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1. Azusa. I'm surprised to see her mid-A and I think you've underrated her. Her healing is insane. Remember it's max health, not lost health. Not sure which build you're running on her but hybrid green for the extra healing seems to perform the best for me. Extra time spent using Shindara because of the extra attack it provides with 2-3x blue is less time spent counter-attacking with Mirror Image and thus less healing. It's unfortunate to give up the groggy effect that you could get with a 2-3x blue build, but her healing with 2x green is simply so powerful that it doesn't matter. Imo she is unquestionably S-tier and I'd personally put her near Natsu I think.
2. Asuka. Is her red build really the best? I've always enjoyed her blue build and felt it was more consistent than red. The problem with red is that it's a one-trick pony with no cc, and to get healing on her you'd need to run [Holy Night] Kirara which is almost a waste because Asuka can't trigger the passive damage bonus because she doesn't really have any debuffs with a red build other than I guess the burn damage from Bomb Escape, but that has a long cooldown. Yeah, she can get a crazy juggle once in a blue moon, but other than that she's just bad and brings nothing to the table besides damage. I hate jump-attack abilities like Rending Storm because you can be knocked out of them by abilities like Gravity Hold, Tentacle Hold, etc.
A blue build has big speed buffs (Dust Cyclone 10% & Slicer Zone 20%), a counterattack 20% slow (Spiral Blast), and a large-range groggy (Mach Punch) in addition to her usual dps. Plus, who doesn't love hearing her yell "Makku-Panchi!" lol. Curious where you'd rate her blue build in comparison to red, or in comparison to other girls on the list. With the current bugs it's nearly useless unfortunately, but pre-bugs I loved that build.
3. Nagi. I've still never noticed any bug with Mirage Strike, and Wasp is so strong I think she's underrated where she's at. Does the bug cause her to damage herself, flinch herself, or both? I use a green main on her for the slow on Moonshade. Even though it's only 10%, it's spammable and gives her enough of an edge vs girls that don't have slows of their own or aren't running Butler Asagi.
4. Felicia. Are you considering Evil Strange mandatory for the self healing, or the particle generation for an ult-spam build (or both)? I feel the leech effect is pretty negligible in arena tbh. Are you using Ingrid supporter for the ult-spam build? I don't have that supporter so I end up typically using Spica in the main slot for the speed buff on Blood Scythe with 2x blues for the groggy effect on Sanguine Smash. I round this out with Seven Hells for the lols, and Orochinagi. Orochinagi does good enough base damage even without the 3x red crit bonus, and the 10% slow with 1x red supporter, while not great, is still better than nothing. Seven Hells is actually pretty strong due to the cc and juggle potential, but has some anti-synergy with Sanguine Smash since she can't lift enemies that are groggy. It's still funny watching her flip around though.
5. Francis. i'm curious if you tested her new weapon at 5/5. I wasn't brave enough to use my Demonite on it in case she still sucks. I really want her to be good. =/
And of course it wouldn't be a complete comment from me without mentioning Saika, haha.
6. Saika. I'm surprised to see Takeover listed as an essential skill. Disarm effects are strong but the very low duration of the effect combined with the absurdly long cooldown of this ability makes it not worth it in place of Calamity Over in any situation imo. Calamity Over has very high priority, is ranged, does good damage, and essentially gives Saika a permanent +20% damage buff (same as Takeover but way more uptime). It's just plain better than Takeover, especially if you don't have Hebi & Shika active for the 4th skill slot. Even with the 4th slot I'd consider Calamity Over a more essential ability than Takeover.
The supporter list is way too much to get into in one comment, but just a couple things/questions.
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming Yuno is knocked down a tier compared to the other invincibility supporters due to her anti-synergy with Yachiyo. I don't know if that caveat alone is enough to warrant bumping her down an entire tier. I still consider her mandatory on Murasaki.
2. Assuming Yuno stays where she's at, I'd probably bump [Choir] Phantasma up next to her. She's basically a less-good Sora that's more friendly to melee characters. She works very well with Azusa in particular.
Again, cool to see an update to this list and I applaud your efforts.
1. The main reason Azusa ended up in A Tier is exactly because of her relatively strong heals (I also pointed that out in the main post), but that's where it ends, ESPECIALLY if you opt out of blue build because then you lose the groggy to prevent others from using Azusa like a ragdoll (hello Noah and Oboro). In my experience, 2x blue was in fact her most successful build against the majority of characters, especially the top ones. While you do lose some bonus healing on Mirage Image, 2x blue adds bonus healing on Double Team instead, so the overall healing isn't that much different. Also, I'm not sure if you use Vikala or not (green Azusa without it sounds viable enough to me as well afterall), but I don't think its a good skill for Arena because it has an incredibly long animation time and the defense buff is practically non-existent.
And again, that's where it ends for Azusa. She's basically like Lapis but doesn't actually have the insane healing that Lapis has. Azusa is a solid bruiser with decent normal attacks (much like Rinko), but lacks a real gimmick outside of groggy + healing. I did also state that I wasn't too sure who I should put higher between the two, so maybe Azusa deserves to be above Rinko, but I don't believe in her being an S Tier alongside healers like Lapis, Emily and Natsu.
2. Clearwing Blade is what makes red build undeniably the best build for Asuka imo. The main issue you talk about literally gets countered when you equip this Weapon because it allows her to spam Rending Storm even if she does end up getting an unlucky knock-up during the animation once. The sheer amount of damage from Rending Storm should also not be understated, it's one of the highest base damage skills in this entire game. But yes, it's definitely a one-trick-pony playstyle, that's why she ended up in C Tier. However, her ability to win fights she shouldn't win when she gets lucky with Rending Storm spams is the reason she stands at the very top of that Tier. As for equipping supporters, in the tiering I've assumed all characters having access to the best of the best supporters, so OP supporters being "less optimal" on them than on other Taimanin doesn't matter.
I've tried blue Asuka in the past as well, but the problem of relying on a build that focusses on buffing and slows is the existence of Sora Supporter and Butler Asagi. Red build has no problems with either of these 2 broken top tier supporters and that's a big reason for it performing the best.
3. Maybe it's a bug that only occurs when Nagi is on the enemy side, but yeah, Nagi equipped with Mirage Strike will damage herself and cause her to flinch herself as well. This causes her to be eternally stuck on just doing 1 normal attack and never being able to finish her own normal attack string, even when the enemy is Groggy or something similiar.
As for her tiering, Wasp really isn't *that* strong. It's her best skill in Arena for sure, but in the end it's just a single projectile that can be both dodged entirely or blocked relatively easily with Fortitude because it only deals a single hit. This makes it far less consistent than most other Skills that inflict Groggy with multi-hits. Or even Azusa's version, which is literally the closest one we have to Wasp, is already way better because it teleports Azusa into melee range, which is much harder to evade.
4. I consider Evil Strange to be a staple for both of your listed reasons yes. I think I talked about it before in the previous thread, but 2x blue and 1x red is her best performing build in Arena in my experience. If you want to use the ult-spam potential of Evil Strange you would also equip Vampire's Blood and watch the particles come in like crazy, but even without the ult-spam focus (and thus no Vampire's Blood) it's still good for gaining an edge in particles compared to your opponent and even if the healing is small, it's still her most consistent way of self-healing (I know I don't have to explain to you why Evil Strange is more consistent than her dodge skill that also Marks enemies haha). It's also a debuff that can't be blocked by Butler Asagi which is a very underrated, but extremely useful fact, especially when you want to run supporters that rely on the enemy being debuffed.
5. I have not fully tested Francis with her new weapon at 5/5 no, but after my preliminary testing so far I'm not convinced it's definitely better than just using an Arena Weapon + Onigoroshi, which is why I haven't listed that Weapon in this tier list either. The AI is good enough at triggering Onigoroshi and depending on who you're fighting, you don't always want to become Intoxicated as quick as possible either (sounds like a terrible time vs Astaroth or characters with extremely fast dodging like Su even). The potential with her new weapon is definitely there though, and if the devs announcement about changing Arena mechanics didn't force my hand into posting this now, I probably would have tested it more as well. I don't think it could push her out of D Tier with her slow animations however. She shares that weaknes with Phantasma, but Phantasma has tons and tons of amazing goodies at her disposal that makes her slowness much more viable, unlike Francis who tries to be Murasaki but just isn't ^_^"
6. Haha, I wouldn't have expected anything less in regards to Saika either, but I can really assure you I've tested her through and through. You're always ignoring the fact that Saika has an incredibly short attack range, which means she has issues getting her attack strings off, something Takeover provides for her and why I do think it's very important for her to run. Calamity-over is definitely a great skill too that I would recommend to anyone who can run 4 skills on her alongside the ones listed in this Tier List. But for a f2p who can only equip 3 skills, Takeover allowing Saika to more consistently get her combos off instead of getting locked down by pretty much everyone else's superior attack range is a huge deal. The fact Calamity-over is a fast casting "ranged" attack is its biggest selling point, but that's not worth losing the ability to create windows for combo opportunities over, imo.
7. Yuno is A Tier mostly because she's outclassed 99% of the time by just using Shisui supporter and making her green. The fact that Spica's Active actually deals damage as well as not having any kind of drawbacks like particle costs is why Spica isn't just straight up outclassed by Shisui but Yuno is. Murasaki is probably one of the best users of her indeed, but as you pointed out as well, using Yuno means you can't use Yachiyo. Murasaki is much better with green Shisui + Yachiyo than with Yuno + Chikage.
8. Individual placement in the Supporter Tier list is much less important than in the Taimanin one. For the most part, I just listed all Main exclusives at the top (because they make for very nice cut-offs) and grouped supporters with similiar effects together. I did put a little thought in who got put above the others, but it's not flawless.
I will point out however that you shouldn't be fooled by Choir Phantasma's Sora-like buff removal effect. I was thinking the same thing when she was first released but very quickly realized the huge difference between having a randomly timed buff removal like Sora, or one that can be predicted because it happens at set intervals like Choir Phantasma. Especially when fighting against it, it's too easy to just time your Invulnerability supporter effect at 16 seconds into the fight and watch Choir Phantasma be incapable of removing it at all. This is why Sora is the SS Tier but Choir Phantasma isn't.
I started multi-quoting my reply and it was making the post gigantic so I'm just going to omit the quotes, lol.
Azusa
I don't really agree with this. 10% + 5% sounds comparable to 20% on paper, but it's really not in practice. While it's true that blue does get a small heal from Double Team, the uptime is nowhere near the uptime of Mirror Image. It sounds counter-intuitive, but Azusa making her enemy groggy is detrimental to her healing because she can't heal if she isn't getting hit. The obvious argument is "but she's not taking damage if the enemy is groggy" which is of course true. However, the very short cooldown on Mirror Image + the giant heal it provides means Azusa really doesn't care what her opponent is doing (other than heavy cc-spam like Oboro's which is indeed one of her worst matchups, but that is true for most of the girls). She can seriously just face-tank most of the other girls and be fine, lol.
I do indeed use Vikala and I don't think it's necessary or even a particularly good skill, but even with the long animation it's a decent utility. It's ranged, provides a small buff, and it seems to sort of push her enemy away slightly, so even though she's stuck in the animation she doesn't seem particularly vulnerable while using it.
I would agree with her placement near Rinko when using a 2 or 3x blue build, but I personally don't think that's her best build. She's practically a raid boss with 2x green. That heal is simply OP af. It's so strong that I don't even use a healing supporter on her, lol. I still think that build is solidly S-tier, but we can agree to disagree.
Asuka
Yes I'm aware of the interactions with Clearwing Blade, and it is very powerful when she can pull off her full damage, but her complete lack of cc with a red build always turns me off I guess. It's true that blue is indeed countered by those two supporters but it just seems more consistent to me. Maybe I just like watching her running around with super speed, lol.
Nagi
Ah, that's interesting, and you're probably right then that it happens when she's an enemy. I've never seen it happen when she's on my team. I agree that Wasp isn't incredible or anything, but considering the other girls in her tier, I think it's maybe a bit underrated still.
Felicia
That makes sense, I didn't know if you were considering it for something specialized that I was maybe unaware of. Feli is so cute she should be allowed a 5th skill slot, lol. I wish she had more going for her in arena, but it is what it is.
Francis
Fair points, and oh man imagine if she had super armor like Murasaki, that would be awesome. It's a shame that her kit is so goofy because not only is she bad in arena, but I don't find her very fun to play in pve either, which sucks because I love her voicework and animations. :(
Saika
I don't ignore her short attack range, but I guess I don't consider it as big a problem as you do because most girls are basically programmed to constantly run toward each other in arena. Other than the obvious OP characters at the top of the pile, I would say that Astaroth is Saika's worst matchup, and Takeover doesn't help because even if Astaroth is disarmed she just keeps moving away. What Saika really needs in her kit is a gap-closer that isn't Moonsault because that ability sucks, or a decent slow. As I've stated before, I have absolutely awful luck with my girls using abilities that require a perfect dodge to activate. The only one who ever seems to use her ability properly is Murasaki. You make a good case for Takeover, but I'd still pick Calamity Over.
Yuno
That's fair. I'm still not sold on trying to build Murasaki for sustain, though. The defense debuff from Tentacle Mine is so strong that I feel like capitalizing on it with more damage is a better build. While Chikage is very good, I've been running Yuno, The Founding 3, and Wild West Francis on Murasaki. The amount of damage she can deal in a Tentacle Hold window with the Tentacle Mine debuff up is pretty ridic, and let's be honest, she generally isn't going to win a "stay at 99% hp" battle with any of the girls who excel at that even if you build her for sustain. When fighting other girls that she can just kill anyway because her damage and cc is so high, I feel like making her sustain-based is just needlessly extending a battle that she could win faster if she had more damage.
Choir Phantasma
I agree with her comparison to Sora and why she isn't nearly as good, and I wasn't sure if the order of supporters was as strict as for the main cast, which you said it isn't so it's all good.
Good stuff as always!
No problem, I figured the Supporter list was needed because Supporters (especially nowadays) are often much bigger influencers than Skills, which I personally feel like is a bit of a shame, but it makes sense because this game runs on Gachas. We get much less playable Taimanin with unique Skills in comparison, so the importance of Skills and their effects fall off faster.
That's why I didn't put quotes in my reply either haha.
It's true that Azusa is the freshest addition to the list, so she's most susceptible to being moved around. Phantasma was originally much lower too until it became obvious that she just needed Dream Claw and speed/super armor buffs in order to actually not get stuck due to her slowness all the time.
I will definitely test green Azusa some more, but what I was mostly trying to say is that blue Azusa is *also* still a good healer, so I agree with all of your points. I just personally think the added groggy is important in order to fight the top tier characters and that it's worth losing a little bit of extra healing over. The fact the groggy comes at the same time Mirror Image goes on cooldown is also a big part of why I feel like it's literally a free groggy, because she's still healing at the same frequency no matter if she's green or blue.
As for Asuka, I won't deny that blue build is more fun to watch for sure haha, but if this Tier List was based on fun then Noah would be at the very bottom with her just not allowing anyone to play the game lol.
And yeah, that's why I said that all Supporters in A Tier and up are effectively the meta. Pretty much all Taimanin build their "best builds" from A Tier and up Supporters, with some exceptions which is why I felt I should post lower tier Supporters too. As for the damage versus sustain idea, I feel like it's actually the damage part that becomes less important in equal Awakening battles, because of Supporters like Narita and the special Kiraras keeping anyone alive no matter how much you max out your damage. The fact Murasaki's damage is high even without the Yuno focus is one of the reasons she's still in S Tier because she *does* actually win those kind of extended fights relatively easy due to her big hits in the final few seconds.
The Supporter list was missing Setagawa Mizuha and I put her in C Tier. Blue Lady Rinko is still the overall better debuff remover "when hit", but Mizuha is a different color and still a viable counter to Oboro as well, so she deserves to be mentioned.
Also moved Azusa above Rinko for being more versatile on different colors than Rinko is (which means she has a pretty big Supporter choice advantage). I'm still not convinced she belongs in S Tier due to not having a lot of gimmicks outside of the big heals, which Lapis does far better. She also doesn't have a unique slow that can't be blocked by Butler Asagi like Eleonor has, nor an extended lockdown on any character who does not have Butler Asagi like Sakura has.
he he he he hehehehehehe
you are welcome
Don't forget her skill is still only limited to 2 procs every pvp fight due to the long 30 seconds cooldown, but yes, she deserved a spot on this list :P
noobs right matter too buddy :(
jk jk thank you for giving a list so I cannot care less about trying things on my own. gods work right here
Equipping Revolving Bat and getting 3 heals every 5 seconds with Ricochet Frenzy + Onigoroshi definitely makes her a lot more tanky than before. While she's still no Murasaki offensively (lack of defense and speed debuffs), she can now actually recover from someone hammering her down during Invincibility periods. She's still relatively slow, but much like Azusa; it's okay to have flaws when you can shrug off most of the damage taken anyway.
Speaking of, Azusa will likely swap places with Sakura as well. I mentioned before that she doesn't have the same consistent lockdown as Sakura has, which is true, but she does have a small lockdown still and her healing allows her to perform it more often than Sakura can before running out of steam. (aka: she's a better 1v3 character than Sakura)
Francis is a contender for A Rank with her new Weapon, but it would require a bit more testing before I feel confident putting her in the same rank as Taimanin with actual locks and strategies they can exploit compared to Francis who just hits really really hard and tries to heal off any damage sustained when fighting against said exploit users.
If Ragnarok's AI wasn't hard coded to just completely ignore the Hold Dodge skill, Snow Storm would likely be her 2nd core skill and she would also likely have ended up much higher. Even when using nothing but a single Hold Dodge skill, Ragnarok will basically just be doing normal attacks for 90 seconds, so I have absolutely no idea why the devs felt the need to hard code her AI to never use one of her 2 best skills that she has access to. This is the primary reason why she ended up in C Tier, but took Asuka's spot at the very top for being at least a bit more reliable thanks to her passive healing.
Laevatein is a nice Weapon, but the deep freeze is unreliable and ultimately doesn't do a whole lot other than provide Ragnarok with a little bit more time of healing, but unlike Francis' new Weapon, Ragnarok still heals relatively fine even without it as well.
Her Supporter is an entirely different story however, the ability to passively freeze is good enough on its own, but the "current HP %" is also a nice mechanic to deal with the heavy tank meta that Noah and Shisui have forced. 3% is on the low side though, which is why Noah and Shisui still reign supreme, but the idea is pretty cool. Even the passive Super Armor that is provided if you opt to use her as a Main Supporter is very useful in Arena.
NY Natsu was also added to the Supporter list for having a gimmicky effect for anyone who wants to spam Ultimates and has a groggy effect in their kit.
P.S. Shizuru's rework did nothing for her Arena performance, so she remains where she was at.
I was however, brave enough to dump my stock of Demonites into Laevatein for Ragnarok. I'm baffled at her placement in C. I'd put her in S, lol. I'm curious to know what other skills and what supporters you have her loaded with that puts her in C.
Deep Freeze as a mechanic is extremely powerful. Unlike groggy, it will completely stop things like Emily's drone and Shisui's guardian from attacking you.
I have her at lvl 81 currently, and run 2x blue, 1x green with Shisui, Ragnarok, & Hebiko. The Founding 3 would be ideal in place of Hebi but that supporter permanently belongs to Azusa, lol.
I'm using her Frostbite Taima Art (+15% attack speed), Frosty Gale (ranged freeze on hit, -20% slow), Cold Tempest (freeze on hit), and Snow Storm (freeze zone for 6 sec w/ 1x green). 4 set freeze magatamas for extra cheese.
She just wrecks people. She has so many ways to trigger deep freeze that I'm not having any trouble even vs the girls in S tier.
I haven't experienced this at all. I definitely agree that hold skills seem to be lower on the priority list than things like double-dash skills, but I haven't had any problems with Ragnarok using Snow Storm. On my end it's still the perfect dodge abilities that my girls have trouble using consistently.
Speaking of double-dodge skills, Freezing Spear is an option if she doesn't want to use Snow Storm. It pushes enemies back like Maika's Ruthless Explosion, it just doesn't have a freeze mechanic attached to it which imo makes it suboptimal.
30% chance to deep freeze + 24% penetration is very strong. She has so many other ways to freeze that I feel like it comes up plenty often at 30%.
I guess I just can't see why she's so much lower on the list than Kirara, who basically does the same thing but worse imo. The only thing Kirara has going for her over Ragnarok is the defense debuffs, but she lacks the penetration and deep freeze effect which is huge.
I only have this supporter at Slv.2 unfortunately, so I haven't tested her in the main slot but it's probably one of her best options. She can also very effectively use [Celestial Fox] Sora or [Choir] Phantasma. [New Years] Felicia can be super strong too, but again I unfortunately only have her at Slv.1 so she's not fit for a main slot, so Shisui it is for now.
All my tests are done against people with equal enchantments, awakenings and Arena-viable supporters. Against opponents like that, Ragnarok is severely limited, especially because of her refusal to use Snow Storm. Based on what you said however, there might be something about AI operating differently on different accounts, which would be a massive can of worms if that turns out to be true.
I was also already using Freezing Spear but I don't consider it a core skill, it can easily be swapped for other skills if your color combination allows it.
As for the Weapon, I did say Laevatein is a nice Weapon and deep freeze is cool, but it doesn't necessarily outperform 40% extra damage against everyone + reduced debuff duration, aka an Arena Weapon. I only list Weapons in this list when their performance is superior to that of Arena Weapons.
The reason Kirara is much higher is because her Laufey's Drop allows for her to CONSTANTLY freeze enemies with her normal attacks, rather than being reliant on a 30% proc chance on Skills with cooldowns for an extended freeze like Ragnarok with Laevatein has. To conclude, Kirara has a freeze lock on her normal attacks while Ragnarok has a freeze lock on her Skills. Normal attack hits are far more consistent than skill hits, which is why Kirara actually ends up freezing much more often than Ragnarok does.