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If it looked and ran better AND had bigger marketing budget it wouldn't be any worse than your usual Ubisoft game (while still outclassing all of them combined in terms of combat mechanics).
They just fumbled it hard on all fronts and then decided to cut their losses by not doing any DLCs or substantial fixes to how the game runs.
I actualy love their parry in both game (and SoP before endgame) and I hope they continue with it in their next games.
They manage to make parry way more aggressive than game like Sekiro or Khazan which end up with aggressive gameplay rather than simply dodge/block enemy attack pattern
I agree, they streamline stat/skill system ans I think this was a mistake. I think they should had rather double down on it than simplify it.
Mostly like stat/skill system, I think they should had double down on it too.
Actually, it was perfect in SoP imo but I see a lot of review pointing out the gear system in a bad way ("rainbow loot", "each enemy is a pinnata")
No true opinion on it. I like the stance system in this game tbh
I agree with some of your points and I disagree with some so let me touch on some of them:
++ Wo Long has tons of build variety and that is one of my favorite parts about that game. In Wo Long you can create so many unique builds with the weapon combinations, and element combinations that its insane. I have made a fire dual sword build, a pure Monk build that uses fist/staff weapons to combo enemies to death, and a tanky great hammer/earth build that can point guard through attacks instead of parrying,...etc.
++ Ronin also has tons of build diversity which is mostly in its weapon movesets and combining of styles to make a playstyle of your own. I made a gun slinger build that focuses on the bayonet, and I have not even touched the other weapon types with their own full movesets and styles.
-- I do agree that the overall skill tree was kind of boring in this game, but once again the builds came mostly from the gameplay and the weapon type you decided to choose not stats.
-- I agree that loot (stat wise) was the most boring and uninspired its ever been. In Nioh 1-2 it was only OK as loot/stats did not matter much until endgame difficulties. Strangers of Paradise had PEAK Team Ninja build/loot systems where stats meant the difference of doing NO damage to doing all the damage. Wo Long had ok loot but the full on crafting system is what really made me like that game as from the start you could tailor your build to the stats you wanted to. So imo they need to use Strangers of Paradise as their gold standard and iterate on that but many people would hate that because gear was more important then player skill in that game.
++ I personally like the style system more then the stance system just because you can have more styles then 3 fixed ones and you can customize them to some extent.
Overall I think Ronin was peak TN in terms of combat and story, but they did drop the ball on the loot and RPG systems around loot/gear, which was probably because of the games open world nature.
My dream TN game is they took the combat complexity and skill trees from Nioh 2, they took multiple styles per weapon from Ronin, they took the gear from Strangers, they took the gear crafting systems from Wo Long, and they give more love to hand to hand combat styles over weapon styles. Mix all that up and that would be my dream TN game that takes the best parts of all their games and meshes them together in one ultimate package.
Two, stop trying to "appeal to a wider audience" and stick to what you do best. It's funny and sad seeing a Korean dev make their first real game copying the entire Nioh formula 1 to 1 and immediately dwarfing Ronin in popularity.
Third, put some effort in other aspects of games and not just the 1v1 combat loop. I'm not asking for anything amazing, just something that's not terrible. This includes level design, world building, art direction, characters stories, enemy variety, and yes, graphics and optimisation.
Team Ninja is at rock bottom right now and only going by name recognition and good will of its established fan base. That won't last forever. Sooner or later people will just write them off if they keep releasing slop cashgrabs.
1. I agree that any company needs to stop yearly releases, but TN has done a good job at keeping their core audience because they still know how to make combat better then any dev out there. Nothing has been sacrificed in terms of the combat design and that is what matters most imo.
2. Where have they "appealed to wider audiences"? Last I checked Ronins Parry system has filtered so many people because of how challenging it is, that and the overall difficutly of this game is much higher then their last game (Wo Long) which was the easiest of their RPGs imo.
3. Most of the things you asked for were literally provided in THIS game lol. Ronin has an open world so linear level design is not an issue here. The character/story is better then it has ever been. They had a fully functional tag system in this game which evolves the "1v1 combat" you were talking about. Lastly while this game only had human enemies they had the most diverse movesets I have ever seen in any action RPG, there is not a single boss in this game that has similar movesets, so they nailed boss variety in this game.
4. TN is no where near "Rock bottom" and Ronin when it released sold better the the entire NIoh series lol. So maybe their games have been going down hill from your personal pov but sales and general TN players don't agree at all.
Maybe its time to realize that TN games are more then just Nioh or just don't buy their games anymore if you don't like them. I personally found each action RPG TN released after Nioh 1 to be unique and some of my favorite action games to release in years.
- Nioh series had the complex combat
- Strangers of paradise show the deepest Build and gameplay diversity TN has ever done to date.
- Wo Long went a more flashy but simple route with gameplay, with its own depth and mechanics.
- Rise of the Ronin is like a combination of Nioh, Wo Long and tons of new ideas that I honestly can't believe they put in the game (like the tag system).
I can respect your opinion but I disagree with about 99% of your assessment of TN games.
What happened was poor technical state, and reviews that did this game injustice. Because many reviewers didn't understood the combat and it's depth.
Good points. I remember on the offical launch (PS5) many reviewers were talking as if the combat was shallow and single button mashy, yet the reality is that in many ways its just as indepth and deep as the Nioh combat, its just different that needs time to get use to.
I also agree that TN's worst problem on PC is the technical state of their games as this has been an issue since Nioh 1.
Clarifying this point a bit - the initial sales pacing for Ronin was better than both Nioh games, not overall sales.
In terms of that so far, we can estimate that Ronin likely sold 1.5m+ copies, based on Koei Tecmo's official financial report data last year.
Steamdb owner estimations also put sales at around 135-162k so after a month.
https://www.reddit.com/r/riseoftheronin/comments/1iecdd8/ronin_did_not_meet_sales_expectations_but_neither/
Appreciate the clarification as those figures I was not aware of.
It still does not change my point that TN is still doing fine and that other guy just does not like TN games so they are going all doom and gloom as if every game since Nioh 2 was a failure.
Open world checklist. Collect 100 cats, collect 100 shrines, collect 100 chests. I was mentally checked out by the 20th cat. Open world is also non-reactive (issue with every combat focused game), but this is kinda expected for any game where only means of interaction is through weapon.
Stifled movement. Paraglider was pretty fun, horse auto ride is awesome. But general running and grappling hook being limited only to very specific places just doesn't work that well. Look at how Dying Light 2 handled on foot movement, grappling hook and paraglider. That's basically gold standard.
Combat degradation. Technically there is no strong attack. Only quick attack with 3 inputs that don't add much and 4 skills that are also fairly limited in application. Even with 3 styles it is just not enough input variety. You basically go XXX, X+Forward, X (hold), RB+X\Y\A\B. That's the entire combo.
Panic system is very flawed. You get into multi enemy fights and groups always have mixed styles. So you can panic one enemy and other 2 will attack you. You are forced into staredowns and parry spam.
Another issue is blade flash. Somehow worse version of ki pulse that barely restores ki. You also lose blood on block on top of losing ki on block. Double dipping penalty. Even tripple, considering you might want to blade flash and lose returns in ki there as well.
General ki management is pretty poorly tuned. Game ends up being way too passive and boils down to parry phishing with panic openings.
Another issue is styles. Advantage/disadvantage should have not been a thing, to facilitate more active style switching mid combat. Also style themselves are very limited with no customisation aside from 1 skill slot, yet all looks extremely similar, so just aren't very interesting to use.
Weapon identity is super weak too. Gone are unique gimmicks. GS has holds, oxtail has jump attacks, but in game neither feels unique or impactful like it was with previous Team Ninja games.
Another issue is inconsistency. Enemies have hyper armor for 85% of the time. If they had it for 100% of the time and would lose it only during panic, it would have been more consistent. But as it is, they can just instantly reset mid-stagger and retaliate. There is also no indication of when hyper armor is on or off. But that's general problem plaguing all Team Ninja games. They should work that out in the future.
A lot of boss fights are just boring and forgettable, since there is no magic or demons. All boils down to due with a katana, or a dude with a katana, or a dude with a katana, or a woman with a katana, or...
Both Wo Long and Nioh 2 have WAY better boss design than anything Ronin offers.
Loot system is the worst so far. I wish we could go back to times when sets actually changed gameplay loop like grace of Tsukuyomi/Marici in Nioh 2, or hell even Wo Long's Black Emperor grace. At least those change up gameplay a bit. Sets in Ronin is straight up inventory clogging material. +3% blood gauge set bonus. BRUH.
I will praise the fact counter spark is well designed. Putting stagger on the final hit instead of every hit is a good design.
Visuals are also pretty good (but not for hardware game demands). When I saw screenshots and videos, game looked like PS3 game, but it really is not the case when you actually play it. Some really nice scenery. Photo mode open world activity is probably the best part of the game just for that.
Story is also surprisingly decent, unlike usual stuff Team Ninja puts out.
Resource-wise Team Ninja has done better with Wo Long, having spirit system that is generative, instead of spending type.
And if we are talking parry\dodge, I think The First Berserker Khazan did it the best so far, by allowing players use both when appropriate (dodge for elemental attacks, parry for non-elemental ones, although you can still parry elemental attacks, just get inflicted with status).
SoP was straight heat. fantastic, wit a sick parry system too.
this games fire n the loot system is a big part. i see bigger number, i equip, i move on wit my life. i can wear any armor but cosmetically choose how i look. fire.
I'm not going to tackle every detailed point you made as it was a great write up even if I disagree with many things, but I do want to push back with your comment regarding combat technicality and combo structure.
As with most things its depends on the weapon type your talking about as for example I can tell you from experience that combos with the Bayonet are much more involved then the combo structure you laid out and its mostly because of the amount of hold commands and additional attacks normal attacks and Martial arts have.
Many of my combos with just this weapon type usually end up something like XX, X HOLD, RB+X/Y/A/B HOLD, style change attack, end with high KI damaging MA. This also varies ALOT depending on the combo route I want to take because this weapon offers many positional changes depending on the style and many of this weapons MA's have cancels that allow for a quick gun shot rather then doing the whole move.
You are literally ONLY talking about the surface level combos you can do with all weapon types but not when you get more specialized and comfortable with your weapons gimmick. If you master your specific weapon and find the best uses for its moves/MA's my combos can look completely different then your combos, as this games system allows for a lot of player freedom and expression.
Also the counter spark is BOTH a parry and a heavy attack (good KI damage on staggered enemies), that can be weaved into combos so its not a one trick type of move, it has multiple uses depending on said situation.
Your pushing this idea that the game locks the player in the specific combo route you brought up but that could not be further form the truth and I actually found just as much player expression in this games combat as I did in Nioh 2, and the only thing missing was more command normals for weapons that I do agree TN should go back to over this more simplified XXX combo starter.