A critisism of the characters in the game [Spoilers]

[BlackZodiac]

Alright, I've played this game till the end, and I have some stuff I need to get off my chest.

Only continue reading if you've finished the game.


final warning...

....

Alright, here we go.


I don't understand why everyone praises the story so much.

In this story, (almost) everyone is a ♥♥♥♥ and a terrible person and I've pretty much disliked everyone. Exception being Ryan, who's really just a bro trying to keep everything intact and everyone leveled. I'm not sure if it's entirely intentional or we're meant to sympathize with like...anyone.

Lets look at all our characters.

First the colonists who all pretty much abandoned Earth, their families and kept all the revolutionary tech to themselves. They didn't even leave a USB stick with the schematics or anything behind. Even if you're going to take off and keep everything to yourself you can at least leave the science for others to find on the moon. You know. Give Earth some sort of chance.

McArthur is playing his dream dictator role, even refusing to give other's some R&R. And then he's surprised his overworked slaves don't reproduce.

Rosa Laverde is trying to sabotage and undermine the colony. I didn't necessarily disagree with her till she started to break out the security drones.

But, sure, those were supposed to be the 'bad' characters who stirred up conflict by being two extreme opposite sides of each other. It's the point of the story, you say.

Let's continue down the list.

Isaac is trying to be neutral between them and when he finally takes sides it's only to eliminate the previously mentioned opposite leaders (as well as pretty much everyone in ARK Habitas). He pretends to care about humanity but really he only does it for his one daughter who he cares for most and completely alienates Claire. He pretends to be altruistic but he's actually incredibly selfish. Living in the past by recreating the house even and trying to lure his daughter there and thereby betraying his fellow colonists.

Doesn't even consider giving the revolutionary tech to Earth because "the most powerful nations will claim it". As if that makes millions or billions of people less worth of receiving it instead of a handful of colonists. What a guy.

Now onto the main characters.

Claire got herself offed because of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Engaging auto landing for a ship that's blowing up around you...what?! I guess it was necessary for the story but c'mon.

Sarah is under orders or whatever to kill the insurgent leaders if they don't come. Which is already sounding pretty bad and revenge-y for the WSA. But she's also quite a coward to want to run away when things look a little difficult. Manipulative too. Unnecessary hateboner. Feels it's perfectly fine to use weapons against the 'oppressor' and doesn't see the irony in what the colonists did to Earth.

Kathy also regularly disobeys orders, even when they seem reasonable. Is singularly focused on finding her father instead of trying to bring the revolutionary tech to Earth.

Kathy I guess bothered me the most because we play as her. But the whole "I do what I want and I will ignore reasonable orders" annoyed me.

And poor Ryan is just trying to do his job and makes some perfectly reasonable arguments that both Rosa and McArthur are equally responsible for this escalation that led to mass murder. Had some blood on his hands in the end as well because he was forced to.

None of the characters are likeable, except for Ryan. I wished for pretty much all of them to die.

Probably to a certain extend the game meant this, but I can't imagine it purposefully making the main character and supporting characters equally unlikely.

I didn't like story.

[Lightbringer]

I think that's just one of the main messages the game tries to tell: humankind is doomed because everyone has their own agenda, everyone's selfish, flawed, a mess, etc. Even Goodguy Ryan has some bodies in his closet (or rather floating behind him) in the end.

[Buffy]

I agree with you one some things.

My main beef is also with Kathy. There is absolutely no reason for her to have any allegiance to her father. None. He left her alone for long periods of time, he abused Claire constantly by only focussing on her, hes actually quite the coward, who is afraid of even the tiniest decisions. And the more we/Kathy learn about him, the worse it gets. He has no redeeming quality. None. That's why the end part of the game makes no sense to me. Kathy feels for the most part not like a character, but a weak motivation to push the story in certain directions. She also feels very inconsistent.

I agree with your stance on Claires death. It was out of character and honestly it didnt help the story much, though I liked that Ryan and Sarah got more screentime.

I'm actually also fine with Sarah. I thought she was a nicely written well-rounded character, even though not very likable. I again had more problem with Ryan, who betrayed Sarahs privacy at any turn to tell Kathy her darkest and most traumatic experiences.

I wish they would have focussed less on the rebellion story, because honestly I didnt care about any of those guys and focussed more on the Claire/Kathy/Sarah/Ryan dynamic.

[gdfrew]

You're all talking like we should have perfect character arcs and everyone does everything perfectly, humane and just a wonderful all round good guy. c'mon now. These stories are supposed to create controversy

[churchy]

One of my main issues is, that I don't understand why Isaac disliked/ignored Claire so much. Unless I missed something, he just ignores her just because. Assuming that, its not like they had some ways already setup to create that rift. After their Mother died she became the Mother figure to Kathy and went against a lot of Isaac ideologies for example.

Also, the End, the assumption is that Earth has gone completely haywire? (Guess that is left open and vague intentionally) Considering the Trip to Mars took around 6 Months already and Kathy said the MPT Dishes she repairs at the start won't hold for too long anymore. Plus the overall theme of humanity is a doomed.

[Wakane]

I think the story's good. It portrays the humanity as a more accurate picture, instead of a boy-scout happy go lucky koombaya good.

The final speech tells it all. Most of the characters have good intentions in their mind, They way they approach to the goal differ. One group will say they're right, and other groups do, too.

As old proverb say, "When there are two heads, there will always be differences in opinions".

I'm just wondering what really happens to the colony they left. I don't understand when Ryan said "taken care of". Won't they die 'cuz all the ARKs are now gone?

[SyphonLife]

Ryan is cool and I liked him right up until he starts playing devil's advocate for McArthur and claiming that if Rosa wouldn't have fought McArthur that all those people might not have died. This is victim-blaming plain and simple.

On one hand I still give Ryan the benefit of the doubt because I don't think he was responding with all the available information because Kathy was hoarding it, plus we don't know how much he knows about what happened during DUTM event.

That said.....

Rosa is 100% justified in fighting against McArthur and I'll argue with anyone that disagrees. She was FREAKING KIDNAPPED from the moon AGAINST HER WILL and FORCED to live on Mars AWAY FROM HER FAMILY.

I mean, seriously. How are there actually people that think Rosa was in the wrong? And another thing... not everyone on Mars wanted to go. A lot of those people were either coerced, tricked, or kidnapped/forced to go.

For anyone that hasn't played DUTM it is explained that McArthur and Isaac purposely sabotaged the moon base in order to trick the majority of the people working there into evacuating to the Arks. Some knew what was really going on but a lot did not and next thing they know they are waking up from cryosleep in a situation that they did not agree to.

They are 100% in the right to fight against a dictator that forced them into a situation where they would never see their families again. McArthur is a psycho that forced (some of) them into inhumane living conditions against their will and then cut off the air when they decided to fight back. And Isaac is a psycho for tricking people into evacuating to Mars, and then he's a psycho again for letting everyone die when he could have turned the air back on but decided to just sit there and cry while everyone died around him.

Out of the 3 Lunar Council members Rosa was the only one with any shred of humanity and intelligence.

[SyphonLife]

Originally posted by konemaster:

-- And Isaac is a psycho for tricking people into evacuating to Mars, and then he's a psycho again for letting everyone die when he could have turned the air back on but decided to just sit there and cry while everyone died around him.

He did not trick anyone directly, but he waited to let her die since he wanted to end the fighting. He made sure nobody would be around who would take up violence more easily than him (of course for this since he waited far too long and thus, also used violence against normal ppl).
Let's assume you are already on Mars and things are going out of hand and the leader will not back down. To have it halfway peaceful you would need to overrule the leader publicly and change the path of the colony. You would need to gather 5 guys, go to the leader and put him to jail if nothing helps - and then explain publicly what has been done and how to continue.

Yes Isaac absolutely tricked people directly. He straight-up LIED to Sarah Baker multiple times in Deliver Us The Moon and then when she found out what he was really doing and tried to stop him he got mad and STABBED HER.

Why on earth do you defend Isaac? He is shown MULTIPLE TIMES to murder people in order to get what he wants.

During the fight between Outward and Homeward Isaac KILLS McArthur so Rosa wouldn't have had any need to keep fighting if he had turned the air back on. Isaac had already killed the person she was going after. The REAL REASON Isaac let everyone suffocate to death is that Isaac didn't want to be taken back to earth by Rosa because he knew he'd get thrown in jail. Period.

Isaac didn't agree with the way McArthur ran things because he was too strict and he wanted a sort of middle ground between McArthur and Rosa. But then he realized that if Rosa's people won the conflict that he would probably be forced to go back to earth and he didn't want that either. Isaac wanted to keep the colony running, just with a better leader.

So what did psycho Isaac decide in the moment when dozens of people are gasping and passing out from lack of air? He decided to kill everyone present, not to end the conflict, but because it was in HIS BEST INTEREST so he could GET WHAT HE WANTED and also avoid having to take responsibility for his actions.

Everything Isaac says is weak intellectualism seeking to avoid taking responsibility for the multiple murders, deaths, kidnappings, imprisonments, lies, etc that he has committed all just because he wants to "save humanity" by living on Mars.

Isaac is 100% a psycho and it baffles me how there are so many people willing to defend his actions.

Edit:

Also, please explain to me how you would get McArthur and throw him in jail with "5 guys". You don't think other members of Outward wouldn't just set him free? You seriously think McArthur would have stepped down peacefully? Your argument makes no sense at all. You assume dictators like McArthur will behave rationally even after seeing McArthur turn off the air to kill everyone in Ark Habitas, you really think he would peacefully step down from power? You are extremely naive if you actually believe that nonsense.

[SyphonLife]

@konemaster

Sorry but you are too naive. It's not even worth my time to go into it. I have already provided examples of murder, kidnapping, etc and yet you still choose to defend these people and think they will behave rationally and nobly. All I can say is that your understanding of human behavior is woefully ignorant.

I'll just say this. In DUTM McArthur activated the ASE's and murdered dozens of people that tried to oppose him in TOMBAUGH station. You actually see all these people dead. And you seriously think a more peaceful approach from Rosa would have worked?

We won't ever agree because you actually believe a mass murderer will behave nobly and rationally and I will never believe that. If I'm going to oppose a mass murderer I will assume they mean to kill me from the beginning. Your approach would just get you locked up by the mass murderer or killed by him.

[Qybat]

There's a simpler way to view all the characters - they all share one flaw. They do what they want for their own selfish reasons, and then invent some high-minded idealistic excuse to justify it after the fact. McArther wants his utopia. Rosa wants to go home. Kat wants to find her father. Sarah wants revenge on the man who abandoned her along with the rest of the planet. Issac wants Kat to be with him at any cost. And all of them come up with some way to frame themselves as the hero of their own story.

Things turn violent because just about every character in the story can find some reason why their own needs are higher than those of everyone else, and high enough to take what they want by force. That's the exact sort of thinking McArthur was trying to leave behind when he schemed to create his colony, but he was as guilty of it as everyone else. It's just human nature. You can't leave it behind.

[Johnny Stokino]

Originally posted by gdfrew:

You're all talking like we should have perfect character arcs and everyone does everything perfectly, humane and just a wonderful all round good guy. c'mon now. These stories are supposed to create controversy

Exactly humanity is deeply flawed. Who says a story must always have perfect characters or heroes.

I cared for Kathy and I understood her determination to find her father no matter what (I want dad). Anyone who lost a parent felt that anguish. I was so proud of her in that she made the right choice once she saw the big picture. It took her some time to absorb everything and have the catharsis, but she came through in the end.

Isaac understands everything is not black and white. He is always the smartest man in the room but is so fragile emotionally. I relate to his trying to play peacemaker and his emotional breakdown in the end. His wife died. He lost his daughter. He works very hard creates technological miracles. His love for Kathy overpowers everything. He regretted the first time he left her for years, and when she was about to leave him for what she believes is right, he in the end decided to follow her despite all he believes about earth vs the colonist.

I agree with the part about sending technological blueprints. I also don't think Isaac would have been thrown into jail. He would have been too important to get that technology working again. Think (Wernher von Braun). He actually would have still been ok if he stuck around the first time too.

Sure I wish Claire survived somehow but it was sort of the catalyst for Kathy to emerge and fully come out of her shell. She has her father's smarts but is emotionally strong too and will not go quietly. She will dive with moonbear. she will disobey orders. She will eavesdrop. She will drive through an impossible storm. The unstoppable Kat ❤️

[wjousts]

Originally posted by BlackZodiac:

None of the characters are likeable, except for Ryan. I wished for pretty much all of them to die.

Erm...

...did you miss the floating corpses on Ryan's ark at the very end there? How'd you think they got that way?

[Sol Karas]

I haven't gotten too far into the game yet, but I'm already pretty down on a good chunk of the cast. Kathy annoys the hell out of me. She absolutely should not have been put on that mission in any way - she had already proven to be absolutely incapable of following even the most simple of instructions/orders, why would Claire trust her in an actually important, life-or-death situation? She acts more like a 15-year-old than, presumably, an adult.

I also feel like Claire would have worked a *lot* better as Kathy's mother than her sister. It would make Isaac not seeming to give a single ♥♥♥♥ about her make a bit more sense, too - they were estranged/separated/divorced and so all he truly cares about is his daughter. Claire already fills a parental role to Kathy as it is as well.

It's been a long ass while since I played the first game, I don't quite remember what is told about Isaac and his family, but I imagine they were probably already locked in with the family set-up, unless they wanted to do a big ol' retcon.

[BlackZodiac]

Originally posted by wjousts:

Originally posted by BlackZodiac:

None of the characters are likeable, except for Ryan. I wished for pretty much all of them to die.

Erm...

...did you miss the floating corpses on Ryan's ark at the very end there? How'd you think they got that way?

Actually I'm somewhat okay with that because of the greater good. Those rockets carry technology Earth needs so tough luck for those people trying to storm the bridge.

I'm sure good guy Ryan didn't want to but had to.

[jpsmailplace]

the USB stick got melted and destroyed in a Nuclear bomb attack