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And select a specific unit by double clicking them
Didnt try to double click in list of selected units, but anyway its not convenient to double click, and single click does nothing.
- You can cancel unit/upgrade by right clicking on the icons in the build queue. You can even remove build orders selectively by right-clicking specific ones.
AND
then being able to train units in each of them by clicking the unit to train.
So when i selected 4 barracks and click the spearman once, it trains one in each.
single-clicking units is for the sake of unit selection, selecting them out of the pool of units based on their HP.
hitting ESC to cancel a building selection and furthermore being able to select multiple buildings and hitting tab to cycle through them is just quality of life stuff. IMO it's much easier than trying to find a specific building in a list of buildings. you can just select what you need and hit a button to cancel.
as it were this plays like starcraft BW where you need to select every building individually to set rally points, and then when you need to set new rally points you need to do it again and again. most people already do not use control groups for their buildings, let alone click on building icons in UI for selection.
my suggestion is to develop a system where can simply select multiple buildings at a time.
honestly there are a lot of issues coming from long-time RTS vets like myself.
why can you not press shift+X to add units to a control group selection?
or hold shift and left click to deselect from a group?
the lack of those features takes away a good chunk of time by a player struggling with controls to do what they would like to do.
if you don't know what "cloning" is in RTS terms, please look it up.
there are a lot of little control things that make players more reliant on the "select all army" hotkey.
look, i'm not saying you shouldn't try to break the wheel or develop for your own game, but it has been this way in all main-title RTS for quite a lot of reasons.
Hi, a lot of these are still being worked on.
I just checked out the entire control scheme of SC2 and I have some questions about some of these suggestions.
"hitting ESC to cancel a building selection" in SC2 Escape does not deselect the building, in fact deselect is not a thing, it forces to always have something selected (which I am not a fan of at all). So just to clarify, you'd want Escape to simply unselect the currently selected units/buildings?
"if you don't know what "cloning" is in RTS terms, please look it up." I looked it up and nothing came up. Could you please elaborate?
Multi selecting buildings is already being worked on. Shift+X add to control group as well. We might even have that in for next patch for the demo, whenever that comes in.
Didn't know about shift-unselect, checked how it worked in SC2, will add it on the list.
Generally you keep Shift Pressed and then Press the Mousebutton for different things.
Clicking on a Unit not currently selected adds it to the selection, clicking a unit thats selected removes it from the selection.
This is especially useful (to me) when it comes to buildings.
For example when i have 4 Barracks and i have 3 of them close but one at an outpost, i can draw a frame around the first 3 or double click them (select all on screen) and then move my camera to the 4th barracks, press shift and click it, to add it to the selection.
I then have all 4 selected and can train units simultaniously in all 4.
If i just want 2 selected and draw a frame around the 3 barracks, i can shift click one of them to remove it from the selection.
Thats quite handy and i use this often in AoE2.
Other QoL features will be worked on after the demo.
there are a lot of good systems present already. basically, i see this as age of empires but with a hero system. including the challenges which are multiplayer, all of these are geniunely great ideas and the games that your inspiration comes from already feel good, you are just missing that bit of control polish. i'm anal about it because if it feels wrong or something is out of place or missing, it becomes extremely difficult to do anything like multitask or really just do what you want to do. i'm sure you understand that fiddling with controls takes away from tactics/strategy execution.
So just to clarify, you'd want Escape to simply unselect the currently selected units/buildings?
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no, while you can select multiple buildings and multiple units (the former you cannot do but dragging a box over your buildings), it needs to be easier to deselect individuals while maintaing the group. i'll explain more on what that means for "cloning" later on.
i'm simply trying to say here that ESC should be a default for cancelling an order on the building themselves. if it isn't default then another key. all of these hotkeys should be ingrained in the player. i'd consider adding the hotkey lettering to the icon itself.
when multiple buildings are selected, you'll probably want this hotkey to cancel the last issued order (production, research) and similarly, as MBS (multiple building selection), each order cycles through each building as it is in the selection. this much is obvious to you i'm sure.
onto cloning:
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https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Cloning
this video shows the basics on what it's used for with workers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Q9ghZbqpA
- let's say i want to send 8 worshippers from base to build a cluster of 8 watchtowers. the building plans are already placed, i want them to build them 2 at a time using 4 workers.
i would take the selection hotkey of 8 worshippers, issue a right click command to build one tower--then hold shift and left-click 4 times to deselect the remaining worshippers and finally right click to build the second tower.
from this position as they are working as individual groups, and easier to see, i can click-drag and send the groups of 4 to build the additional towers, or assign them their own hotkeys to check progress intermittently.
OR, you will eventually allow queued commands and as you were doing the initial cloning of the commands, i could send the first 8 to build 4 towers, then selecting the 4 and tell them to do the other 4.
the benefit to something like this is that you can do the cloning at any point of their movement. if there is no further input (let's say you are stressed for time), they will go ahead with building that one tower and there is as least progress. as the player increases in skill and have more time to give input, they can clone this command 7 times all while the worshippers are moving to location. it's for efficiency purposes, also to know exactly which worshipper is doing what.
as it is right now (and i'm sure you will address this at some point) idle workers have an odd and sometimes awkward interaction with building plans and commands issues after they have been issued commands. they'll walk back and return to idle at the shrine. that's why this level of control (deselection) as least this important, to keep yourself from having to babysit each individual worshipper, big projects and added projects currently add a lot of travel distance.
many other things you are already addressing or have likely thought about.
so, my remaining list of suggestions as of now include:
- in the command card, single left click to select an individual unit for micro reasons.
- shift + left click deselect
- command queue
- esc to cancel/raze buildings and also to cancel production/research queue
- queued orders/building
- worshipper AI rules are finetuned for how they react to pending projects when their initial order is finished. (likely to do with priority)
- lettering on command card icons to denote hotkeys
- i believe worshippers should have the build command on their own, addition to the current way of globally building. this way, when queued commands are added, you may have a worshipper out there as a dedicated builder.
- balance-wise, the first abilities on heroes cannot be global depending on vision. you are able to harass and gain value over an opponent simply by having vision. the hero can be anywhere on the map. it's extremely egregious for the first hero. solar flare has enough damage to kill most things (and workers) early game. this should be punished by having the hero in position to do so, so there's at least the counterplay of positioning ranged units in front to deny vision or deal damage.
- unit collision should be more prominent. currently, the game more or less plays like starcraft 2 in high unit count situations--the units will tend to ball up into a clump but it's extremely difficult to issue commands to the units without having them idle. one approach is to add the attack command back in vs what is there currently with ctrl + right click. ctrl + right click IMO is too high a barrier for doing rapid organization and minute adjustments quickly, like spreading out your units before an AOE is to hit. it may not seem like such a problem, but the attack command issue is something a player does thousands of times throughout a game.
- more on previous point, you may opt to have AI automatically take action in ensuring y our units will formation up according to type. tanks/fighters up front, skirmishers behind, ranged further back. if you do not want that then simple, there will have to be slightly more collision to each unit so it's easier to differentiate them and space them out, especially for more complicated maneuvers.
- i believe there should be a difference between halt and stop. i'm not sure the current interactions with halt, but the purpose of stop in RTS is to have the unit stop in place but retain aggressive stance. whereas halt or hold-position is to have them remain still and lose aggression flag so enemies will prioritize army units instead. this is useful for positioning workers as impenetrable walls for your military units in early game situations, forcing your opponent to take manual control to target fire workers to create a path.
currently you have stances, i do not have much input for that other than that it's unintuitive at it is, and probably unnecessary.
- players want to be able to have transferrable skills between games of similar genre. using an entirely new control scheme for one game will detract from their ability to play other games. maybe it's intentional in different ways, but try not to make it hard on players to adjust without diving deep into your game.
- finally, screen hotkeys are important. traditionally only in blizzard games, it would be shift + F-keys to set a camera hotkey, F-key to go back. you have different abilities as f-keys so there should be some alternative. maybe F5-F10. as inaccessible as that would be, it's still an important feature to have when you are defending multiple points, or you just want to check your shrine for worshippers.
- a very prominent way to see your amount of idle worshippers and to select them without having to go back to your shrine. take '~' for example. currently you have an all-army hotkey at F1. this would be the same thing but for idle workers which would include those which are slated to head home to idle and pray.
-reach out to players like Grubby, Day9 to try your product when you are confident. they are well known and reputable in the RTS community.
I think one problem that you have with how the game controls is that you refer to typical RTS where workers are actual units.
Here however Workers are more like indirect resources.
They work like a Boardgame Workerplacement Mechanic.
In that sense you dont drag a frame around a group of 4 workers to then assign them to new building jobs or queue their jobs.
You click the building and assign an "Open Job" of construction to it.
As soon as a worker appears or has free time, that worker might pick up the task.
Instead of selecting your workers individually and sending them to build, you just click the build button as often as you want until you have as many workers applied to it as you want.
Which is far easier and streamlined than using individual control.
Workers in this game are selectable but dont act like typical workers in other RTS.
Thats on one hand positive, on the other hand negative.
The negatives are, that building often is clunky and worker assignment and how their pick and perform their tasks is suboptimal.
I think they can streamline this far better and optimize the AI and Logic behind this.
Especially since i often found that building jobs were left unattended for a long time although i had available workers at my Shrine.
This is no counter argument to your point. But i felt its relevant context because you seem to interpret Workers in this game more like Workers in Warcraft, but reality is, that they are more like Workers in Northgard but even less and thats why the typical control logics possibly dont work well here.
This isnt Starcraft and your workers arent Starcraft Workers.
Add Polish language please <3
I agree and disagree here. First, are you referring to the Level 1 ability or Solar Fury(the massive damage AoE)? If it is the latter, that is not early game and, IMO, the game should be relatively over by the time you get access to that. If it is the former, your hero does need to be within range to use it and have vision. Furthermore it has a fairly long cooldown(most engagements are over before CD), while it does 1-shot(or nearly so) workers and "T1s" it's a single target. So I think it is fairly balanced for what it is.(compared to Teal Tower/Turret power)
Also, with regard to "global" abilities... games like Age of Mythology and C&C had global abilities(usually only a single use) that didn't even need vision. These were strong but you also had them too. IMO, it's part of the game and balanced around the idea that you have your own kind of global things.
I actually really hate that "feature" in RTS games that feature that. It's like what people did in WarCraft 3 with Invisible units. You'd try to A-Move or maneuver units only for their pathing to be borked or sit there because there were units blocking their path they couldn't attack/see. Granted, there doesn't seem to be invisibility in this game but the functionality is the same. I feel a simple A-Move should have units auto attack any units, including worshipers, in their way to the spot your designated. Perhaps that's a personal preference but there are a lot of RTS games where such micro isn't necessary. I mean, yes, it is a tactic and can be very effective and easily a "skill issue" but I don't believe it should be "a thing" in more macro orientated games.
This I think is more of a preference thing. Would it be nice? Yes. But, IMO, this is a slippery slope since then those same players will typically start looking at the game as if it were X game simply because it plays somewhat similar and has the same hotkeys/controls. Godsworn is not Age of Empires nor is it StarCraft. It shouldn't be Age of Empires or StarCraft, etc.
That said, the controls shouldn't be overly obtuse or confusing. IMO, it should be intuitive in the sense that "B is for build menu, A is for attack" etc. Perhaps, again, this is a personal preference on my part as controls for a game like Supreme Commander or CoH are different from StarCraft and Age of Empires.
You sorta of already have that. In the top portion of the screen you can see the number counts for worshipers currently worshipping(basically idle), how many are doing a function(gathering/building) and your total amount.
Though, if you play very aggressively with your worshipers, I can understand how it gets difficult to track them all, especially if you make them hold in place or dither. At least I had some difficulty when I was doing that and handling engagements elsewhere.
TLDR: I guess my issue with some of these valid criticisms people are saying is due to it seeming like they want Godsworn to play more like Age of Empires or WarCraft... when I think Godsworn is trying to be more between the two styles of game. Similar to how Age of Mythology plays more like StarCraft than Age of Empires. It still features many of the same elements and gameplay of Age of Empires but it is significantly more compact and streamlined like StarCraft.