Now the dust has settled, what went wrong ?

[Lahoo Eckbert]

And also, what can TN do to improve in their next game?

I think they gotta move away from the "forced parry" genre. It's fun when it's done right but not like the way they are trying to do. It's a delicate balance of gameplay and their last two games(Wo Long and ROTR) is a proof that they are not capable of doing it.

I also think they should bring back build variety, which was very superficial in Wo Long and non existent in this game. Stat system and skill tree in ROTR is for the most part useless. I miss Nioh 2 in that regard.

Another issue is the redundancy of gear. I think everybody looked forward to getting good set bonuses and certain affixes when playing Nioh. You can almost argue that your build revolved around your gear. Again in their last two games they moved away from it, to the extend that in ROTR I actually stopped looking for gear affixes and almost at a point where I'm ignoring set items.

I think they should keep stance system. Instead of high/mid/low stance, customizable system works well, it is just that the ability unlock should be tied to a skill tree, not character bonding or other nonsense.

What are your opinions ?

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Nothing went wrong as Ronin was an excellent open world action RPG (probably one of my favorite in recent times).

I agree with some of your points and I disagree with some so let me touch on some of them:

++ Wo Long has tons of build variety and that is one of my favorite parts about that game. In Wo Long you can create so many unique builds with the weapon combinations, and element combinations that its insane. I have made a fire dual sword build, a pure Monk build that uses fist/staff weapons to combo enemies to death, and a tanky great hammer/earth build that can point guard through attacks instead of parrying,...etc.

++ Ronin also has tons of build diversity which is mostly in its weapon movesets and combining of styles to make a playstyle of your own. I made a gun slinger build that focuses on the bayonet, and I have not even touched the other weapon types with their own full movesets and styles.

-- I do agree that the overall skill tree was kind of boring in this game, but once again the builds came mostly from the gameplay and the weapon type you decided to choose not stats.

-- I agree that loot (stat wise) was the most boring and uninspired its ever been. In Nioh 1-2 it was only OK as loot/stats did not matter much until endgame difficulties. Strangers of Paradise had PEAK Team Ninja build/loot systems where stats meant the difference of doing NO damage to doing all the damage. Wo Long had ok loot but the full on crafting system is what really made me like that game as from the start you could tailor your build to the stats you wanted to. So imo they need to use Strangers of Paradise as their gold standard and iterate on that but many people would hate that because gear was more important then player skill in that game.

++ I personally like the style system more then the stance system just because you can have more styles then 3 fixed ones and you can customize them to some extent.

Overall I think Ronin was peak TN in terms of combat and story, but they did drop the ball on the loot and RPG systems around loot/gear, which was probably because of the games open world nature.

My dream TN game is they took the combat complexity and skill trees from Nioh 2, they took multiple styles per weapon from Ronin, they took the gear from Strangers, they took the gear crafting systems from Wo Long, and they give more love to hand to hand combat styles over weapon styles. Mix all that up and that would be my dream TN game that takes the best parts of all their games and meshes them together in one ultimate package.

I’ll reiterate and also dispute some of this

Ronin really does not have build diversity, stance and weapon loadout should be a part of a build not the entire thing, and the set bonuses are few here, relatively weak or at least not build defining. PD and FT at least introduce new mechanics but that just makes them more of a necessity than a build choice

Even dojo basically has 1 build to strive for

But I agree that Wo Long had much deeper builds than OP and a lot of people give it credit for, but that’s mostly because you didn’t see much diversity outside of PvP which was a minority of the population

Otherwise it mostly boiled down to braindead Queen and King builds, or cheesy Zhurong, Nuwa, and Pangu builds

[Oninomiru]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

Combat degradation. Technically there is no strong attack. Only quick attack with 3 inputs that don't add much and 4 skills that are also fairly limited in application. Even with 3 styles it is just not enough input variety. You basically go XXX, X+Forward, X (hold), RB+X\Y\A\B. That's the entire combo.

I'm not going to tackle every detailed point you made as it was a great write up even if I disagree with many things, but I do want to push back with your comment regarding combat technicality and combo structure.

As with most things its depends on the weapon type your talking about as for example I can tell you from experience that combos with the Bayonet are much more involved then the combo structure you laid out and its mostly because of the amount of hold commands and additional attacks normal attacks and Martial arts have.

Many of my combos with just this weapon type usually end up something like XX, X HOLD, RB+X/Y/A/B HOLD, style change attack, end with high KI damaging MA. This also varies ALOT depending on the combo route I want to take because this weapon offers many positional changes depending on the style and many of this weapons MA's have cancels that allow for a quick gun shot rather then doing the whole move.

You are literally ONLY talking about the surface level combos you can do with all weapon types but not when you get more specialized and comfortable with your weapons gimmick. If you master your specific weapon and find the best uses for its moves/MA's my combos can look completely different then your combos, as this games system allows for a lot of player freedom and expression.

Also the counter spark is BOTH a parry and a heavy attack (good KI damage on staggered enemies), that can be weaved into combos so its not a one trick type of move, it has multiple uses depending on said situation.

Your pushing this idea that the game locks the player in the specific combo route you brought up but that could not be further form the truth and I actually found just as much player expression in this games combat as I did in Nioh 2, and the only thing missing was more command normals for weapons that I do agree TN should go back to over this more simplified XXX combo starter.

That's why I used some specific words in the sentences here. It is simplified (just like Ronin combat lol), but main point is variety and depth is just not here.
CS is not strong attack. You can extend CS into an attack out of quick string with some weapons like oxtail, but it doesn't actually deal much damage or ki damage or anything else, just leaves you extremely open due to long CS recovery.

[Tr0w]

Първоначално публикувано от Calandir:

Combat itself is amazing. And one of the best humans combat in any souls like. Sekiro might be better only. So many styles so much force behind hits, it's amazing.

What happened was poor technical state, and reviews that did this game injustice. Because many reviewers didn't understood the combat and it's depth.

Nah some of it is complete bs especially in the dojo when it comes to odachi/GS and spear/polearm users. That on top of it being pure Ubislop was enough to make me uninstall it.

This game doesn't come close to any of From's games, any of them.

[Mike]

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

I’ll reiterate and also dispute some of this

Ronin really does not have build diversity, stance and weapon loadout should be a part of a build not the entire thing, and the set bonuses are few here, relatively weak or at least not build defining. PD and FT at least introduce new mechanics but that just makes them more of a necessity than a build choice

Even dojo basically has 1 build to strive for

But I agree that Wo Long had much deeper builds than OP and a lot of people give it credit for, but that’s mostly because you didn’t see much diversity outside of PvP which was a minority of the population

Otherwise it mostly boiled down to braindead Queen and King builds, or cheesy Zhurong, Nuwa, and Pangu builds

You and me interpret "build diversity" very differently, because if a weapon/style makes me play the game completely differently then other weapons/styles and it gives me the ability to RP as a different character then the game has good build diversity, but its more in its action combat then its RPG stats.

Its not all about set bonues, and gear as ACTION comes before RPG, so if the games gives enough options to where I can play the game 15+ different ways then its has good build diversity even if the gear/stats are in the weaker side this time.

Still I get your point, I just see builds in these games a bit differently then you do, which is fine ;)

[Calandir]

Първоначално публикувано от Tr0w:

Първоначално публикувано от Calandir:

Combat itself is amazing. And one of the best humans combat in any souls like. Sekiro might be better only. So many styles so much force behind hits, it's amazing.

What happened was poor technical state, and reviews that did this game injustice. Because many reviewers didn't understood the combat and it's depth.

Nah some of it is complete bs especially in the dojo when it comes to odachi/GS and spear/polearm users. That on top of it being pure Ubislop was enough to make me uninstall it.

This game doesn't come close to any of From's games, any of them.

I disagree. And let's just leave it at that, you won't convince me, I won't convince you to change opinions.

[Mike]

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

That's why I used some specific words in the sentences here. It is simplified (just like Ronin combat lol), but main point is variety and depth is just not here.
CS is not strong attack. You can extend CS into an attack out of quick string with some weapons like oxtail, but it doesn't actually deal much damage or ki damage or anything else, just leaves you extremely open due to long CS recovery.

Then you don't know how to fully use that mechanic then, because even the tutorial shows you how counterstrike on a staggered opponent can do more Ki damage then a usual attack.

Also every single CS in the game does nto lock you in recovery as that is what blade flash is for lol. You can use CS as a ender to shorter combos, do a blade flash to cancel the recovery animations and then go into more pressure. Its why some CS's like the bayonet end in a gun butt, as it expects the player to adapt that non parry part of the move into their general moveset.

If TN intended the the CS to ONLY be used as a parry they would not have added the different recovery at the end. They made it a dual purpose move. Its a parry in its start up frames, and then its an active attack at the end, and when you understand this you can use both for different purposes.

So once again when you get your weapon mechanics down, your MA's and understand how to weave them all in and out of combat combos are much more indepth then the basic form your listed out.

Its like with Nioh 2 a player can go into that game and literally beat the game in ONE stance if they wanted too, but if they go past the surface and understand each mechanic and how/when to use it, the game transforms in to a beast of its own. Ronin is the same why but in its own unique way.

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

I’ll reiterate and also dispute some of this

Ronin really does not have build diversity, stance and weapon loadout should be a part of a build not the entire thing, and the set bonuses are few here, relatively weak or at least not build defining. PD and FT at least introduce new mechanics but that just makes them more of a necessity than a build choice

Even dojo basically has 1 build to strive for

But I agree that Wo Long had much deeper builds than OP and a lot of people give it credit for, but that’s mostly because you didn’t see much diversity outside of PvP which was a minority of the population

Otherwise it mostly boiled down to braindead Queen and King builds, or cheesy Zhurong, Nuwa, and Pangu builds

You and me interpret "build diversity" very differently, because if a weapon/style makes me play the game completely differently then other weapons/styles and it gives me the ability to RP as a different character then the game has good build diversity, but its more in its action combat then its RPG stats.

Its not all about set bonues, and gear as ACTION comes before RPG, so if the games gives enough options to where I can play the game 15+ different ways then its has good build diversity even if the gear/stats are in the weaker side this time.

Still I get your point, I just see builds in these games a bit differently then you do, which is fine ;)

Ah yea very different definitions of build then lol. I guess mechanically changing weapons/stances doesn’t necessarily change the core combat IMO, so it’s not a new “build “ in my mind

Comparatively in Wo Long, if I wanted to do a fire wizardry build that was DRASTICALLY different than a lightning melee build. It meant different weapons (optimally anyway), different spell selection, different stat distribution, different gear embedments etc

In Ronin I can keep the exact same gear on and just change my weapon and that’s all I need to do

[Oninomiru]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

That's why I used some specific words in the sentences here. It is simplified (just like Ronin combat lol), but main point is variety and depth is just not here.
CS is not strong attack. You can extend CS into an attack out of quick string with some weapons like oxtail, but it doesn't actually deal much damage or ki damage or anything else, just leaves you extremely open due to long CS recovery.

Then you don't know how to fully use that mechanic then, because even the tutorial shows you how counterstrike on a staggered opponent can do more Ki damage then a usual attack.

Also every single CS in the game does nto lock you in recovery as that is what blade flash is for lol. You can use CS as a ender to shorter combos, do a blade flash to cancel the recovery animations and then go into more pressure. Its why some CS's like the bayonet end in a gun butt, as it expects the player to adapt that non parry part of the move into their general moveset.

If TN intended the the CS to ONLY be used as a parry they would not have added the different recovery at the end. They made it a dual purpose move. Its a parry in its start up frames, and then its an active attack at the end, and when you understand this you can use both for different purposes.

So once again when you get your weapon mechanics down, your MA's and understand how to weave them all in and out of combat combos are much more indepth then the basic form your listed out.

Its like with Nioh 2 a player can go into that game and literally beat the game in ONE stance if they wanted too, but if they go past the surface and understand each mechanic and how/when to use it, the game transforms in to a beast of its own. Ronin is the same why but in its own unique way.

I understand this game's combat very well, thank you very much. You could also add that violent gale (blade flash+stance change) is cancellable with martial arts and shuriken cancel exists as well, if you want to talk variety and application.
But it still doesn't change the fact that input map in general is very limited. There is only so much you can press X before it gets stale.
A lot of buttons are wasted or underutilised. Hook attacks are also poorly designed as well, since they put you in a strange distance where you end up outside of effective range.
CS being used as strong attack is just cope though. Like I said yeah, you can kinda work it in, but it really is far from effective solution. Just using MA produces much better effect. Not only you get better ki damage, you may also get additional utility like grapple follow ups and such.

Dunno why I even argue about inputs in attacks tbh. Like I said in initial post, this game's main issue is in poorly designed systems. Simplified combat still can be fun, that's not the biggest miss with this game anyway.

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Then you don't know how to fully use that mechanic then, because even the tutorial shows you how counterstrike on a staggered opponent can do more Ki damage then a usual attack.

Also every single CS in the game does nto lock you in recovery as that is what blade flash is for lol. You can use CS as a ender to shorter combos, do a blade flash to cancel the recovery animations and then go into more pressure. Its why some CS's like the bayonet end in a gun butt, as it expects the player to adapt that non parry part of the move into their general moveset.

If TN intended the the CS to ONLY be used as a parry they would not have added the different recovery at the end. They made it a dual purpose move. Its a parry in its start up frames, and then its an active attack at the end, and when you understand this you can use both for different purposes.

So once again when you get your weapon mechanics down, your MA's and understand how to weave them all in and out of combat combos are much more indepth then the basic form your listed out.

Its like with Nioh 2 a player can go into that game and literally beat the game in ONE stance if they wanted too, but if they go past the surface and understand each mechanic and how/when to use it, the game transforms in to a beast of its own. Ronin is the same why but in its own unique way.

I understand this game's combat very well, thank you very much. You could also add that violent gale (blade flash+stance change) is cancellable with martial arts and shuriken cancel exists as well, if you want to talk variety and application.
But it still doesn't change the fact that input map in general is very limited. There is only so much you can press X before it gets stale.
A lot of buttons are wasted or underutilised. Hook attacks are also poorly designed as well, since they put you in a strange distance where you end up outside of effective range.
CS being used as strong attack is just cope though. Like I said yeah, you can kinda work it in, but it really is far from effective solution. Just using MA produces much better effect. Not only you get better ki damage, you may also get additional utility like grapple follow ups and such.

They absolutely should’ve made the grapple hook more seamless to use in combat, especially after introducing prodigious dragon

As is it’s basically a standalone attack you have to use with no flow into or out of, if it’s blocked it does nothing

Granted yes, Spring Storm and Night Raven use the grapple and trigger that PD effect, but you basically only will land the grapple if the enemy is panicked for the entire move

[Mike]

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

I understand this game's combat very well, thank you very much. You could also add that violent gale (blade flash+stance change) is cancellable with martial arts and shuriken cancel exists as well, if you want to talk variety and application.
But it still doesn't change the fact that input map in general is very limited. There is only so much you can press X before it gets stale.
A lot of buttons are wasted or underutilised. Hook attacks are also poorly designed as well, since they put you in a strange distance where you end up outside of effective range.
CS being used as strong attack is just cope though. Like I said yeah, you can kinda work it in, but it really is far from effective solution. Just using MA produces much better effect. Not only you get better ki damage, you may also get additional utility like grapple follow ups and such.

So now you want talk about combat depth but still disingenuously act like the game boils down to a singular combo route lol. You pointing out those more advance techniques proves the game has more then your surface level explanation of the systems and if the player likes to freestyle and push the combat system for all its worth there is ALOT of mechanical depth to dive into and tons more combo routes to come up with.

"CS being used as strong attack is just cope though."

Might me "cope" for you but I regularly use it in different circumstances depending on the combo I'm doing. Also fo clarify I never said it was the best tool at all times, but its still an attack the player can use as filler or an ender to their combos, especially if you make use of the animation cancels we both mentioned. There is always a "best way" to play, but if everyone decided to play NIOH 2 in the most optimial way it would be boring.

The fun of these games comes from player expression and this game has it in spades. This is coming from a person who has put 300+hrs in EACH of TNs action RPGs from Nioh 1 all the way to Wo Long, so I'm not some uninformed idiot just rambling off stuff.

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от Oninomiru:

I understand this game's combat very well, thank you very much. You could also add that violent gale (blade flash+stance change) is cancellable with martial arts and shuriken cancel exists as well, if you want to talk variety and application.
But it still doesn't change the fact that input map in general is very limited. There is only so much you can press X before it gets stale.
A lot of buttons are wasted or underutilised. Hook attacks are also poorly designed as well, since they put you in a strange distance where you end up outside of effective range.
CS being used as strong attack is just cope though. Like I said yeah, you can kinda work it in, but it really is far from effective solution. Just using MA produces much better effect. Not only you get better ki damage, you may also get additional utility like grapple follow ups and such.

So now you want talk about combat depth but still disingenuously act like the game boils down to a singular combo route lol. You pointing out those more advance techniques proves the game has more then your surface level explanation of the systems and if the player likes to freestyle and push the combat system for all its worth there is ALOT of mechanical depth to dive into and tons more combo routes to come up with.

"CS being used as strong attack is just cope though."

Might me "cope" for you but I regularly use it in different circumstances depending on the combo I'm doing. Also fo clarify I never said it was the best tool at all times, but its still an attack the player can use as filler or an ender to their combos, especially if you make use of the animation cancels we both mentioned. There is always a "best way" to play, but if everyone decided to play NIOH 2 in the most optimial way it would be boring.

The fun of these games comes from player expression and this game has it in spades. This is coming from a person who has put 300+hrs in EACH of TNs action RPGs from Nioh 1 all the way to Wo Long, so I'm not some uninformed idiot just rambling off stuff.

To Oninomiru credit, he mostly does challenge runs such as level 1 zero morale in Wo Long, so he does have a very detailed analysis and understanding of the combat mechanics of a TN game

Now, maybe that can also skew things a certain way, just like I have a PvP bias (so he and I played VERY different Wo Longs) which enjoys the counterspark and stance system here

[Mike]

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

To Oninomiru credit, he mostly does challenge runs such as level 1 zero morale in Wo Long, so he does have a very detailed analysis and understanding of the combat mechanics of a TN game

Now, maybe that can also skew things a certain way, just like I have a PvP bias (so he and I played VERY different Wo Longs) which enjoys the counterspark and stance system here

Good point!

I was simply pointing out options at the players disposal and it cannot be denied that the counterspark can be used in combos.

Maybe like you said Oninomiru (not to speak for them) is coming from a combat optimization standpoint, but I'm coming from a place where all tolls have their place and purpose and I have found many cool combo routes using the counterspark as an attack or ender.

I also found out early on in these forums that most people discussiin the counterspark have no idea what the moves full function is and many still believe the entire move is a parry lol. Yet the function of the move is 2 fold: One as a parry and the other is an attack, which can be used and integrated within normal gameplay if you are decent at the games systems.

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

To Oninomiru credit, he mostly does challenge runs such as level 1 zero morale in Wo Long, so he does have a very detailed analysis and understanding of the combat mechanics of a TN game

Now, maybe that can also skew things a certain way, just like I have a PvP bias (so he and I played VERY different Wo Longs) which enjoys the counterspark and stance system here

Good point!

I was simply pointing out options at the players disposal and it cannot be denied that the counterspark can be used in combos.

Maybe like you said Oninomiru (not to speak for them) is coming from a combat optimization standpoint, but I'm coming from a place where all tolls have their place and purpose and I have found many cool combo routes using the counterspark as an attack or ender.

I also found out early on in these forums that most people discussiin the counterspark have no idea what the moves full function is and many still believe the entire move is a parry lol. Yet the function of the move is 2 fold: One as a parry and the other is an attack, which can be used and integrated within normal gameplay if you are decent at the games systems.

I tend to lean a bit in your direction, there seems to be a solid amount of skill expression in this game that I enjoy, and there’s no denying a high level of combat options

Now it’s not UNLIMITED expression that I think Nioh 2 is known for, because there’s no getting around defensive play. To me that’s a positive thing. To others it’s a reason to call this game trash and uninstall before reaching act 2

But at any given moment I can have 6 different attack strings with their own advancing, charge, and counterspark attack, with 24 total martial arts and the means to weave between all of it at will, which feels like a lot of options


I just can’t do each of those uninterrupted back to back

[Mike]

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Good point!

I was simply pointing out options at the players disposal and it cannot be denied that the counterspark can be used in combos.

Maybe like you said Oninomiru (not to speak for them) is coming from a combat optimization standpoint, but I'm coming from a place where all tolls have their place and purpose and I have found many cool combo routes using the counterspark as an attack or ender.

I also found out early on in these forums that most people discussiin the counterspark have no idea what the moves full function is and many still believe the entire move is a parry lol. Yet the function of the move is 2 fold: One as a parry and the other is an attack, which can be used and integrated within normal gameplay if you are decent at the games systems.

I tend to lean a bit in your direction, there seems to be a solid amount of skill expression in this game that I enjoy, and there’s no denying a high level of combat options

Now it’s not UNLIMITED expression that I think Nioh 2 is known for, because there’s no getting around defensive play. To me that’s a positive thing. To others it’s a reason to call this game trash and uninstall before reaching act 2

But at any given moment I can have 6 different attack strings with their own advancing, charge, and counterspark attack, with 24 total martial arts and the means to weave between all of it at will, which feels like a lot of options

I just can’t do each of those uninterrupted back to back

I mostly agree with you here. There is TONS of player expression in this game for those looking for it and thats even if you stick with one weapon, let alone switching between 2 with 3 styles a piece, 4 MA's per style adn the general weapons moveset.

I only really playing the bayonet and there are some crazy combo routes you can take if you master the hold attacks that transition into gun shots. You can literally make a Gun-kata playstyle out of that weapon kit alone if you put in the time lol. Now add the other 9 weapons on top of that and their styles (many of which have more then 4) and you cen make some crazy combinations that rival even Nioh 2 imo.

Its just like you said, you can't just steam roll bosses with combos like you can in Nioh 2 and you have to find the right place and right time to use your tools. I personally like BOTH playstyles where in Nioh your able to bully practically anything into submission with proper skill and understanding of the game, and in this game the enemy and player are basically in equal footing, so you need more finessing to get those openings and longer combos.

[ultimatelubu]

Първоначално публикувано от Mike:

Първоначално публикувано от ultimatelubu:

I tend to lean a bit in your direction, there seems to be a solid amount of skill expression in this game that I enjoy, and there’s no denying a high level of combat options

Now it’s not UNLIMITED expression that I think Nioh 2 is known for, because there’s no getting around defensive play. To me that’s a positive thing. To others it’s a reason to call this game trash and uninstall before reaching act 2

But at any given moment I can have 6 different attack strings with their own advancing, charge, and counterspark attack, with 24 total martial arts and the means to weave between all of it at will, which feels like a lot of options

I just can’t do each of those uninterrupted back to back

I mostly agree with you here. There is TONS of player expression in this game for those looking for it and thats even if you stick with one weapon, let alone switching between 2 with 3 styles a piece, 4 MA's per style adn the general weapons moveset.

I only really playing the bayonet and there are some crazy combo routes you can take if you master the hold attacks that transition into gun shots. You can literally make a Gun-kata playstyle out of that weapon kit alone if you put in the time lol. Now add the other 9 weapons on top of that and their styles (many of which have more then 4) and you cen make some crazy combinations that rival even Nioh 2 imo.

Its just like you said, you can't just steam roll bosses with combos like you can in Nioh 2 and you have to find the right place and right time to use your tools. I personally like BOTH playstyles where in Nioh your able to bully practically anything into submission with proper skill and understanding of the game, and in this game the enemy and player are basically in equal footing, so you need more finessing to get those openings and longer combos.

I forget about the amount of moves you can add a shot to with bayonet. Since I’m a dojo guy I’m more focused on martial art usage and optimal sequences. So stuff like that gets forgotten

Between the bayonets shots, and greatsword being able to charge literally any of its attacks, there’s a lot of options on top of everything mentioned. If there were more aerial options oxtail would also be crazier