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I don't know what I'm doing, and I feel like the top tiers are Emily and Rin who are great at burst damage and stun so they tend to just insta-win most encounters. (Either me, or the enemy, depending on character upgrades).
And I always wanted to use SU, but it is as you say. She isn't very good since when she is built to be tanky she mostly just ends up as a Murasaki thanks to a lot of super armors.
However, ultimately, Shisui and Noah are definitely a step above them (Shisui more like 10 steps) due to their ability to stall out fights and passively recover HP so they end up having more %HP after 90 seconds, which is what will ultimately win them the fight. It doesn't matter if Shisui is facing an enemy with 3M HP while she only has 300k. As long as she can deal just 1 point of damage before the fight ends, she will win because she will likely be at 100% HP and the enemy will be at 99.9999% HP. And then Shisui is declared the winner, regardless of actual values.
The main difference between Shisui and Noah in that regard is that Noah is limited to "missing HP recovery" as well as being forced to use Supporter slots to achieve this goal, while Shisui has access to "maximum HP recovery" which is even provided to her by her own Skill, meaning she is not limited or restricted in any way.
Not to mention that Shisui's heal is also extremely busted due to the fact that it can't be countered. The heals from Emily, Shizuru and even Aina all have the same shared weakness that they are extremely easily kicked out of their healing range. Shisui, however, has a self-targetting heal meaning that *if* she triggers it, she *will* get that 50% of her HP bar back. That's the biggest deal breaker with Shisui in Arena imo and why she is such a huge problem design-wise. And then she does this roughly every 10-15 seconds, so unless you can burst her down within that short amount of time, you're better off just immediately surrendering.
(Forgot to reply to this part)
P.S. Yes, Su is primarily a PvE character thanks to her triple dodge, making her one of, if not the, best choice for speedrunning/speedfarming. The AI in Arena almost never utilizes this main selling point of her which is one of the reasons why she performs so poorly in PvP. She does indeed get some Super Armor like you said, but it's not as consistent as Murasaki's and sadly also isn't enough to cover all of her other shortcomings (pun intended).
I'm also surprised to see Shiranui rated so high, as I've never considered her much of a threat unless the opponent has a big Awakening Point advantage. Same with Asagi. Koujinka is super-powerful but the AI sucks at using "x effect when dodging" abilities. Same reason Oboro is bad, because if she isn't using Hypnosis Seal consistently she isn't too much of a threat.
I'm also a bit surprised to see Saika so low. Her Spinning Kick is one of the few attacks that has higher priority than Rin's Volt Hook, meaning she will almost always cc her opponent first, and she does a ton of damage. I'd personally probably bump her up near Ingrid. She's certainly better than Su at the very least imo, lol.
edit -- yeah after looking at it again I'd move Ingrid up too. IMO (subjective opinion) Ingrid belongs in B, Oboro belongs in C, Saika somewhere at least in C, maybe even B. I don't think she's anywhere near as bad as Su or Tokiko.
Thanks, the reason I didn't provide explicit details is because it would be way too much information to cover everything. But Emily's most successful build includes running Armored Kurenai as Supporter which adds a passive stun chance to Emily's normal attack, and because it doesn't deal any knockback damage, her normal attack also doesn't break the stun. This means that, with the right amount of RNG, Emily can potentially stun an opponent from the very first hit she does and keep them stunned until she depletes their health bar. This doesn't happen often ofcourse, but the ability to randomly start stunning someone and keeping them stunned for prolonged periods giving her free time to DPS on them is the main reason her DPS check is so difficult to pass. The added groggy/stun immunity only makes it even worse as it means there is simply no way to ever turn off this chance of getting stunned by her.
I don't think they have to nerf Emily though, there are already a lot of "anti-Emily" Supporters out there that people do use a lot in Arena for obvious reasons, as well as Emily not having a perfectly designed kit, unlike the kind of love that was given to Shisui. This often leaves Emily without any additional effects on her Skills. Shisui's immunity to groggy/stun is a far bigger problem than Emily's immunity anyway. At least Emily doesn't stall for 90 seconds and recover back to full health guaranteed every fight. Those kind of strategies really are disgusting, I agree with you. That's why I've always refused to use Noah and I will absolutely refuse to use Shisui too until Gremory does something about this.
Shiranui's blue build gives her a lot of Super Armor as well as a lot of additional Damage Reduction through her Skills. This means she has enough survivability to not fall to burst damage and the fact she is a Human means she can even run the Butler Asagi Supporter to deal with all the slows that characters like Rin, Noah, Sakura etc. like to throw out. Her Genejin also means she can imitate the same groggy/stun immunity that Emily and Shisui have as well as giving her potential flinch lock opportunities (but Shisui gets to have this potential permanently without even needing to waste a Skill slot for it, because Gremory wanted Shisui to be absolutely broken, apparently). Against characters that don't try to abuse their enemies with nasty locks though, she is basically just a tank. Which is still good, but not good enough for S Tier imo, despite dealing very well with the S Tier strategies herself.
The difference between Koujinka and Hypnosis Seal is that Koujinka affects "the field" while Hypnosis Seal is just a straight up debuff. This impacts a lot of things, most importantly the amount of immunities a character can have to these abilities. Super Armor will block Hypnosis Seal from working but will not stop Koujinka. Not to mention there's an actual range limit to Hypnosis Seal while, again, Koujinka affects the entire field. So Koujinka is actually still very useful in Arena, even if the AI doesn't use the ability as well as a human player would. Asagi and Oboro are both assassins so they don't need much luck to work, only a little bit (and Oboro a little bit more).
There's a couple of attacks that have higher priority than Rin's Volt Hook, so that alone isn't enough to make Saika a great choice. Even after she would land a Spinning Kick stun, a single attack will break that stun and then Rin is 99% likely to just dodge backwards, potentially even triggering her Denki, providing her with bonus attack damage, speed and Super Armor. After which, Saika won't be able to do anything to stop Rin's harassment. I would not give Saika very good odds if she were to go up against Rin.
I might check her out more in direct comparison to some of the other characters around her, as I do know she has some damage potential. Her main problem is getting that damage out consistently, as all of her tricks get countered by the enemy having Super Armor, which a lot of characters have access to one way or another.
I personally always felt like the "Fuuma" characters are all designed to be PvE characters (which is where Saika shines much more as well) and not PvP, so that might've clouded my judgment on her position a little bit haha. I do not think she would win in a 1v1 against Ingrid however. Ingrid has the range and speed advantage, as well as superior debuffs. Saika also has no reliable sustain which gives her the same problem that Ingrid has: they run out of steam after a single fight most of the time. And she also lacks any kind of slow mechanic to keep going on low HP through flinch locking, unlike every other C Tier character has.
Oboro is definitely B tier though. She might be inferior to Asagi in practically every way, but the strategy itself is still very good for Arena combat and Oboro wins out most of the time against the other B Tier characters. Groggy into burst damage is the same tactic that makes Rinko so good.
It will definitely help but it's hardly a counter, not to mention how extremely expensive and difficult it is to get 4 proper Magatamas with the Light Attribute. The 5% trigger chance is extremely low, meaning that you will not be reducing *every* heal that Shisui pops. And even a single non-reduced heal from her is going to set you back all the way to the beginning of the fight, usually. Except with a shorter timer left.
Wether Shisui heals 50% or 25% of her HP bar every 15 seconds doesn't impact any other aspect her character was designed with. She's still going to heal and she's still going to end up with a lot of HP at the end of the fight. You just give yourself a slightly bigger window to burst her down, but that's a window you'll only be seeing roughly 5% of the time anyway.
If the devs don't do anything about this however, then yes, having 4x Light Magatamas on every single PvP character is likely going to be an absolute must. Which is a real problem as it completely invalidates every other UR Magatama set a player might roll into (for PvP at least).
Ah, gotcha. Every time I see Shiranui she's running a red build, which I've found pretty underwhelming. There is one person in the top 100 running a Nui blue build as of this post, and surprise surprise, the other 2 are Shisui and Emily (actually surprised not Noah for a 3-type team).
Yeah I definitely don't think Saika can reliably win a 1v1 vs Rin, or think she's on the same tier or anything, just that she does have some things going for her. Probably the most notable besides her stun priority is the fact that Shadowless Kick will track the enemy. If Saika uses it and the enemy teleports behind her with a skill, she will turn around and continue kicking them in the face. This is a pretty big deal compared to Oboro for example who will continue in the same direction with Carnage Dance if an enemy ports behind her, essentially wasting the ability. She has a groggy as well with Gale Kick (it's just that Spinning Kick is also a gap-closer so she always uses it first), and she also has Moonsault for a bit of sustain, though it's nowhere on the level of characters like Shisui.
I really want Oboro to be good. I love her weapons and think she has one of the sexiest bodies, and a lot of really good skins. It's unfortunate that she's way outclassed by other demon-type characters. I want Su to be good too because she's super cute. And yeah, full honesty, Saika is my girl so I may be unfairly trying to prop her up a bit, but I do firmly believe Su and Tokiko are a whole separate tier of bad from Saika.
I think the fact that blue Shiranui isn't very popular is for the same reason that I mentioned before in here. It's not a build that is very efficient in PvE, so less people will even build their Shiranuis like that in the first place. Same reason the Arena is littered more with Emily and Rin even though Murasaki literally has a good shot at taking both of them on herself as well. It just requires a slightly different approach than what you would do for PvE. Her self-heals are practically irrelevant, it's all about the normal/melee attack damage and damage reduction for a PvP Murasaki. And the new Penetration Supporter (Chikage) is also a perfect fit for her, to deal with all the damage reduction that characters have in Arena.
And no worries, I get it about Su and Saika lol. They're just both designed to be more effective in PvE than in PvP I feel like, so to get them to be effective in PvP is very challenging. But you're right, Saika might be better than Su in PvP. My reasoning was simply the fact that Su triggers Super Armor which will stop Saika from doing anything scary, while Su can still do whatever she wants in the meantime.
And I can definitely tell that you've found Oboro's most successful PvP build too haha. She isn't bad in my opinion however, it's just like you say though, she needs to have a bunch of luck to pull off her strategy flawlessly. But when she does, she can instantly delete enemies and that's why she's a B Tier imo. Characters in A Tier are consistent in what they do, relying only on minor RNG, while B Tier characters are much more reliant on exact timings and luck of the draw with AI inputs. Oboro is definitely at the top of that Tier though, so it's not like this list is saying that Oboro will always lose to Maika without question, it just means that Maika has a better chance of pulling off what she wants to do in Arena.
I feel like maybe Asuka is a bit too high though, and that might be why you feel Ingrid should be in that Tier. Ingrid would most likely beat Asuka in a direct 1v1, but Asuka's juggle potential is so unique that it can literally win her fights that she has no business winning. It's just extremely unreliable, but also extremely deadly. So it makes pinning her exact position in a Tier list like this pretty difficult.
It's not like the Rank seperation in this list indicates a huge power gap, or guaranteed outcomes, it's more about consistency when it came to these rankings. Well, except Shisui. Shisui just always wins.
Also, after reading this topic, I did not understand at all what kind of super healing by Shisui was talking about, because I did not find such a skill in her.
Also, I would like to see, at least in the screenshots, all the builds for all girls-Taimanins that the author of this topic posted in his impromptu PVP top.
The primary point of this list and topic is to showcase just how much Shisui is out of line compared to the rest, that is correct. But if people want to talk about other characters, that is okay too. This is still a Tier List after all.
The OP Healing Skill from Shisui is called "Nature's Light", because it cannot be countered and will guarantee Shisui gets the full healing effect every single time. Also, don't forget that through Awakening Points and Team Set options, you can get additional 50% extra Healing for free. Add on top of that Supporters like Kirara which give 30% damage reduction and 20% extra Healing and it all just ends up stacking way too much for Shisui. Which she easily gets away with because the devs forgot to design a restriction into her kit, meaning she can pick whoever she wants and abuse them in any way she wants.
But, I also already pointed out that it's not feasible to post every single build for every single character. Mostly because there are characters (like Shisui...) who have successful builds on all of her color options. This means that for Shisui alone I would have to post at least 4 different builds (red, green, blue, mixed) and point out exactly why and how each of them work. Emily is up there too as far as freedom of choice goes, although Armored Kurenai does at least mean 1 of her Supporter Slots is locked. Overall it's just way too much effort to cover everyone for a Mode that is (luckily) not the main focus of the game, not to mention that such amount of information will likely only make even more people turn away.
Definitely makes sense. Red build Nui is fantastic in pve and one of the characters I completed Arena Tower with. I kind of boycotted Murasaki after they ruined her face with the update. She was one of my favorites. :( New Asuka looks terrible too...
Yeah I ran Oboro as one of my main characters for awhile. She can be really good with luck as you say, I just wish she wasn't so outclassed by the more powerful A-tier demons and broken Noah. I typically run Kurenai as my demon because she's the most enchanted and I don't want to run Noah. I've been contemplating Astaroth as well because she's kinda OP too (imo). Her ability to auto-attack while moving backwards across the whole arena is BS, lol.
Ha, it's funny that you say this because I think I actually was looking at Asuka's placement compared to Ingrid when making my comment. Asuka can be scary, but her biggest problem (imo) is that fast-attackers or attackers with slows can just flinch lock her to death (this can happen to Kurenai as well under certain conditions) because her flinch recovery is terrible. Like if Asagi, Rin or anyone with slows like Sakura gets in her face she just dies. Ingrid at least has Crescent Slash with crazy burst damage and groggy effect to try and recover. Asuka can burst too but her cc is comparatively bad. Another reason I keep white-knighting for Saika is because she has a lot of good cc options in her kit for every color build. She does have a super armor ability as well, though I haven't experimented with it yet and I think it only applies during the specific skill.
And I did specify that the summaries are simplified in the original post, so when I say "permanent stun" I mostly mean "permanent chance to stun", as well as being indicative that there's a big difference between the way that Emily uses her stuns vs other stun users like Maika.
Murasaki definitely got duked on her rework, but at least the devs seemingly tried to make up for it by giving her some very nice tools to play with in recent Supporter additions. But they should just put the old face back for sure (or re-redo this one).
Oboro was actually my very first character that I built specifically for PvP (back when Asagi was still S Tier) and because of that, she will always have a special place in my heart for being the one that made me interested in PvP at all. So I'm glad to see another Oboro enjoyer out there as well :)
Astaroth is indeed pretty good in Arena, I'd say she's definitely the best ranged normal attacker after Emily. If you want to play with Astaroth, try using something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/7ak4l3V.png (my personal favorite way of playing her in Arena)
Supporters are just placeholders to show colors. I don't like dictating exact builds because sometimes a person might not have the required Supporters or Weapons, especially if they are Limited ones. For example, the green Main here can be anything from Sora, to Shisui to even Yuno if you must (but a green Shisui is better than Yuno imo). Or anything else if none of those are available lol, but as long as it's green, it will make her do good things in Arena. The more popular build is triple red though, so that's also definitely an option.
This is also yet another reason why I can't really show exact builds for each character in this List, it's more about colors than exact Supporters, with some exceptions like Armored Kurenai on Emily for giving her a mechanic she simply will not have any other way. For the most part, Main Supporters should focus on Invulnerability and Sub Supporters should focus on Damage Increase/Reduction in PvP content. Healing Supporters are nice too though (like NY Felicia on Rinko). And the Arena Weapons themselves are also 90% of the time the best choice to use.
Also, something else I wanted to say:
I agree with this 100%. I honestly don't understand why people still complain about Emily being too OP while there are literally bigger problems out there already. I personally think it's because Emily is such a good PvE character and most people will initially bring their PvE characters into PvP when they first dip their toes in the competitive water, so characters that have a shared build that's good for both PvE and PvP are just more seen there in general. And even without Armored Kurenai, Emily would still rank solidly in S Tier, probably in between Murasaki and Rinko. So people get to experience just how good she is from a very early point in the game already. But it doesn't mean she is necessarily better than other characters with dedicated PvP builds, she's just more popular.
If anything, I feel like Emily actually deserves a buff to the amount her Healing Field heals each tick, because Emily is supposed to be the nurse/medic, yet she practically can't get an additional effect on her Healing Field, only has a single dodge to even potentially trigger it in the first place (Shisui gets 2, ofcourse) and tends to not get more than 1 or 2 ticks of healing on average before she gets knocked out of the range anyway (except if she is Invulnerable). Emily can only ever dream her heal was as good as Shisui's lol. And Noah just constantly heals herself as well, albeit for Missing HP values (which is exactly what kept it balanced between Noah and Emily, but now Shisui just says "why not both").
But, regarding the builds on girls-taimanin, that you most often use, I will say that I don’t need all the build options, I need at least 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP, but the best ones. Will you share with me?