Change-of-address: Valheim to Len's Island!

[HangarPilot]

I've been loving Valheim (about 1500 hours) as my go-to game. Sadly, Valheim seems to be moving in a hard-core, "brutal," direction which is alienating a good portion of the player base.

I didn't want to hijack another poster's thread, but did want to offer some perspective on what (for me) is the "secret sauce" Valheim HAD and would love to see in Len's Island.

The "secret sauce" to me is the ability to "get lost" in a game and lose track of time. There are a few components to that im my opinion:

1) Visual style (CHECK) - Len's is beautiful and easy on the eyes. I can generally figure out what is pickable and what is decoration and I don't have to scrutinize each pixel. The UI is functional and not intrusive.

2) Low stress (CHECK) - I want to feel "safe" at home gardening (no "base raids") but be able to go adventuring. I want to be challenged but not "stressed out" that death lurks behind every corner. Casual play is allowed and encourage (vs certain games that will no longer be named that seem bent on not allowing any difficulty settings at all). The fact that you are already teasing a hardcore and creative mode says you know this game appeals to different types of players and are embracing that.

3) Collecting (CHECK-ish) - There's some perverse satisfaction that comes from chopping trees, mining, collecting coins/mushrooms/etc. It's very present in Len's but just a touch lackluster. Let me explain. We don't necessarily need "more" collectibles but rather some sense of meaning to "why" we are collecting. Sure, natural instinct is to collect everything you can ... but why am I collecting mushrooms or shards? What do I do with them? You eventually figure it out but that is no where near as satisfying as, say, another game and when you pick up a mushroom for the first time you get some pop-up that says you "unlocked" mushroom stew. I already made another post about the "nerd stats" of food being needed, so I won't rehash the subject. But that's another "fuzzy" area with the collectibles. I can pick (and/or farm) pumpkins ... why? Are they a "better" choice than blueberries? How do I parse out the fact that they provide more HP/Hunger but take longer to eat? Is there a clear food progression that you farm X just until you find Y and then you start farming/eating that? Is there value in "cooking" or is it just for play variety? That is, is "pumpkin pie" worth all the extra effort vs spamming plain pumpkin? Just a general lack of guidance/understanding. My backpack got "full" of dark essence before I could find a use for it. Do I sell it? Again, "why" am I collecting it and what can I use it for? Why all them empty boxes? Cave after cave has crates that fall apart when you walk over them but they are all empty. Placeholders? Does "loot" differ map seed to map seed or is it just island placement? (Side note: I heard on the launch stream that the "name" is the map seed but that is actually not communicated in the game... if a new player plays a second time using the same name they would get the same map? And then promptly think the "procedural generation" is poor?)

4) Progression (could use a some love) - It is unclear to me if Len's is meant to be a "just figure it out for yourself game" or if the lore/story/guidance/tutorials are just not present yet. But I'm a little fuzzy on what I'm "supposed" to be doing? Should I be upgrading the town? Workbench? Backpack? House? Is there a reason to upgrade a wood house to stone other than you feel like it? What "should" my priorities be? The game starts and I'm on this island - why? A cave is highlighted on my map - why? You certainly don't want to overdo the "hand-holding" but a little more backstory and setup would go a long way. Maybe talk to the mayor and he explains that I'm welcome to the island and can build a house, etc. Maybe he asks for help with a local cave and explains what problems it is causing (and then it appears on the map). I like what you did with the blacksmith (rescue him, get a "gift"). A reward from the mayor after each town upgrade (cash, a blueprint) would help "motivate" player progression. Which brings me to...

5) Immersion (could use some love) - For me, "immersion" comes from getting "invested" in a character. It's not enough to just go chop trees for a while, then go sailing for a while, then go spelunking for a while... These are all fine and fun activities but if you can put them in the context of a bigger story ... then I know WHY I should go exploring. Is there anything to be gained by exploring the "other" islands on that map that don't have boss caves or keystones? I don't know. (Again, maybe a NPC could offer some "advice" here.) Why am I taking down these bosses? I'm pretty sure from some comments on the launch stream more story/lore is coming so all of this may already be in work. But as a new player right now, you kind of have to read the Steam store page closely or watch a video or two to figure out what you're supposed to do.

Yes, the game is EA which means "not done" and a lot of this may already be on your list. I didn't bother to bring up performance issues. Screen tearing or FPS jitters or whatever can "break immersion" ... but I know that will all come in time.

What I really hoped to convey here is my take on the "new player experience." I think it's easy for devs or kickstarter backers to lose sight of what it means to come into the game completely cold. They may understand the "intended progression" or how the game elements tie together because they've been a part of the development process all along.

As a new player (about 35 hours so far ... and owned the game less than a week! ) this is what I find "fuzzy" about the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying the game. It's a "good" game as-is. Fixing the "technical issues" and finishing the game will make it "really good" ... but I sincerely hope you find that "secret sauce" recipe and it becomes a "great game" players can sink hundreds of hours into and never tire of it!

Merry Christmas. Hope you get a chance for a break after all the hard work!

[Rallianto]

+1 Agree on pretty much anything you wrote.

1) Yep

2) Yes the balance between chill/low stress and then risk/reward in the dungeons is perfect. Sometimes you want to chill, farm a bit, expand the house, etc., and you can do that. Sometimes you want your heart beating and risk and find treasures, and you can do that. In Valheim you have base raid's which I never were a fan of, and result in digging out a moat around your house on every single play through.

3) Spot on. In Valheim, when farming an unknown resource for the first time, a pop-up appears (is satisfactory on it's own) telling you, you unlocked something. If we have like a list of receipies, but they were all "greyed out" or "locked" until you find all the needed resources, now we have a reason to go out and find mushrooms and other resources, and everytime we find a new one, it feels like we accomplished something.

4) Spot on, and a difficult subject. One thing, it's still early access, we simply don't know. Another thing, too much handholding destroys immersion and sense of exploration. It's a difficult fine balance.

5) Yep - The devs have said they are not focusing on the narrative yet, which would probably solve this, so let's see where it goes.

[Rasip]

Valheim started out hardcore and brutal. It got worse?

[Pepe_Le_Pede]

also +1 agree on pretty much everything you said.

Not sure if this is doable/worth it for dev but I liked the way that MoE does different quality seeds/crops you sow/harvest. It's satisfying to work so hard growing the lowest tier crops to work your way up to premium crops.

I do like the idea of having quests/tasks for the npc's you bring to town. Maybe even through in reputation to unlock certain things they will sell you.

[Pepe_Le_Pede]

Originally posted by Rasip:

Valheim started out hardcore and brutal. It got worse?

That's what ppl are saying about Mistlands. From what I've read it sounds like the Mistlands requires certain tactics/gear to make it manageable. If you don't learn it, it's punishing. Like one-hit punishing. I haven't experienced it myself yet.

[Rallianto]

Good ideas Pepe_Le_Pede
I saw the devs talk about NPC's as quest givers some time ago, so they are certainly thinking about it. Great idea, that both shopkeepers and other NPC's have wishes for different ressources, gives even more reason to sail out and find them. As you say, if shopkeepers also had quest/wishes, and if you provide certain things for them, they start sell/buy new stuff as well - or other rewards

[HangarPilot]

Originally posted by Rasip:

Valheim started out hardcore and brutal. It got worse?

While the store page description says "a brutal survival" bla bla bla ... the actual "tags" associated with the game are quite tame. Its launch was nothing short of viral and it was widely received as very approachable to even casual players. That holds until mid-late game when difficulty ramps almost exponentially.

I did "complete" the Mistalnds/boss but the boss fight was an HOUR-LONG cheesy slog for me playing solo. Not impossibly hard ... but hardly fun. Had to leave the fight, go home and repair gear, and return three times. I can't think of any other game where you even COULD leave a boss fight ... let alone return and pick up where you left off.

The "discussions" there have become quite toxic. Casual players rage-quitting because it's "too hard" and want difficulty settings while the "gatekeeper" hardcore players want it even harder. And for some reason many of the hard-core are downright hostile to any hint of difficulty settings because it will "ruin" the game. (I still fail to see how allowing one player the option to turn down difficulty ruins anything for another player.) And the hardcore player always have the same answer ... mods. I'm sorry, hardcore players can use mods (or even just use lesser gear to make it harder) ... casual players (almost by definition) are "casual" and least likely use mods.

The latest update has many players caught in a punishing death spiral. Die and you lose your gear. Normally you can retrieve it, but in some cases they just die repeatedly trying to get back to it. You also lose "skills" with each death. Some players had maxed out skills at 100 only to die many, many times and their skills are now in the 40's. Which means with each defeat you are LESS likely to succeed.

This may be an unfair characterization, but since communication from the devs is almost nonexistent... my imagine can run away with itself... It almost feels like since Valheim sold 10m copies, they don't have to worry about sales or whatever and they can make the game THEY want regardless of player feedback. Contrast that with, say, The Long Dark. As I understand it, that started out to be a "story" and they made a "sandbox" available for players to tinker around in while they waited. The PLAN was to delete the sandbox when the story was done. Well the sandbox was the huge hit. It changed the course of the development and the "story" is now a back-burner project and the "survival sandbox" is what The Long Dark is known for.

More casual players who just want to build and have fun with Valheim can either (a) use cheats or mods (b) play the game but only to a certain point or (c) pack up and move to Len's Island!

Granted I'm new here, but I like everything I've seen from Flow Studio so far. I don't want this to become a Valheim-bashing thread -- I do love "most" of the game -- but I do think there are lessons to be learned (or maybe mistakes to be avoided).

I'm really hoping Len's can become my new "go-to" game. I hope it's a huge success ... we could really use more "family friendly" games and fewer "brutal" "horror" "punishing" "dark fantasy" ones.