ME3 endings - your theories, decisions, interpretations

[Doc_Hotpants]

Hi all,

Would love to discuss the endings you chose, and why (no right or wrong either way, please play nice, everyone). (sorry for the following wall of text, please bear with me)

Do you choose different endings depending on whether you're doing a Paragon or Renegade playthrough? Or do you choose differently when you play BroShep or FemShep?

Do you believe there will be a canon ending defined for the ME game in pre-production right now? Which one do you think that would be, if so? (It would be lovely if we could discuss this without commenting on whether or not we think it will be a good game, or what everyone thinks of Bioware).

What's your personal headcanon around the ending you chose? Do you subscribe to the Indoctrination Theory? Or is the ending "real"? Does the IT influence your choice for the ending?

Personally, I play Paragon with a hint of Renegade in the later stages of each game. I help cure the Genophage and broker peace between Quarians and the Geth. I also destroy the Reaper Base and try to do as many side quests as I can.

I play as FemShep (always) and I always choose Destroy because this is what Shep's explicit goal was all through the games: destroy the Reapers. (again: it's perfectly fine if you choose differently!)

My personal headcanon: The starchild is likely a figment of Shep's imagination at the end as she's close to death after being hit by the Reaper's beam. Barely conscious, the mental imagery helps her finish the job while fighting last-ditch attempts at the Reapers' indoctrination. In her mind, she weighs the different options as represented by the starchild. So her mind is warring with herself as to what to do with the power she has at that moment (and the consequences each choice would entail). And in my playthrough she chooses to do what she came to do.

In my opinion, this explanation fits all scenarios. The starchild isn't lying but might be wrong (about destroying all synthetic life). The Reapers finish what they came to do if you refuse to decide (or rather physically/mentally can't due to your injuries, represented by simply not doing anything). Having the power to choose synthesis or control (and weighing the consequences as represented by the starchild explaining it) simply because she made it to the console that enables that.

Is my headcanon correct? I dunno. It works for me as an explanation (including as to why the Destroy ending does not necessarily mean the end of all synth life).

As for "the canon ending" - I have no idea. For practical purposes, they might have to define one, I think. Otherwise, they would have to spend the time and money to facilitate story and dialog for all possibilities (assuming Shep will be in the next game). And personally, I believe if they define one canon ending, it will likely be Destroy. Rehashing the Reapers in the new game would be kind of boring and probably impossible to fulfill fanbase's expectations due to lore interpretations etc. And with the Reapers gone, they would be able to introduce a new, different big bad that might want to take advantage of a universe weakened by the result of the destruction.

Anyway... Would be lovely to have a friendly and open discussion on all of this. Looking forward to your responses, theories, speculations, interpretations, headcanons and ideas.

[Doppelganger]

Anything other than "Destroy" is Shep being indoctrinated into doing the reapers will.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

And there you have it, proof of indoctrination theory. You'd rather join the terrorist organization that was trying to genocide a species (their own at that) to make their own reaper than give up your (Shepard's) shot at attaining power.

Yes, because I don't lack vision. TIM is the only organic character in the series who had actual vision, I respect him infinitely more than I do the stooges of the Alliance or the council. I would be crazy not to, given what I've seen from playing the trilogy lol. Everything is a means to an end, sacrificing pawns in order to achieve your goals is fair play in war.

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

My Shepard is willing to sacrifice everything to destroy the Reaper threat once and for all, not just for my sake but the sake of the universe. A fundamental disagreement indeed.

If this is true, then the only disagreement between us is about methods. You're willing to sacrifice everything to destroy that which you deem a threat to you, I am willing to sacrifice anything to control that which I see as a potential means to usher in my vision.

At the end of the day, you're no better than you think I am, the only difference is your ending has you committing genocide whereas my ending has me achieving peace without getting my hands dirty with the blood of entire races.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Doc_Hotpants:

It's 2 am here, so I really have to try to get some sleep before I can respond in a bit more detail on a couple of points you made.

Let me just say that this is not a US high school debate class that makes it impossible to agree with anyone or anything. I am just trying to have some fun in the wider context of a game I am enjoying.

Not that anyone has to follow that wish, but I specifically asked for discussion, not for "defend your position as if the person you're talking to is a Reaper that'll steal your lunch bread".

Discussion (to me) is a means to expand one's horizon, to learn new stuff, create ideas together, and maybe in the end leave feeling good about the virtual connection you made (even if you end up disagreeing) and the time spent with it.

Understood. If this is becoming too much for you, you can always stop interacting with me, or even block me. I won't mind.

Sorry, but I will absolutely not cede ground to the Destroy fanboys in this debate, regardless of your personal wishes. You decided to make the topic about the endings, knowing full well how controversial it would be, so you bear responsibility for initiating a debate, whether you were aware of it or not. I'll be here if you decide to take this seriously.

[di eshor ribly]

Originally posted by Superbia:

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

And there you have it, proof of indoctrination theory. You'd rather join the terrorist organization that was trying to genocide a species (their own at that) to make their own reaper than give up your (Shepard's) shot at attaining power.

Yes, because I don't lack vision. TIM is the only organic character in the series who had actual vision, I respect him infinitely more than I do the stooges of the Alliance or the council. I would be crazy not to, given what I've seen from playing the trilogy lol. Everything is a means to an end, sacrificing pawns in order to achieve your goals is fair play in war.

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

My Shepard is willing to sacrifice everything to destroy the Reaper threat once and for all, not just for my sake but the sake of the universe. A fundamental disagreement indeed.

If this is true, then the only disagreement between us is about methods. You're willing to sacrifice everything to destroy that which you deem a threat to you, I am willing to sacrifice anything to control that which I see as a potential means to usher in my vision.

At the end of the day, you're no better than you think I am, the only difference is your ending has you committing genocide whereas my ending has me achieving peace without getting my hands dirty with the blood of entire races.

Laughable at best. The blood of not just your own species that you've sacrificed along the way, but any other that resists. Congratulations, you are the authoritarian dictator subjugating the galaxy with no one to stop them. The very thing you've been denigrating through the whole thread. A prime example of a Shepard that does not deserve such power.

At least you didn't get your hands dirty. You used the Reaper's hands.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

Laughable at best. The blood of not just your own species that you've sacrificed along the way, but any other that resists. Congratulations, you are the authoritarian dictator subjugating the galaxy with no one to stop them. The very thing you've been denigrating through the whole thread. A prime example of a Shepard that does not deserve such power.

At least you didn't get your hands dirty. You used the Reaper's hands.

You can say it's laughable but that doesn't really do anything to advance your position in this debate lol.

Blood will be spilled one way or another in war, especially a war with a race so advanced that a single member can wipe out entire cities with ease. Why throw away every life trying to mindlessly fight the Reapers when I can strive to control them? At worst case scenario, I'll be selfish with it and become the tyrant you describe. At best case scenario, I'll be the benevolent god this world has always craved. Either way, it beats committing genocide for the sake of "winning" in the short term, only to then plunge the galaxy in darkness.

It's always hilarious seeing Destroy fanboys think they have the moral high ground, I will say that lol.

[di eshor ribly]

You choose to enslave the Reapers, bend them to your will and use them against those who don't share "your vision".

What moral high ground do you have?

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

You choose to enslave the Reapers, bend them to your will and use them against those who don't share "your vision".

What moral high ground do you have?

"Enslaving the Reapers" is a naive way of looking at it. The Reapers were never free to begin with.

Reapers are synthetics, the same rules that apply to organics don't apply to them. They were built by the Leviathans for the purpose of preserving life. Their entire existence has been them following their programming in the way they determined was best. Until Shepard came along, no one could have stopped them. When Shepard found a way and managed to prove himself to the Catalyst, he became a candidate for ascension.

In reality, the only being that ultimately can be deemed "free" is the Catalyst, which is the collective consciousness and accumulated knowledge of the Reapers made manifest in the form of an AI. If that being deemed Shepard worthy of taking over, who would be more qualified to protest that?

[di eshor ribly]

Uh-huh. Now tell me. When the Reapers came calling, the galaxy sent Shepard to stop them.

Who are they going to send to stop Shepard *and* the Reapers?

The player in the next ME game from the sounds of your argument. Meaning Control is the canon ending, and Shepard failed.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

Uh-huh. Now tell me. When the Reapers came calling, the galaxy sent Shepard to stop them.

Who are they going to send to stop Shepard *and* the Reapers?

The player in the next ME game from the sounds of your argument. Meaning Control is the canon ending, and Shepard failed.

Lol, you amuse me. I'll grant you, that's the best fanfic I've seen come out of a Destroy fanboy, so props for that.

As I said, I really hope they don't canonize any of the 3 endings of ME3, since that would alienate everyone who picked a different ending and has been experiencing the OT with that ending as their personal choice for 13 years as of today. It would be a real slap in the face of fans and Bioware cannot afford that.

This whole debate is ultimately pointless, but for argument's sake, I'm inclined to debunk anyone who claims Destroy is not the worst ending by a landslide. Chaos can never be a good ending, seeing people try to rationalize it always amuses and slightly disturbs me, though. That you would justify genocide just to see your beloved organic Shepard take a final breath is quite dark, man.

[di eshor ribly]

Equally as disturbing to me that you would justify a tyrannical dictator-Shep, but that's the point of discussion. I wouldn't call myself a fanboy either, I hope throughout the thread I showed at least some deeper thought into the choices besides "lol big boom".

At least from my viewpoint, I'm a 40-something year old ex military dude. When we got sent out to deal with a threat we didn't personally take over the enemy faction and start talking about "our vision." We showed up, did our job, and went home.

That being said, unless they place the next ME in a time period before the Reaper invasion, or alternate dimension nonsense, they would have to come to some conclusion for it one way or another. Considering it's already been set some time afterwards (and Liara was teased)... like it or not one of the endings is going to have to be canonized.

[di eshor ribly]

Originally posted by Superbia:

Chaos can never be a good ending

As for this, life is chaos. Life grows and evolves with untold possibilities.
Order is stagnation. Everything in it's place, no deviation, no improvement, no growth. It sounds terribly boring.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

As for this, life is chaos. Life grows and evolves with untold possibilities.
Order is stagnation. Everything in it's place, no deviation, no improvement, no growth. It sounds terribly boring.

Spoken like a true anarchist. I would have thought an ex army who claims to have combat experience would know better, tsk tsk.

[di eshor ribly]

Not quite an anarchist, at least not in the way you are insinuating. The universe is anarchy, civilization and order are constructs of those "reckless and greedy meatbags" you mentioned. As with all things moderation is key. Too much chaos and everything collapses, too much order and everything stagnates and atrophies. Balance. Equilibrium.

Even if Shep "ascends" he is still a mortal consciousness, with all the strengths and flaws he had before the Big Zap. You can't tell me a Mindoir survivor Shep wouldn't wipe out what was left of the Batarians to "preserve order" right? More chaos, death, the genocide of a species. It's nothing more than a continuation of the cycle.

Embrace the chaos, grow beyond what the Reapers decided was the arbitrary apex point of allowable civilization.

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

Not quite an anarchist, at least not in the way you are insinuating. The universe is anarchy, civilization and order are constructs of those "reckless and greedy meatbags" you mentioned. As with all things moderation is key. Too much chaos and everything collapses, too much order and everything stagnates and atrophies. Balance. Equilibrium.

Even if Shep "ascends" he is still a mortal consciousness, with all the strengths and flaws he had before the Big Zap. You can't tell me a Mindoir survivor Shep wouldn't wipe out what was left of the Batarians to "preserve order" right? More chaos, death, the genocide of a species. It's nothing more than a continuation of the cycle.

Embrace the chaos, grow beyond what the Reapers decided was the arbitrary apex point of allowable civilization.

Without hierarchical structures, society cannot function. Without society, we are little more than animals, tearing at each other's throats over a can of peas. I don't think many people will agree with you that that's somehow preferable to what you consider "stagnation", but hey, you're free to disagree from the comfort of your home and the security that this ordered society provides you.

As for the rest, again, you're just cherry picking and trying to frame everything in the most negative light. Making the absurd determination that a colonist background Shepard would still somehow hold on to a grudge from when he was an organic pustule is comical, but hardly worth a serious debunking. It's just hypotheticals, as I said, that's all your side has. Meanwhile, I have thoroughly exposed just how bad the Destroy ending is, the results of it on the galaxy would be detrimental, so I think my work here is done for the moment. Until someone with an actual argument comes along to try to debate me on this, I consider myself the victor of this debate.

[di eshor ribly]

"Exposed just how bad the Destroy ending is" how? The destruction of the synthetics which can be rebuilt or reprogrammed later (with some casualties such as unique AI like EDI)? The destruction of the relays (the teaser showed Asari building new ones)?

No more reapers to impede the progress of civilization. The losses are a minor set back in the scale of galactic history. Zero risk of Shep going bad or the Reapers using synthesis as a backdoor hack.

But hey, enjoy ordering your flying holocausts around to assert "your vision", I suppose. I'll be enjoying my status as Galactic Hero, Destroyer of the Reapers.