variable here) if the target is within 6" - which is practically melee range, but given that many of the fights in Darktide take place literally within melee range, that's a non-issue. So, let's go down the line again.

MELTAGUN VETERAN has a 50% chance to-hit. With the beastly Strength 8 on the Meltagun, she has a 66% chance to-wound. With the AP-3 on the Meltagun, the PLEGG MEHRINE's VAUNTED CERAMITE ARMOR OF ANCIENT LEGEND only saves his pustulant aft 16.33% of the time, or, another 83.33% chance to-wound. This is the same 27.5% chance the PLASGUN VETERAN has of wounding him, however, the Meltagun has a much greater chance of killing him outright without risk of exploding in its user's hand; at the farthest reach of its range, the Meltagun rolls 1d6 for damage, meaning that it has an 83.337% chance of killing the PLEGG MEHRINE outright in one shot; at half-range, it rolls 1d3 for damage, meaning that it automagically kills him in one shot, and most likely invokes the Chunky Salsa Rule.

*Note: Yes, Rapid Fire weapons only get one shot at half-distance if the unit moved during the round. Assault weapons get their shot no matter what, however.

So, Veteran Guardsman vs. PLEGG MEHRINE? It's a lot less of a one-sided curb-stomp than the Plague Marine would like. I'll also point out that, while the PLEGG MEHRINE may indeed commit an act of brutal overkill against Imperial Guardsmen, it is the Guard player who decides where the Wounds allocated go to, which means it won't be going to the guy carrying the Space Marine Eraser in the unit. He's usually the last man to die.

How does this translate to Darktide? Well, much like with Plague Ogryn, the Plague Marine should be large. (Not as large.) He should be durable. He should be very destructive in melee, but unlike the Chaos Ogyrn, he also has a ranged weapon.

He is not a one-man army, no matter what Fluffy Books o' Lore would have you believe. Could he potentially kill an entire four-man special forces team, like a Darktide unit? Yes he could. Could he potentially go down to them like a chump without doing any appreciable damage to them? Also yes, yes he could. If that four-man unit lacks an Ogryn, and lacks any plasma or melta weapons, they're gonna have a bad time. But if the unit has an Ogyrn and two Veterans with Plasma or Meltaguns? He's just going to evaporate. If they only have one guy with a Plasgun and no Ogyrn to face-rank? They're gonna have a bad day, but they'll probably still win. As it should be.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by ShadowDragon8685:

Snip[/i]

Yeah but that's irrelevant because tabletop means nothing, only the lore where CSMs are portrayed as invincible demigods counts, any lore where they do get taken down is obviously fake news /s

[Bakeneko]

Having a relatively fresh renegade (Red Corsair for example) SM scout as a boss is not far-fetched IMO.

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Hermann|♠|:

Originally posted by Moonlight Knight:

Lasguns hit with the force of a .50 BMG, with a much higher rate of fire and ammo count and less recoil. The only reason they're jokingly called "torches" is because they exist in 40k.

And don't forget that we're not random guardsmen - we're Inquisitorial acolytes, which means we have access to the knowledge of how to fight against Chaos, and equipment the average Guardsman could only dream of. Plasma guns and bolters are accessible in-game, and melta guns have been leaked as a potential future weapon, so...

Again Plague Marines shrug off Heavy Bolter Salvos, Meltas and even Lascannons at times. And the argument was never that they are unkillable the argument is that you will not kill them because you won't get the drop on them to do so. They are too fast too strong too cunning and too f*cking tough for you to overcome. Period.

And we are not Acolytes. We merely stepped on a inquisitorial vessel for 5 minutes and suddenly have all the wisdom of the forbidden knowledge under lock and key for millennia within us to be the perfect chaos killser? No.

Finish the game and get back to me.

[Hermann|♠|]

Originally posted by ShadowDragon8685:

Bla Bla Bla...

Like i told you before Lore and Tabletop rules are not the same. and Quoting Tabletop rules does nothing to counter the Lore argument. The Tabletop makes consessions to all factions in it so the game can happen. Everything in Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy for that matter can pretty much oneshot everything else and that is by design because otherwise the game could not be played.

That does not mean that the Lore is different though. This is a Videogame that already takes huge liberties with the Lore so it can happen so further bending the Lore just so you get to geek out over killing a CSM is not a good look for a game that wants to respect the Lore and be coherent.

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by Hermann|♠|:

And if the Daemonhosts ingame were such a Daemonhost you might have a point but they obviously aren't cuz we can defeat them and if they were Tertius and the entire world would be lost so you point is moot.

You're just being intentionally obtuse, aren't you? My point is that Daemonhosts run a spectrum of power. They aren't just random freaking Nurglings, even if they obviously aren't Cherubael-tier either. They could very well be perfectly capable of fighting a CSM, no matter how much you screech that CSMs are invulnerable to anything (and everything all at once) in this entire game.

They're not. Not in the games, not in the lore.

Quoting myself from earlier here:

"Again Plague Marines shrug off Heavy Bolter Salvos, Meltas and even Lascannons at times. And the argument was never that they are unkillable the argument is that you will not kill them because you won't get the drop on them to do so. They are too fast too strong too cunning and too f*cking tough for you to overcome. Period."

I never said that they are unkillable i said that you or i would not stand a chance at killing them. Unless you want to fight a Plague Marine or any other CSM that is trapped under a Leman Russ Tank, half crushed with no weapon and obviously out of action before we arrive there is no real argument to be had about us doing so.

[Robotnik]

Ye daemonhosts are not your atypical lesser demon. If any it's atleast exalts, heralds or greater demons as the lowest tier

[Arkady]

Originally posted by Crawdad Man:

Ya, the story is clearly not yet in the game, so I've been assuming the "final" boss is going to be a chaos space marine forever now. It's just a logical conclusion, beat all the bad guys until you get a real bad guy, probably will kill an actual greater deamon in a dlc or something. Probably kill Abbadon or a chaos Primarch or some ♥♥♥♥.

The final boss wild be the moebian 6th commander or a psyker leader of the cult for sure, this is not the kind of fights space marines loyalist or traitors get involved unless escalate to a global system war.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Arkady:

Originally posted by Crawdad Man:

Ya, the story is clearly not yet in the game, so I've been assuming the "final" boss is going to be a chaos space marine forever now. It's just a logical conclusion, beat all the bad guys until you get a real bad guy, probably will kill an actual greater deamon in a dlc or something. Probably kill Abbadon or a chaos Primarch or some ♥♥♥♥.

The final boss wild be the moebian 6th commander or a psyker leader of the cult for sure, this is not the kind of fights space marines loyalist or traitors get involved unless escalate to a global system war.

'cept in the lore, CSM are known to send a few dudes along as "advisors" to successful cults/mortal warbands.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Originally posted by Arkady:

The final boss wild be the moebian 6th commander or a psyker leader of the cult for sure, this is not the kind of fights space marines loyalist or traitors get involved unless escalate to a global system war.

There isn't any 'Final Boss.' There's no story in Darktide beyond the set-up. In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, there is Only Randomly Generated Missions.

The guy you kill in the courthouse? Just assume that he was anything from a Lieutenant to the Lord Captain of the Moebian 6th.

[Mr.Zombie]

Originally posted by ShadowDragon8685:

Originally posted by Arkady:

The final boss wild be the moebian 6th commander or a psyker leader of the cult for sure, this is not the kind of fights space marines loyalist or traitors get involved unless escalate to a global system war.

There isn't any 'Final Boss.' There's no story in Darktide beyond the set-up. In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, there is Only Randomly Generated Missions.

The guy you kill in the courthouse? Just assume that he was anything from a Lieutenant to the Lord Captain of the Moebian 6th.

The guy in the courthouse is lame, I hope devs remove him and add something actually funny to fight against instead of place med and spam mouse 1.
Not to mention that apparently devs cannot create a boss fight without trash mobs coming to you cause they can't create a proper boss fight, instead they create this endless horde with a damage sponge in it.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Mr.Zombie:

Originally posted by ShadowDragon8685:

There isn't any 'Final Boss.' There's no story in Darktide beyond the set-up. In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, there is Only Randomly Generated Missions.

The guy you kill in the courthouse? Just assume that he was anything from a Lieutenant to the Lord Captain of the Moebian 6th.

The guy in the courthouse is lame, I hope devs remove him and add something actually funny to fight against instead of place med and spam mouse 1.

Considering it's pretty much the exact same dude in the train station assassinate, I'm not holding too high hopes right now.

[Oozy]

How about this we kill CSM's by helping out a greyknight. We hold off the chumps while a greyknight 1 v 5's a squad of plague marines, maybe even assist with some cheap shots or igniting barrels around him or something during a greater daemon summoning.

[Hermann|♠|]

Originally posted by Oozy:

How about this we kill CSM's by helping out a greyknight. We hold off the chumps while a greyknight 1 v 5's a squad of plague marines, maybe even assist with some cheap shots or igniting barrels around him or something during a greater daemon summoning.

More plausible but i would still have to say no to it. If there is one Grey Knight there is more. And if there was Grey Knights we should be playing them and not Prisoners as they would pretty much faceroll this "Rebellion"