The base idea is good

[lebeststratege]

I just played the demo, and I like it so far (review after my first win).

Gameplay wise I fail to understand what improve the max size of my hand.

I would advise for some science only cards (either high level techs and/or repeatable unit buffs) so that science still see some use later in the game.

Controling the units feels a bit clunky, mostly because they can either move or attack, not both (cavalry could deserve a charge), and all at the end of turn. It slow down the game a lot, but I don't know what would better for MP...
On top I might have miss it, but it seems that unit can't heal themselves, which feels odd.

I'll probably play a lot more of this game provided it continues to improve, because the "fast paced rogue-like deck-building civ game" is a strange combination

[John MTS]

Thanks for the feedback!

The tech tree isn't finished yet so there will be more techs to use your science on in the late game.

You're correct that a lot of the movement and combat mechanics are built around multiplayer. I've considered making SP play differently but so far have decided to make it play identically in SP and MP.

Units will automatically heal on a turn where they don't fight.

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by John MTS:

Thanks for the feedback!
You're correct that a lot of the movement and combat mechanics are built around multiplayer. I've considered making SP play differently but so far have decided to make it play identically in SP and MP.

I would really really advise against this : I'm a single player type of person, and I'll never play your game MP, and I know I'm not the only one. Games are only successfull MP if they are great single player experiences (because it builds the player base). Right now there is another 4X game that I love but don't play due to a similar movement of units, it's called Oriental Empire.

It's your choice anyway, but I though you'd like to have some feedback.

[John MTS]

Originally posted by lebeststratege:

Originally posted by John MTS:

Thanks for the feedback!
You're correct that a lot of the movement and combat mechanics are built around multiplayer. I've considered making SP play differently but so far have decided to make it play identically in SP and MP.

I would really really advise against this : I'm a single player type of person, and I'll never play your game MP, and I know I'm not the only one. Games are only successfull MP if they are great single player experiences (because it builds the player base). Right now there is another 4X game that I love but don't play due to a similar movement of units, it's called Oriental Empire.

It's your choice anyway, but I though you'd like to have some feedback.

I overall agree with your assessment on the SP / MP stuff. I think the relevant questions are 1.) Is the experience less enjoyable with movement and attacks happening after you end your turn and 2.) As this is basically a solo dev project, can I maintain / test 2 play modes that have significant differences like that

Regardless, really appreciate the feedback!

[lebeststratege]

Originally posted by John MTS:

I overall agree with your assessment on the SP / MP stuff. I think the relevant questions are 1.) Is the experience less enjoyable with movement and attacks happening after you end your turn and 2.) As this is basically a solo dev project, can I maintain / test 2 play modes that have significant differences like that

Regardless, really appreciate the feedback!

1 YES definitly, mostly because, as of now, you can't move and attack with a sigle unit. But you can make make a single unit move and attack if the unit move before on a second unit itself possess an attack move.

Also the movements aren't simultaneous but successive after the end of turn, with factions having a turn order (but I'm none the wiser as to how the game decide which unit turn it will be), so it feels random as to which units get to move or attack first (and randomness in game mecanics always leave a sour taste). At the same time every other actions the unit can take are instantaneous (forage, pillage, capture, settle), which is a constrast that leads to whiching unit movements and fighting couls be better. Of course it also means that the game would in turn be sequential, or a clic fest (if simultaneous akin to Civ 6 MP).

I Hate clic fest (gives unfair advantage to the host of the game, period, or the computer, period).
Sequential doesn't seem that bad, since there is already a "clic fest" aspect in the game : the
building of wonders, which is "first come first served". But it's my feeling of SP oriented person. The best argument I can bring for sequential is that the game is fast paced anyway, you can get rid of the latency of other people playing but using a double rotation in the action order (first player rotate every turn, and once a player have taken an action it's up to the next player, until everyone pass). The game would evolve into one where your first action is dictated by your priorities. Lots of actions would get some additionnal implicit costs such as teching, drawing a card, etc...

2 can you maintain 2 modes of turn order as a solo dev? probably not. Do you have a workable movement system right now? Imho of potential customer, i'd give it a 3/10 (lots of competition), meaning to me it's servicable, but definitly a big let down in the game.
On top of it, it favors booming a big time, since poping unit out cost you both resources and futur growth (the pop) for a benefit which feels clunky to use, is heavily hampered by the defender benefit (a warrior need to travel 4 to 5 turn to reach an enemy city, which had time to grow and pop out a knight) and so may cost you the game (to the point I only care to build scout to kill settlers, and I scrap every low tier unit without building one).

I congrat you to be able to achieve such a game solo, it's no small feat (I wouldn't know where to start), and I hope you can bring it to it's best state while staying sane :D

[easytarget]

My buy / no buy decisions for games is based exclusively on whether I believe the SP portion of a game is well done. Period full stop.

MP makes for a nice addition, especially coop, but it's far and away a secondary concern.

P.S. For a good example of well designed MP play Gladius. The MP/Coop plays like a turned based real time combo in that all the players can do most of what they want even during other players turns then each turn resolves the outcomes once all you can do for a given turn is completed.

[John MTS]

A few key points I'd like to make on this:

1. 100% agree that single player success precedes multiplayer. I'm well aware of this and my dev plan reflects that. There's two key components there:
- Bot improvements
- Weekly campaigns. Inspired by our current daily challenges but a sequence of games with some carryover between levels

2. I totally agree on hating click fest in a turn-based game. Actions have effects immediately in every case UNLESS they affect the actions of another player taking their turn (moves and attacks). If two players build the same wonder on the same turn, they both get it. If two players buy the same resource off the market during the same turn, they both get it. In MP you're only racing the turn timer. It's a turn-based game. Even in multiplayer with 10 players taking their turn at the same time.

3. The sequence that units move and attack in is predictable though I admit, not explained well enough in a clear and obvious way. Attacks always go before moves and there's an arrow at the top of the screen that indicates who's attack and move orders go first this turn. It reverses every turn.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

Instead of making a new thread, I'll throw my $0.02 here. First: I only played the demo, so if things have changed since that was put out, sorry for retreading old ground.

I *LOVE* the idea of this. Civ and similar games just last too damned long, and get too complicated for my smooth brain. Once I get past the early game I get kind of overwhelmed and lose interest. This game fixes that by making the whole game what one would consider the "early game" in a civ-style game.

One thing that really bugged me was the clicking to distribute food and luxuries. I read on the pop up that you can multi-click the icon to pick up more than one, but wouldn't it be simpler and more intuitive to click the icon once, then shift-click as long as you want to keep allocating them? Instead of having to click 2n times, you need only click n+1 times (where n is the number of goods you wish to allocate).

I seemed to encounter a bug near the end of the 25 turns whereby my right-click would not dismiss the active card, I'd have to press Escape.

I'm glad to read above that science will be expanded, that was going to be one of my complaints how it loses all utility halfway through the game.

Good stuff, though. Keep it up. ^^

[raveman]

I believe the end of turn movement should stay as it makes MP games way faster, and has low impact on SP. On the other hand it could be improved. Better explanation of the move/attack order should be implemented. Also some troops should be able to make a move and attack.

[John MTS]

Thanks for the feedback! We do plan to improve the resource distribution click situation. And current plan is to keep the "WEGO" system even in single player games.

I think I know the bug you encountered where it wouldn't put a card down - hopefully fixed next patch.

[Eomdil]

Gonna leave a quick opinion about my first game here:
Somewhere between turn 15 and 20 the game stopped being fun and became nothing but a chore. With more than 50 hammers and 100 gold per turn, a single turn took me between 10 to 15 minutes.

The game needs some mechanics to stop the ressource income spiralling out of control.

[John MTS]

Was the turn duration long because of game performance or you just had too many things to do during your turn? Thanks for the feedback

[Eomdil]

Too many things to do. The performance was fine.

[Buzzerker]

I'm sort of liking it. Huge fan of Civ V and VI, Beyond Earth, sort of like Humankind, so this game was a natural for me. It's kind of a struggle, more so than Civ V or VI, can be a little confusing at times, not as defined or easy to define as it should be. Combat animations are underwhelming, it's more like a board game than even Civ VI is. I like the card thing, it reminds me of Civ VI. The thing is it's not exactly where I would want it to be, but the fact that the demo has stuck in my mind and I want to try it again because I only played about 20 turns, means that there is some good in this game that is fun in my opinion. The card game within the game itself, is a very strong core element. I like it, it brings a randomness to the game. Dealing with the cards, where you can save some from the previous hand for the next hand, turn the cards into hammers and science, discard for hammers, discard and redraw again. It's interesting, sometimes tedious, can be confusing, but it is refreshingly unique nevertheless. The Demo map is teeny tiny and claustrophobic. The time scale is too short. Those two things concern me. But then again I haven't finished the Demo yet.

[MATEJZAO]

I wouldn't advise against MP. The small format of island helps to build a fast paced MP games, it only depends how popular this game becomes to maintain the active playerbase but still 3 players shouldn't be hard to find.