Why do japanese games get a pass for having garbage graphical fidelity?

[CosmoDale]

^^

[Fluff Fact⚙ry]

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

What i really meant was that when you compare JRPGs to western games of similar caliber, the graphical fidelity of their counterpart is normally objectively better. Now this doesn't mean artstyles. let's take the Monstrum Nox, it is going for a style, but in my opinion it doesn't achieve that. I've said this a lot in this thread, i mean things like the low resolution of most textures and how the lighting is so bad that the player models stick out like a bad thumb. unless there going for a ps2 aesthetic then my bad.

Then you should have asked question like this since the beginning. But again, saying bad/outdated graphics, everyone can understand. But garbage? That's considered personal attack, even worse when without specific examples. The rest I will answer later, but I think it is not that difficult to understand why.

[essen]

Roasted Roach původně napsal:

you want another garbage Japanese game with good reviews ?

(Fantasy Girl)

Recent Reviews:
Mostly Positive (14)

All Reviews:
Very Positive (1,937) *

For all you know this could be a very good jigsaw puzzle game. There are lots of enthusiasts of these games on Steam, and there are also a lot of adult content creeps, so it might be a good combination. Plus since this topic is about graphics, well the art looks nice enough so I'm not sure why you're linking to this one.

Roasted Roach původně napsal:

(The Last of Waifus)

All Reviews:
Very Positive (88)
92% positive

Japanese games always get away with it

I wouldn't say this one got away with it. It only has 88 reviews. That means most people just never noticed or nope'd quickly without trying the game. It's reasonably successful for a niche game so I suppose the people this would cater to are pleased. But it's by no means a big success.

You can't really compare niche games to more mainstream ones because niche games have a much smaller potential regardless of how well the game is made. There are plenty non-JP games like this as well. The POSTAL games are one example, including POSTAL 4 which is in early access.

[CosmoDale]

Roasted Roach původně napsal:

you want another garbage Japanese game with good reviews ?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1064730/Fantasy_Girl/

Recent Reviews:
Mostly Positive (14)

All Reviews:
Very Positive (1,937) *

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1359650/The_Last_of_Waifus/

All Reviews:
Very Positive (88)
92% positive

Japanese games always get away with it

Completely not what i'm talking about. Utterly missed my point.

[CosmoDale]

Ruya Gehhilfe původně napsal:

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

What i really meant was that when you compare JRPGs to western games of similar caliber, the graphical fidelity of their counterpart is normally objectively better. Now this doesn't mean artstyles. let's take the Monstrum Nox, it is going for a style, but in my opinion it doesn't achieve that. I've said this a lot in this thread, i mean things like the low resolution of most textures and how the lighting is so bad that the player models stick out like a bad thumb. unless there going for a ps2 aesthetic then my bad.

Then you should have asked question like this since the beginning. But again, saying bad/outdated graphics, everyone can understand. But garbage? That's considered personal attack, even worse when without specific examples. The rest I will answer later, but I think it is not that difficult to understand why.

In my question i said: 'Why do japanese games get a pass for having garbage graphical fidelity?'. It's like everyone in this thread made up a question that they could argue against when i'm asking a completely different thing. As for 'garbage' being a personal attack, i'm just using slang i don't know why you feel so threatened by it.

[Fluff Fact⚙ry]

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

In my question i said: 'Why do japanese games get a pass for having garbage graphical fidelity?'. It's like everyone in this thread made up a question that they could argue against when i'm asking a completely different thing. As for 'garbage' being a personal attack, i'm just using slang i don't know why you feel so threatened by it.

Nah I don't feel threatened by it, I just feel my favourite franchise and other good JRPGs get trashed along. In other words, I find that word - garbage - offensive, not to myself only but I believe it's the same for others too, so bring your "slang" logic and throw it to the bin, because that is garbage thinking. Out of many f*cking words to describe a graphic texture such as blurry, dull, plastic, bland, flat, meh, out-of-place, etc. you choose the most f*cking offensive word and still think that "I'm just nicely asking". Don't worry, I am not insulting you, and the "f*cking" is just a word to emphasize things.

But you should learn to open a topic with appropriate tone and words using. I'm not trying to be smartass teaching others, but again I deemed your way of thinking is a wrong way to do. Because if I see you make an excuse for using that word to generalize the whold Japanese games again, this won't be a civilized discussion anymore, and the "f*cking" will turn to "f*ck you", the end of it. Apologizing for the recent tone, but my blood keep boiling everytime you excused about it.

[CosmoDale]

Ruya Gehhilfe původně napsal:

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

In my question i said: 'Why do japanese games get a pass for having garbage graphical fidelity?'. It's like everyone in this thread made up a question that they could argue against when i'm asking a completely different thing. As for 'garbage' being a personal attack, i'm just using slang i don't know why you feel so threatened by it.

Nah I don't feel threatened by it, I just feel my favourite franchise and other good JRPGs get trashed along. In other words, I find that word - garbage - offensive, not to myself only but I believe it's the same for others too, so bring your "slang" logic and throw it to the bin, because that is garbage thinking. Out of many f*cking words to describe a graphic texture such as blurry, dull, plastic, bland, flat, meh, out-of-place, etc. you choose the most f*cking offensive word and still think that "I'm just nicely asking". Don't worry, I am not insulting you, and the "f*cking" is just a word to emphasize things.

But you should learn to open a topic with appropriate tone and words using. I'm not trying to be smartass teaching others, but again I deemed your way of thinking is a wrong way to do. Because if I see you make an excuse for using that word to generalize the whold Japanese games again, this won't be a civilized discussion anymore, and the "f*cking" will turn to "f*ck you", the end of it. Apologizing for the recent tone, but my blood keep boiling everytime you excused about it.

Ok sure my bad, i didn't know people would find the word garbage offensive. Bear in mind that this is a video game discussion forum, not the houses of parliment. doesn't mean we should be rude but maybe a bit more lax.

Now that I wrote my question again maybe in a better format, what we you say in return?

[vexe00]

> you want another garbage Japanese game with good reviews ?

What do you mean "another"? What is so difficult for you to understand about Nobeta being genuinely a great game?

As for the games you posted, one is currently at 78% positive (seventies are usually bad/broken games), and it got the positive reviews coz it's a 1 dollar jigsaw puzzle game with good pornographic art, it seems. And some positive meme/troll reviews No issues there.

The other one costs less than 2 bucks for mindless shooting action. And let me quote the reviews....
"Better than the Last of us part 2."
There. THAT is why it's so positive. People trolling a terrible sequel to a super popular game, which got good reviews by coercing and bribing reviewers. Here's another review...
"Its a $2 shovelware meme game, it's really just a joke and for less than a beer its alright to kill 20 minutes."

> Japanese games always get away with it

I gave you evidence they absolutely don't and I explained Nobeta.

[Fluff Fact⚙ry]

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

What i really meant was that when you compare JRPGs to western games of similar caliber, the graphical fidelity of their counterpart is normally objectively better.

Here is my take to answer this one, it will take another wall of text, but I will try to make it short.

1. Japan never put the stress on graphics evolution like Western in the first place. Tell me how many Japanese games these days get featured along with next-gen graphic terms like ray-tracing, 4K, DLSS, new lightings/rendering methods? I believe you cannot count more than 10, 5 is already difficult enough. For NVIDIA ads, the most recent I remember is Death Stranding. Final Fantasy XV, Resident Evil Remake 2-3, BoTW...and that's all?. Instead, you get Metro Exodus, Crysis, Tomb Raider, Control, COD, Battlefield, Witcher 3, and more as always the epitome of their ads. After all, Western games like to chase open-world with rich details, clouds, volumetric lightings, shadows, reflections, complex textures, physics, etc.

2. Let's see how many big Japanese AAA companies remain in today world? Nintendo, Sony Playstation, SEGA, Square Enix, Bandai Namco, Capcom, K̶o̶n̶a̶m̶i̶. Koei Tecmo. Notice anything? Well all titles mentioned in (1) above are coming from them. Because they have big budget, huge development teams, thus having better in-house engine & graphics technology. SE with Luminous engine (though they somewhat abandoned it to use UE4 instead for FF7R), Bandai with one that can easily create any licensed anime game like making instant-noodle, and powerful one for SAO and CodeVein/God Eater, or can ultilize UE4 like SE as well. Konami with used-to-be Fox Engine, Capcom with RE Engine currently, and SEGA with Dragon Engine for Yakuza. For Koei, well no needs to talk about boing-boing-waifus-simulator engine.

3. Then you have small to medium companies like Falcom, Nippon Icchi Software (NIS), Spike Chunsoft, Idea Factory, XSEED, etc. They do have their own engines, but again, no where near the level of big JAAA companies. Obviously, much smaller teams, given tight budget in developing & PR meaning much lower sales, thus further makes it difficult to develop & evolutionize the next game. The only 3 exceptions are ATLUS (now owned by SEGA), Arc System Works and From Software which are capable of producing AAA games, selling a ton and being widely known to everyone.

4. Again like I said, Japan never put the stress on graphics evolution since PS2 era. Hell, they wouldn't even care about global market back then, just went privately in Japan region (thus a lot of hidden gem forever unknown to us). Because their players love the niches in the style, the story, the aesthetic, the characters, and especially the characters. So as long as your character look outstanding, as anime-ish as possible, and despite looking out of place because of the area around having dull textures, the players don't mind. After all, you still have the amount of texts to read, full of items and stats to manage, plus funny, weird to even naughty activities, cliche moments and of course, fun gameplay to care about.

5. It is not easy to switch to new engine, especially most common like UE4 and Unity - where the housing of countless games, including Serious Sam 4, Dusk. Falcom used to think of trying it but they gave up, and rather continuing to develop their own. This should be the same for other similar size J-companies.

6. Yet Japanese people are very self-aware and conservative, affecting the evolution in gaming & graphics as well. Remember Nintendo with the Anti-aliasing as devil meme? Even Capcom being successful now is still very cautious and asking fans for feedback, so that they could design the next game sastify them while getting at much revenue as possible. Or Falcom, like I said, is very cautious about expanding, moving to global market, PC and now Switch platform. Therefore, it is not easy for them to go bigger, even more difficult when you take limited budget and team size into account, plus niche attraction - that people still follow, still buy without asking much about graphics fidelity -> "maybe we don't even need to go hard, just keep it steady like this".

A clear example of this is KEMCO, well, still making games like traditional 2D JRPGs like it's SNES era

7. And I have to remind you that, PS2 can be the booming of a lot of JRPGs, PS3 and later also saw a lot of their deaths along with their devs. Still remember Tri-ace? Blue Dragon & Lost Odyssey by Mistwalker? Because they dream big, go big, burn bright for a few time, then go off. SE and Bandai as smaller groups used to be on the verge of collapsing as well. Therefore, current JA-AA even AAA companies wouldn't want that to happen, again.

[Fluff Fact⚙ry]

Roasted Roach původně napsal:

you want another garbage Japanese game with good reviews ?

Fantasy Girl, the Last of Waifus

essen původně napsal:

.....

Cosmo Line původně napsal:

....

Oh come on, you guys really fall for this sh*t? They are not made by Japanese people !!!, more like some edgy-horny white dudes stole some 2D sprites & images from Pixiv/DevianArt/Yander.re, or anime 3D models & assets plus a zigsaw or generic FPS coding, mix them together and we get those abomination.

Just because they have some Japanese romanji words on their devs name, some anime girl picture/model on the game does not mean it being instantly made by Japanese. Everyone can draw 2D, model 3D figure like that you know. In addition, they could've just sold it to bots to pump up the reviews and positivity, making others catching the trap. Hell I could even name my team "Morning Kimochi" and you guys would fall for it. Seriously?

This happened not because of horny kids and idiots on Steam giving them sh**ty titles a pass, but because of Steam opening the trashgate themself as well, there is literally zero content check, and will only act and remove those offensive when story goes to the news and the community.

Therefore, I would categorize these as "Cheap edgy s*x & t**ties for edgy kids"

vexe00 původně napsal:

I gave you evidence they absolutely don't and I explained Nobeta.

But this game, Little Witch Nobeta, like Vexe said is a genuine game, whether it is made from Japanese or not. You guys may feel like it similar to two trashes above, but it is infinitely far from that. Because it has proper gameplay, has heart and souls put into it, and fun things to do. Of course I never say it is a masterpiece, 9/10 or anything, it does have a lot of drawbacks in terms of graphics and gameplay as clearly seen through trailer and screenshots. Yet truth be told, this looks more like 1-2 student made together project, hence obvious quality. Furthermore, it is clearly in Early Access state, so everyone should know and expect the good and bad comings of this. Nevertheless, in the end players can understand devs situation and appreciate their efforts, plus having fun in return, thus the overwhelming positive.

Therefore, I would categorize these as "Not bad for an amateur, you can do it better! I support you"

The following is also in the same category, but free. Even AngryJoe is having fun with it

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1116960/UNDEFEATED/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdbtPYx7yLw&

[Azerate]

Because number one, graphics aren't the most important thing that defines the game. Sure, it does contribute to how you experience the game, but there are other important factors alongside it.

And number two, by going for a certain "special" aesthetic, you can pretty much skip the graphical fidelity "arms race" completely and make it a non-factor. JRPG games often go for anime style visuals. The pinnacle of anime style visuals doesn't require high graphical fidelity, so it becomes a non-issue that some other games are better looking.

A non-jrpg good example of that phenomenon is World of Warcraft. That game obviosuly can't compete with any modern game with graphics, but because it has a certain aesthetic it kind of bypasses the need to be as modern looking as possible. It just has this unique flavor to it.

[Gin-chan]

Hrmm this may be an old topic but personally its because Japanese games usually cover it with better gameplay/more interesting story/setting. Not to mention that usually Anime art style ( Which most people that play japanese games prefer) usually does not really need hyper realistic graphics the likes of Red Dead Redemption 2 or Last of Us 2 and such, as it really does not match the artstyle .

[Gin-chan]

Azerate původně napsal:

Because number one, graphics aren't the most important thing that defines the game. Sure, it does contribute to how you experience the game, but there are other important factors alongside it.

And number two, by going for a certain "special" aesthetic, you can pretty much skip the graphical fidelity "arms race" completely and make it a non-factor. JRPG games often go for anime style visuals. The pinnacle of anime style visuals doesn't require high graphical fidelity, so it becomes a non-issue that some other games are better looking.

A non-jrpg good example of that phenomenon is World of Warcraft. That game obviosuly can't compete with any modern game with graphics, but because it has a certain aesthetic it kind of bypasses the need to be as modern looking as possible. It just has this unique flavor to it.

Huh i really should have read the post directly above me lol. But yeah thats the gist of it XD

[Mendo Shutaro]

Falcom are a tiny dev whose main target had always been PSP, then Vita. This one is targeting the Switch and PS4, so it's unreasonable to expect AAA visuals from it. They should probably price them a little lower though.

[ytivarg]

Games arent just about graphics. The push for better graphics is whats causing so much strain on the games industry. Most of the best games ever made have ♥♥♥♥ graphics.

[AH-1 Cobra]

The graphics do look kinda garbo to be honest....I can tell just by the lighting in the game in the few screenshots posted, and videos of gameplay. I don't see modern lightning techniques being used. It looks like a game from 2011. Other indie developers are putting stuff like ray tracing in their games, I don't see why Falcom couldn't do it.