My grievences about combat

[Aria Athena]

Parrying and Countersparking are fine on their own, but in Ronin these mechanics have not been tightly implemented. There are a ton of weapons, stances, combos, and hitboxes for the same actions, and it doesn't feel like they have all been properly tested. As a result, things keep failing. I am going to list my issues in no particular order, and then have Mike tell me how they are all user related errors. I am at the dojo now, and fighting all those bosses again on repeat really highlighted my problems.

1) The attacks are often very fast, the parry frames few, yet there is input delay. The combat is at the point where a couple of frames actually do count. This is very common btw, but in most games it becomes rarely an issue.

2) The red aura tells you an attack is unblockable, while obscuring the enemy's animations, and the flash tells you nothing consistently. Not when you should parry, not when the attack is about to hit and not when the attack is about to begin. To properly parry red attacks you have to follow the enemies' movement, as always, but now there is red aura in the way and an inconsistent flash to confuse you. I don't understand why it's implemented this way, when the flash's sole purpose is to show you when to parry. Of course people are having trouble understanding when to parry, they are following an inconsistent indicator.

3) Combos/animations are way too similar. They very often start with the same 2-3 attacks, and then split to up to 3 different combos, one of which requires instant parry follow up, and the others being delayed. Other combos start with almost the exact same animations, to the point someone said you are not supposed to know what they are doing. Some have the same attack twice, but one of them is faster. I am not just saying a few bosses have such a combo, I am saying most bosses have like 4 iterations of this. The tell sometimes comes down to literally a twist of the wrist, which is not even always visible cause of the

4) camera and lock-feature. You character locks-on the enemy, mostly, but the camera certainly doesn't. It kinda tries, I think. It doesn't even hold relative positions, or even the enemy on screen. Sometimes you character is obscuring the enemy, other times the enemy is on your left all of a sudden, while the camera keeps moving, somewhat trying to reposition. Meanwhile, that wrist you need to keep an eye on, to know if you should parry once or twice, is on the other side and not visible. I need to emphasize that you are locked-on, it's not like you can adjust it manually, unless you unlock and relock. You can always play without lock-on, tell me how that goes.

Also, the red flash the game expects you to pay attention to, sometimes happens off screen, cause the enemy jumped high in the air, with half of him out of screen, cause the camera didn't follow. During the first fight with the blade twin, she has a zig-zag charge attack, which half the time goes off screen as well.

On its own, this is a minor issue, cause in what game such as this the camera doesn't screw you occasionally? But the enemy is on your size, the combos similar, the animations subtle as ♥♥♥♥ and the parry frames few.

5) Enemies quite often miss you with their attacks, and you are left exposed during parry animation. This can happen in a few different ways, but one of them is mid-combo while in the boss' face. You go for the parry and you miss each other, even if you are in kissing distance. Needless to say, you get hit by the next attack in the combo. Shusaku Chiba is by far the worse culprit so far, the amount of times he misses is staggering. This is by far the worst issue for me, and I think it's insane it's in a game such as this. It's probably as I said, a ton of weapons, stances, combos, and hitboxes, and some miss-matches slipped through the cracks. Dual katanas btw, in case you are wondering.

6) Final issue, and again probably related to weapon/enemy combinations. After breaking their stance, sometimes the animation of the execution doesn't reach the enemy, you are locked in position, and usually miss the time frame. For example, Kimenzan, dual katanas, the execution starts with an upward strike with both blades, and sometimes doesn't reach him. You see the red circle, you press the button and you somehow fail. That's not as often, but against the enemies that it happens, it happens quite consistently.

Maybe I picked the weapon with the most hitbox issues.

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

I say upload them and share

Sure thing. Added a few of the latest ones so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E1y78yVoGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4o1-K2PgiY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVpvDy_yIho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-lNmvDpat8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7p8itlF4Iw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItttnxvOx-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8d1TpgRnoI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_1gb_pmsxA

These aren’t bad, what exactly are your complaints?

[Voxman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

These aren’t bad, what exactly are your complaints?

Someone above brought up a skill issue, saying that people criticize the game because they can't master the mechanics of the game.

That's clearly not my case. And I've experienced the same thing as OP.

My complaint is that it makes the game more difficult in a bad way.

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

These aren’t bad, what exactly are your complaints?

Someone above brought up a skill issue, saying that people criticize the game because they can't master the mechanics of the game.

That's clearly not my case. And I've experienced the same thing as OP.

My complaint is that it makes the game more difficult in a bad way.

Ah ok…although I wouldn’t say youve mastered the mechanics, you’ve got basics though


Regarding the OP though, some of it is still a skill issue based on timing, button input, and spacing

The camera thing is definitely an issue especially near walls

Enemies missing, causing a whiffed CS that forces you to eat is absolutely an annoying thing that happens, but it’s again related to spacing and how tight hitboxes actually can be in this game. Sometimes if you aren’t moving towards an enemy as you deflect, eventually you’ll get pushed back enough that an attack will whiff. This is a bigger issue with longer weapon enemies since you can be further away and still counterspark, until you can’t

It’s reasonably to complain about them, but it’s also not an insurmountable issue

[Voxman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Ah ok…although I wouldn’t say youve mastered the mechanics, you’ve got basics though

These are peculiarities of translation from one language to another. I use the word “освоить” - i.e. acquire skill in something, but the translator uses the word “master” for it.

I'm not sure I'm missing any advanced elements of the mechanics though.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Regarding the OP though, some of it is still a skill issue based on timing, button input, and spacing

The camera thing is definitely an issue especially near walls

Enemies missing, causing a whiffed CS that forces you to eat is absolutely an annoying thing that happens, but it’s again related to spacing and how tight hitboxes actually can be in this game. Sometimes if you aren’t moving towards an enemy as you deflect, eventually you’ll get pushed back enough that an attack will whiff. This is a bigger issue with longer weapon enemies since you can be further away and still counterspark, until you can’t

It’s reasonably to complain about them, but it’s also not an insurmountable issue

Sure, it's surmountable. But will the average player overcome it?

It wouldn't hurt anyone if some of the timings and signals of non-blockable attacks were better matched to the animations and made not so narrow.

It's about Benkei and his lance rotation, right? Otherwise, it's mostly air MAs that miss.

[chmeee]

The only thing I can relate to is number 4. Especially at the dojo I sometimes got killed because I could only see the walls.

When it comes to parrying, I havent experienced any of your problems. I think of myself as a decent souls-like player and as such I parry like 90% attacks of non-bosses and somewhere around 70% boss moves. Only Genzui Kasuka gives me a REALLY hard time in the dojo - havent achieved master rank against him yet.

Also, no perceivable input lag here. Do you guys use DLSS, FrameGen or anything? I read somewhere it raises input lag.

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh chmeee:

The only thing I can relate to is number 4. Especially at the dojo I sometimes got killed because I could only see the walls.

When it comes to parrying, I havent experienced any of your problems. I think of myself as a decent souls-like player and as such I parry like 90% attacks of non-bosses and somewhere around 70% boss moves. Only Genzui Kasuka gives me a REALLY hard time in the dojo - havent achieved master rank against him yet.

Also, no perceivable input lag here. Do you guys use DLSS, FrameGen or anything? I read somewhere it raises input lag.

I think my parrying issues are very dependent on weapon and style used. I believe that most of the time, it is the parry animation which changes my hitboxes and causes attacks to miss. It's not like they miss me if I stand still, unless they use a jump attack of course.

As for input lag, it's possible you do not notice it, it's only a few frames. It's in many games, Souls ones included. There were a couple of discussions in Elden Ring, and the people were kinda split in the middle. But no, I am not using DLSS, cause due to slow down issues, I had to cap the game to 30 fps anyway.

I've found recently that quite a few people do not like Genzui. He was one the easiest for me, cause he both is aggressive and keeps interrupting your attacks with double red attacks. Those are both very appreciated qualities to have as a dojo opponent. The guy I had the most issue with, was I think some dude with a spear that keeps jumping behind you, while also stepping on your toes. I am talking about the master of chip damage. I stopped playing a bit after Act 2 though, so I have only mastered the fights up to that point.

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Ah ok…although I wouldn’t say youve mastered the mechanics, you’ve got basics though

These are peculiarities of translation from one language to another. I use the word “освоить” - i.e. acquire skill in something, but the translator uses the word “master” for it.

I'm not sure I'm missing any advanced elements of the mechanics though.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Regarding the OP though, some of it is still a skill issue based on timing, button input, and spacing

The camera thing is definitely an issue especially near walls

Enemies missing, causing a whiffed CS that forces you to eat is absolutely an annoying thing that happens, but it’s again related to spacing and how tight hitboxes actually can be in this game. Sometimes if you aren’t moving towards an enemy as you deflect, eventually you’ll get pushed back enough that an attack will whiff. This is a bigger issue with longer weapon enemies since you can be further away and still counterspark, until you can’t

It’s reasonably to complain about them, but it’s also not an insurmountable issue

Sure, it's surmountable. But will the average player overcome it?

It wouldn't hurt anyone if some of the timings and signals of non-blockable attacks were better matched to the animations and made not so narrow.

It's about Benkei and his lance rotation, right? Otherwise, it's mostly air MAs that miss.

The videos I watched had no stance changes, or martial arts chaining. Also you have a tendency post counterspark to do normal attacks and end on a martial art when panic ends so it ends up blocked. Unless you’re deliberately doing this to land a blocked blow for ki damage it’s sort of backwards for what’s better for damage. Like I said you have the basics down really well (block hits, CS the final hit, retaliate) but you’re missing a chunk of depth


As for the average gamer? Maybe not, but I don’t think TNs games have ever been made for the average gamer

[Voxman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

The videos I watched had no stance changes...

I rarely change stances and weapons. In Nioh, I used to change my stance during battle to break Oni horns. Changed before a battle with a fast opponent to a lower one, like with Yuki-onna. Could prolong the combination by switching from katana to odachi or spear and doing a swing. But not much more than that. I can't call myself an enthusiast of that style of play.

There are few boss battles in RotR where it is necessary in terms of game mechanics.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

The videos I watched had no ... martial arts chaining.

I have a psychological block on MA spamming since Elden Ring. It's considered bad manners there. /s

I really have a hard time seeing MA as anything other than finishers of normal attack sequences, a means to increase or break distance and a replacement for a critical attack.

Not that I'm good at combining MAs.

Like in the video? Or is there some “hidden” mechanics involved here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pImgCj0MMUo

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

As for the average gamer? Maybe not, but I don’t think TNs games have ever been made for the average gamer

They also made Nioh 2 more accessible, and in RotR we have an open world, allies, and a difficulty selection.

Of course they want to make more money, and they couldn't help but notice the success of the more newbie-friendly Elden Ring (and I pray they overlook Nightrein and Duskblood because FS took a wrong turn).

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

The videos I watched had no stance changes...

I rarely change stances and weapons. In Nioh, I used to change my stance during battle to break Oni horns. Changed before a battle with a fast opponent to a lower one, like with Yuki-onna. Could prolong the combination by switching from katana to odachi or spear and doing a swing. But not much more than that. I can't call myself an enthusiast of that style of play.

There are few boss battles in RotR where it is necessary in terms of game mechanics.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

The videos I watched had no ... martial arts chaining.

I have a psychological block on MA spamming since Elden Ring. It's considered bad manners there. /s

I really have a hard time seeing MA as anything other than finishers of normal attack sequences, a means to increase or break distance and a replacement for a critical attack.

Not that I'm good at combining MAs.

Like in the video? Or is there some “hidden” mechanics involved here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pImgCj0MMUo

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

As for the average gamer? Maybe not, but I don’t think TNs games have ever been made for the average gamer

They also made Nioh 2 more accessible, and in RotR we have an open world, allies, and a difficulty selection.

Of course they want to make more money, and they couldn't help but notice the success of the more newbie-friendly Elden Ring (and I pray they overlook Nightrein and Duskblood because FS took a wrong turn).

Stance changing here lets you chain martial arts from different styles into a seamless combo since you can cancel the actual animation of a violent gale or flash attack with one

And no. What you’re doing on Katsu is a martial art that either crits or knocks them down (Nozuchi drop) and then while they’re still down you’re doing either the Mumyo spin art or the Yagyu veiled art as a wake up, I wouldn’t call this chaining by any means

If you have that view of martial arts then you’re taking a limited approach to the combat mechanics

Yes the game doesn’t REQUIRE it, because you can just deflect-attack until crit, and repeat till death. But using primarily arts one, requires more skill and input, and two is higher risk requiring you to understand the timing of the attacks and panic length to pull it off without getting smacked in the face. Normal attacks can be canceled at any time for a counterspark so they’re very “safe” to use, and the arts you are using are very low commitment even if you use it at the end of the chain, and especially as a wake up

Using arts is higher risk/reward, you’ll do more damage faster with them, but if you ♥♥♥♥ up your gonna get hit

[Voxman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

If you have that view of martial arts then you’re taking a limited approach to the combat mechanics

Can you show your approach on a battle with Blade Twin (Dual blades) in dojo on Twilight\Midnight?

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

If you have that view of martial arts then you’re taking a limited approach to the combat mechanics

Can you show your approach on a battle with Blade Twin (Dual blades) in dojo on Twilight\Midnight?

I haven’t yet gotten to that fight on my pc journey, but tomorrow I can skip ahead to it. Do you want a meta dojo leaderboard run? Or just a demo of the chaining

Edit: if it’s just the latter, this might work as a general example https://youtu.be/27yjl7Wfpbo?si=-Z_3nUrsCxSxnm67

If was an effort to cosplay as Okita and use the moves he uses against you when you fight him. With the exception of a a normal attack to violent gale at the beginning for the Prodigious Dragon bonus, I use zero regular attacks, only martial arts

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aria Athena:

3) Combos/animations are way too similar. They very often start with the same 2-3 attacks, and then split to up to 3 different combos, one of which requires instant parry follow up, and the others being delayed. Other combos start with almost the exact same animations, to the point someone said you are not supposed to know what they are doing. Some have the same attack twice, but one of them is faster. I am not just saying a few bosses have such a combo, I am saying most bosses have like 4 iterations of this. The tell sometimes comes down to literally a twist of the wrist, which is not even always visible cause of the

Just wanna circle back to this point, it makes sense if you consider what YOU can do as a player. How many different things can you do after two normal attacks?

4 different martial arts
Charge attack
Advancing attack
Counterspark as an attack
A third normal attack
Dodge
Violent gale/flash attack

It makes sense that enemies who operate at least under similar ideas, can do 2-3 normal attacks and then branch off to something different

[Voxman]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Do you want a meta dojo leaderboard run?

Thanks, I've seen enough. My motor skills and reaction time won't allow me to reliably use this approach. I have enough frustration with not being able to parry some unblockable attacks on a consistent basis.

Maybe I'll try some of the easier stuff for odachi.

[ultimatelubu]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Voxman:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Do you want a meta dojo leaderboard run?

Thanks, I've seen enough. My motor skills and reaction time won't allow me to reliably use this approach. I have enough frustration with not being able to parry some unblockable attacks on a consistent basis.

Maybe I'll try some of the easier stuff for odachi.

Honestly I felt the exact same way when I started, played up to midnight only doing once stance at a time, did all the dojo fights as a mirror so just one stance as well. Eventually though things get stale and I would’ve burned out and quit if I didn’t start experimenting and trying in earnest. It’s why I harp on it for newer players, it’s very much worth it to engage with the stance dance as soon as possible from a fun standpoint

[Aria Athena]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ultimatelubu:

Just wanna circle back to this point, it makes sense if you consider what YOU can do as a player. How many different things can you do after two normal attacks?

Unlike the computer, I don't read inputs, I read visual queues, and the game does a poor job indicating to the player what the enemy is doing. Splitting the combos on in its own is not an issue. The problem is when the animations are too similar regardless of the follow up, or when one of the possible follow ups is instant, while the others delayed. Or both. Input delay and the camera not being centered, both come into play here. Even the first attack is not safe from this, Ii's tell is literally how he positions his wrist when grabbing the sword, first time in my life when I thought my monitor was too small. Then in phase 2, the camera zooms out... If he moves to your left, you can no longer see his hand. Most named enemies have 2-3 few examples of this.

Take Genzui for example, who has been mentioned a bunch, and is the only other guy whose name I remember. Does't have this issue at all. You can always tell what he is about to do. Other examples are a guy with a two handed sword who has his own dojo arena, will have to look him up, and the shogun. The dude with the shield is also a good example. Enemies with well defined animations, where I don't have to strain my eyes to read micro-mannerisms, put the rest of the mini-bosses to shame. I ended up learning to dodge, and not parry, any attack that puts effects on my swords, especially fire, causes it obscures those mannerisms too much. This was not even remotely an issue in previous TN games.