Difficulty

[MaChao]

Is it just me or this this game *significantly* more difficult than any of their other soulslikes?
Stamina usage is pretty high, enemy aggressiveness is super high, especially with their unblockables.

I find the onboarding experience pretty hostile and unfun so far :/

[FlintX]

Seems like every action RPG, action game, and even non arena 3D fighting games are becoming soulslike this days. Simple because they feature some sort of stamina system that in most cases is only in place to prevent the player from spaming some move over and over and rick roll through the entire game with no effort.

[Sekiro isn't a soulslike by the way. Is an action game that borrow soulslike elements. That possible was only borrowed to cater to the souslike audience and the Fromsoftware fans there were waiting for a new game in the genre from the studio]

[MaChao]

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

Seems like every action RPG, action game, and even non arena 3D fighting games are becoming soulslike this days. Simple because they feature some sort of stamina system that in most cases is only in place to prevent the player from spaming some move over and over and rick roll through the entire game with no effort.

[Sekiro isn't a soulslike by the way. Is an action game that borrow soulslike elements. That possible was only borrowed to cater to the souslike audience and the Fromsoftware fans there were waiting for a new game in the genre from the studio]

-Deterministic, stamina based combat system
-Checkpoint system with respawning enemies
-Enemy / item placement is fully deterministic
-Resource loss on death with temporary recovery mechanicss

It's a bit more than "just stamina" that these games have in common with a now very clearly defined action RPG sub-genre.

[FlintX]

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

-Deterministic, stamina based combat system
-Checkpoint system with respawning enemies
-Enemy / item placement is fully deterministic
-Resource loss on death with temporary recovery mechanicss

It's a bit more than "just stamina" that these games have in common with a now very clearly defined action RPG sub-genre.

Yet none of those mechanics were invented by Demon's Souls. The were all put together as part of the game design. Souslike isn't a genre. Is a label.

[Thine Very Own, Nemesis~]

I just think that it's the control scheme that makes it difficult
try adjusting things around it might help

[MaChao]

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

-Deterministic, stamina based combat system
-Checkpoint system with respawning enemies
-Enemy / item placement is fully deterministic
-Resource loss on death with temporary recovery mechanicss

It's a bit more than "just stamina" that these games have in common with a now very clearly defined action RPG sub-genre.

Yet none of those mechanics were invented by Demon's Souls. The were all put together as part of the game design. Souslike isn't a genre. Is a label.

"Souslike isn't a genre. Is a label" -.-
Yes,,,like every single other "genre" as well... that's how labels work...

No one game will ever truly, 100% fit another in a "genre".
Genres are labels you apply to things to get a vague understanding of it at a glimpse.

Mario and Sonic are fundamentally different games with vastly different design philosophies and yet, "2D Platformer" describes them both well enough to get an idea.

Same here. RotR has *much* more in common with any "Soulslike" than it has with character action games such as DMC or Ninja Gaiden or with Ubisoft-Template open world games.

[Mike]

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

Yet none of those mechanics were invented by Demon's Souls. The were all put together as part of the game design. Souslike isn't a genre. Is a label.

"Souslike isn't a genre. Is a label" -.-
Yes,,,like every single other "genre" as well... that's how labels work...

No one game will ever truly, 100% fit another in a "genre".
Genres are labels you apply to things to get a vague understanding of it at a glimpse.

Mario and Sonic are fundamentally different games with vastly different design philosophies and yet, "2D Platformer" describes them both well enough to get an idea.

Same here. RotR has *much* more in common with any "Soulslike" than it has with character action games such as DMC or Ninja Gaiden or with Ubisoft-Template open world games.

Souls-like is in fact a genre at this point, but its a SUB-genre of the action RPG genre. Just like how a Mteroidvanina is a sub genre of the platformer genre,...etc,...etc.

Rise of the Ronin is a open world Action RPG through and through and NOTHING in its design reminds me of a Souls-like. Respawing enemies has been done in open world games long before a souls game came along, check points (or bonfires) has been on open world games long before a soul game,...etc,...etc.

Souls games live rent free in so many peoples minds that they seem to have short term memory about gameplay systems and mechanics that were already here BEFORE those games got popular.

The first 2 souls game defined what a souls like is and that definition is very clear. It is slow weighty combat (high risk, high reward), linear but interconnected game world design, Lore told through environment and item descriptions, heavy focus on reaction heavy boss fights, pre defined loot that is specifically placed in the world (no RNG loot drops), simple RPG leveling mechanics that is obtained through using souls of fallen enemies,...etc.

RoTR has nearly NONE of those systems that define what a souls like is, so even the idea of comparing the 2 in insane.

[I am Groot]

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

Kashra Fall님이 먼저 게시:

I'm pretty used to wo long's parry system, so it feels easier to me. Block what you can, parry the rest, be sure to clean your blade and don't over commit to combos. You WILL get punished in this game for over extending those combos haha.

I think what trips me up is that parry is an attack with significant windup and even longer recovery compared to a guard.
Personally, i think that Wo Long's parry system felt significantly better to use.
And with how high the stamina usage is in general, guarding doesn't feel too comfortable either. It's a high risk, little reward system.

As far as weapon cleaning etc. Sure, basic Nioh stuff. It's Ki Pulse has been hardcoded into my muscle memory :D

I'm sure that changes throughout the game, when more options are unlocked etc.
But like i said, i find the onboarding experience extremely hostile and unpleasant.

And dodging is next to useless as 90% the time the hit follows you...

[Yummynomnom]

I am Groot님이 먼저 게시:

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

I think what trips me up is that parry is an attack with significant windup and even longer recovery compared to a guard.
Personally, i think that Wo Long's parry system felt significantly better to use.
And with how high the stamina usage is in general, guarding doesn't feel too comfortable either. It's a high risk, little reward system.

As far as weapon cleaning etc. Sure, basic Nioh stuff. It's Ki Pulse has been hardcoded into my muscle memory :D

I'm sure that changes throughout the game, when more options are unlocked etc.
But like i said, i find the onboarding experience extremely hostile and unpleasant.

And dodging is next to useless as 90% the time the hit follows you...

you dont dodge you run. yeah i agree dodging is really useless

[Kashra Fall]

I am Groot님이 먼저 게시:

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

I think what trips me up is that parry is an attack with significant windup and even longer recovery compared to a guard.
Personally, i think that Wo Long's parry system felt significantly better to use.
And with how high the stamina usage is in general, guarding doesn't feel too comfortable either. It's a high risk, little reward system.

As far as weapon cleaning etc. Sure, basic Nioh stuff. It's Ki Pulse has been hardcoded into my muscle memory :D

I'm sure that changes throughout the game, when more options are unlocked etc.
But like i said, i find the onboarding experience extremely hostile and unpleasant.

And dodging is next to useless as 90% the time the hit follows you...

Dodge definitely isn't useless, you just have to time it properly. Some attacks only work from a dodge (Activation.) for instance.

[FlintX]

Mike님이 먼저 게시:

Souls-like is in fact a genre at this point, but its a SUB-genre of the action RPG genre. Just like how a Mteroidvanina is a sub genre of the platformer genre,...etc,...etc.

Rise of the Ronin is a open world Action RPG through and through and NOTHING in its design reminds me of a Souls-like. Respawing enemies has been done in open world games long before a souls game came along, check points (or bonfires) has been on open world games long before a soul game,...etc,...etc.

Souls games live rent free in so many peoples minds that they seem to have short term memory about gameplay systems and mechanics that were already here BEFORE those games got popular.

The first 2 souls game defined what a souls like is and that definition is very clear. It is slow weighty combat (high risk, high reward), linear but interconnected game world design, Lore told through environment and item descriptions, heavy focus on reaction heavy boss fights, pre defined loot that is specifically placed in the world (no RNG loot drops), simple RPG leveling mechanics that is obtained through using souls of fallen enemies,...etc.

RoTR has nearly NONE of those systems that define what a souls like is, so even the idea of comparing the 2 in insane.

And funny enough a lot of the core soulslike gameplay mechanics wasn't put together for the first time in Demon's Souls for it to be considered an original enough ideia.

Games from the PS2 era like Dark Cloud (1 and 2), which is also a action RPG, already featured mechanics like breakable weapons and stamina bar together. It also featured a dungeon system that reseted/respawned all the enemies every time you went back to town to safely store what you got in the dungeon.
And guess what? If you leave the dungeon before completing a set amount of floors to make a checkpoint in which you can continue the dungeon from that floor onward, you would have to begin from the start of that specific floor set of levels and climb them again.
And guess what more? You can only save the game in town, so If you died before being able to complete a level or the floor, you would lose everything you collected and would need to reload the save. And since the only way to go back to town is either by clearing all mobs in a level or by using a consumable item that is costly at the beginning of the game, you either would end up progressing through the entire floor to save time and resources and risk losing everything on a difficulty level fight or boss, or went the safe and very painful slow way of advance through the game. Going back to town everytime you bump into a piece of item needed to upgrade and rebuild buildings of the town, which is essential to progress through the game story.

You have that gladiator simulator game, also from PS2, called Colosseum: Road to Freedom. (which I personally think is still the best gladiator game around up to this day, since I've never seen any other gladiator game that mimics its mechanics and pleasing gameplay). Which is also an arena action RPG, with stats parameters, breakeable gear, and stamina system.

Elaborated and interconnected level design similar to DS1 isn't that much unique either. Prince of Persia Warrior Within from PS2 did something close before it.

Onimusha games always had soul absorption mechanics that you would get by killing enemies, and that you could store and use later to upgrade you character and equipment.

Methodical 1v1 combat also have been since PS1/PS2 games, or even older. Tenchu, Way of Samurai, etc

Stamina bars by itself is not even worth mentioning in dept as it is around since Super Nintendo or even older games. Soccer games pretty much always had them. Mortal Kombat 3 has them. Secret of Mana/Evermore had that % charge bar in which you would only do decent damage if it was at 100%.

In sum Miyazaki is not a pioneer of anything. He is just a guy who thinks that putting ambiguous text into item descriptions makes a rich storytelling. Hell, even Kojima who is a one trick dog has more merits than him, by estabilishing many of the stealth elements on stealth games, and pretty much being the one responsible for setting the standards of how cinematics and cutscenes are handled for storytelling in the modern gaming industry standards.

[MaChao]

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

And funny enough a lot of the core soulslike gameplay mechanics wasn't put together for the first time in Demon's Souls for it to be considered an original enough ideia.

Games from the PS2 era like Dark Cloud (1 and 2), which is also a action RPG, already featured mechanics like breakable weapons and stamina bar together. It also featured a dungeon system that reseted/respawned all the enemies every time you went back to town to safely store what you got in the dungeon.

"Respawning enemies" isn't the point, respawning enemies with deterministic placement is. Dark Cloud is a Dungeon Crawler. It differentiates itself by going for randomization instead of deterministic placements.

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

And guess what? If you leave the dungeon before completing a set amount of floors to make a checkpoint in which you can continue the dungeon from that floor onward, you would have to begin from the start of that specific floor set of levels and climb them again.

You can select what floor you start on, you don't have checkpoints in a persistent, deterministic environment. Again, completely different functionalities.

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

And guess what more? You can only save the game in town, so If you died before being able to complete a level or the floor, you would lose everything you collected and would need to reload the save. And since the only way to go back to town is either by clearing all mobs in a level or by using a consumable item that is costly at the beginning of the game, you either would end up progressing through the entire floor to save time and resources and risk losing everything on a difficulty level fight or boss, or went the safe and very painful slow way of advance through the game. Going back to town everytime you bump into a piece of item needed to upgrade and rebuild buildings of the town, which is essential to progress through the game story.

Apples and oranges.
A game over that kicks you to the title screen has nothing in common with a mechanic that costs you resources on death that you then can retrieve if you reach them without dying again. Again, completely diffetent things.

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

You have that gladiator simulator game, also from PS2, called Colosseum: Road to Freedom. (which I personally think is still the best gladiator game around up to this day, since I've never seen any other gladiator game that mimics its mechanics and pleasing gameplay). Which is also an arena action RPG, with stats parameters, breakeable gear, and stamina system.

Elaborated and interconnected level design similar to DS1 isn't that much unique either. Prince of Persia Warrior Within from PS2 did something close before it.

Onimusha games always had soul absorption mechanics that you would get by killing enemies, and that you could store and use later to upgrade you character and equipment.

Now you just list random games that maaaaybe share a single aspect in common...completely irrelevant.

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

Methodical 1v1 combat also have been since PS1/PS2 games, or even older. Tenchu, Way of Samurai, etc

Stamina bars by itself is not even worth mentioning in dept as it is around since Super Nintendo or even older games. Soccer games pretty much always had them. Mortal Kombat 3 has them. Secret of Mana/Evermore had that % charge bar in which you would only do decent damage if it was at 100%.

And no one talked about a single aspect making a game a genre contender, that's not how genre work...

FlintX님이 먼저 게시:

In sum Miyazaki is not a pioneer of anything. He is just a guy who thinks that putting ambiguous text into item descriptions makes a rich storytelling. Hell, even Kojima who is a one trick dog has more merits than him, by estabilishing many of the stealth elements on stealth games, and pretty much being the one responsible for setting the standards of how cinematics and cutscenes are handled for storytelling in the modern gaming industry standards.

And nobody argued that these games pioneered anything.
Again, that's simply not how (sub-)genres work.
Rogue didn't invent RPG elements, randomised dungeons, permadeath etc.
It was the distinct combination of elements that created the sub-genre of Roguelikes.
And the same goes for soulslike.
It's not one or the other, it's the combination of many elements all these games have in common that defines them.

[illage2]

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

Is it just me or this this game *significantly* more difficult than any of their other soulslikes?
Stamina usage is pretty high, enemy aggressiveness is super high, especially with their unblockables.

I find the onboarding experience pretty hostile and unfun so far :/

It's not a souls like, unless your playing on Nightmare mode which is only unlocked once you've beaten the story.

[n1lknarf]

If you're struggling to play this glorified quicktime event combat system then just quit gaming bruh.

Just press 1 button when the game prompts you to, and then press another button when the game allows you to. You can even cancel attacks with parries so it's impossible to get punished.

[FlintX]

MaChao님이 먼저 게시:

Apples and oranges.

I fail to see how this is any different from what you doing here. Putting Rise of the Ronin in the soulslike classification just because it shares similar mechanics, yet differentiates in many others.

Rise of the Ronin combat is much faster and require way more precision and complex input combinations than the average soulslike, considering the core combat mechanics estabilished by Demons's/Dark Souls.
Yes, it has stamina bar. Yes, it has fast attack, strong/charged attack, parrying, hard lock on to single targets, etc. Yet it plays nothing like the basis that originated this "subgenre" of action RPG you call. It has stance swap, etc. Oranges and apples.

Souslike has "Respawning enemies" with "deterministic placements." And so does Zelda Breath of the Wild. Everytime you go through a blood moon enemies will spawn back where they were. Does it make it a souslike too? Save by the stalvos, lizards, slimes and bats random encounters, and all the animated NPCs and populated villages with clocked routines, which Miyazaki failed to copy to create a live world, everything else will be always there on the same spot.

Is Elden Ring a "Breath of the Wild like" because you explore the big open world on horseback, collect resources for cooking and enemies respawn on the same spot everytime you rest huh? Apples and oranges anyone?
I bet this sounds equally stupid for you. Despiste devs themselves saying they took "inspiration" (read: straight up copied mechanics from Breath of the Wild). Same way as Nioh, Rise of Ronin copied many mechanics of the "souls genre." How about we just call it "Assassin's Souslike" by now and create a new "subgenre" huh?

Just because games shares a lot of similar mechanics doesn't mean they part of same "genre". The only thing those game has in common is that they are action RPGs that evolved by compying mechanics from each other.

[Nic-The-Hero]

This game isn't a soulslike so idk why you keep calling it that. Most soulslikes aren't difficult either, its just knowledge checks and patience, not really much mechanical skill involved.