*spoiler warning* What is the recent take on the "lost" ME3 Dark Matter ending/story line and the ending overall? Also some other stuff

[RobotParty]

I will be honest, I love Mass Effect and I don't hate ME 3's ending. It is a bit insulting from a gameplay standpoint but thematically it fits as an end to Shepard's journey as a self-sacrificial martyr for the sake of all sentient life, but not so much for literally everyone in the series. I was going to do a whole paragraph about this part but it's been done so many times, so all I'll say is that obviously the ending and later portions of ME3 were rushed. I won't join the horde and throw blame. I will say though, some of ME3's content is very good.

Specifically, the Leviathan DLC I feel is actually pretty enlightening and is in-line with ME3's(perhaps all of ME?) theme of "synthetic life will always rebel/fight against organic life". I also think that sometimes what the Leviathan's say is misunderstood. They were, like the Protheans, a tyrannical ruling species that demanded tribute from all 'inferior' races, who then created synthetic life to help them defend themselves, which then lead to war between the creators and the synthetics. They then created the catalyst to preserve all organic life, that then created the first reaper via the Leviathans, and all further non-specific-purpose reapers are built in their image. It's also interesting to note that they are explicitlyorganic-synthetic creations. It gets a little lost on what the importance of all this is in regards to the overall ending but I think it does provide a lot of context/back story to the ending.

As a small tangent, the Catalyst is essentially a supercomputer, and I personally headcanon that it gives validity to the 'supercomputer planet'(Ploba) theory. I suppose the Reapers are more of a hive-mind/collective but the idea is there.

I have the unpopular opinion that I believe the inconsistencies with the Catalyst's logic and methods is intentional, to an extent. Reminder that I do think that ME3 was rushed and is overall not as refined and deep as it could have been, but it would be silly to suggest that it is a bad game. The inconsistencies are many but I think the most telling are the fact that you can broker a peace between Geth and Quarians(that unfortunately has no weight on the final confrontation, but it could be implied that there is still a potential for conflict in the future) and the hypocrisy in their methods. Specifically the fact that the synthetic life were originally being created by the organics to defend themselves against the Leviathans, and the Reapers are in the same exact position as the Leviathans with every cycle they go through. They are, in fact, just another 'species' that aggressively rules over those 'inferior' to them, but with some deluded and flawed goal(built-in programming). The irony is staggering. I do think it is on purpose though, it feels like the devs wanted the ending to show that even a purely synthetic(a literal AI) is so flawed that it can't see the deeper implications and nuances of what it is trying to accomplish and how. EDI even has the same sort of growth in ME3, but more so on organic aspects of life, e.g. purpose of being and love/affection.

The point of this whole thread though is the Dark Matter ending:

Originally posted by FOR_SCIENCE:

Can someone explain this dark energy ending to me? just wondering what everyone is talking about here.

Well, it's not particularly clear.

The basic idea was that Bioware's trademark 'twist' ending (is it still a twist if you see it coming?) for the ME series was going to be that Mass Effect technology was basically poisoning the galaxy with dark energy. The original species that made the first reaper discovered that, if mass effect tech was periodically shut down, the galaxy could recover in the intermittent time.

Now, their plan was to create the reapers and place every member of the most advanced races into them. Every 50,000 years or so the reapers would harvest whichever civilization got the farthest in their cycle, and then they would retreat to dark space to let the dark energy dissipate and try and solve the problem. So they created Harbinger, the very first Reaper, and started the cycles.

In ME1, however, it's revealed that the Protheans ensured this cycle didn't go as planned with the decapitating strike, so the cycle was delayed by... eh, a while. Not sure of the exact number, but at the very least he tried to start the Rachni wars, so a few centuries or more. There's evidence that the cycle began late, and Sovereign was starting to grow desperate. The reason the reapers rushed and made so many mistakes was supposed to be because they were running out of time to harvest that cycle... and then there were the humans.

Why or how isn't clear (something to do with humanity's genetic diversity mentioned most in Mordin's loyalty mission), but apparently if the Reapers harvested the human race and made a reaper out of them, that reaper would be the final key to solving the DE problem. That's why the collectors were trying to create a human reaper on their own - so that the human reaper could solve it. But they failed, due in no small part to Shepard.

Your final choice at the end given this ending would've been: -Harvest the most/all of the human race, creating a Reaper that can solve the DE problem for everyone. -Tell the reapers 'screw you', kill them, and solve the DE problem on your own within the century or two left before DE consumed the galaxy.

Assuming they'd gone with this ending, Dark Energy stuff would be sprinkled all throughout the story, as well as the Reapers' swift, clumsy and often desperate actions. It's too late now, obviously, since it's been almost entirely dropped but many think this would've been a better ending to go with.

Ironically enough, this actually provides a much more interesting and in-depth purpose the Reapers serve, and also is actually relevant to the title "Mass Effect". Essentially what's being said, I believe, is that all of the dark-matter-based Mass Effect technology was destroying the universe and so the Reapers wanted to stop the literal destruction of everything. I still think this is very half-baked and it would have needed a lot more working to figure it out, but it was also very relevant and mentioned quite a bit in both ME 1 & 2, so it was being built up, some-what, as a behind-the-scenes storyline.

In terms of the actual science, my understanding, which is very poor, is that we know pretty much nothing about dark matter but it is all matter that isn't visible/doesn't interact with light. It's still something that is to be researched and understood, but I can only assume that even in 2012 it wasn't a high priority to take a purely hypothetical concept and make it up as they go. It's sort of like with time travel where usually the go-to is "well all you need to do is go faster than the speed of light and that's all!". It's so hard to create a story around a concept that we know nothing about and that you essentially have to invent/produce yourself. Similar situation to when people say that making alien architecture/biology(aka stuff that is unrecognisable to what we currently take inspiration from, all of Mass Effect's species are very recognisable for example).

Mass Effect Andromeda just muddies the water with the discussion of Mass Effect, and mostly because they tried to bring the overall world of Mass Effect to an entire other galaxy(the Andromeda galaxy, neighbour to the Milky Way galaxy, our own galaxy) but have a story that is removed from the previous games. It does, however, introduce other inter-galactic dramas that threaten entire existences of races. The real issue with Andromeda is that it is, naturally, compared to the original trilogy but is entirely removed from it. I have not played Andromeda yet but doing a tiny amount of research(via the mass effect wiki, sue me) shows that they did continue the themes of dark matter being force of mystery in the world of Mass Effect. Specifically, the description of the "Scourge" is that it's a "dark energy cloud" or "charged absence". Although the wiki also says it doesn't act the way dark energy is *said* that it would, so I dunno. Also not clear if the wiki's description is explicitly taken from the game, it might just be paraphrasing. There is also a reference being credited to Mac Walters, stating that it is not the source of the Reapers, so it just implies there could be *more* reaper-like threats in existence.

With Andromeda, and hopefully more games in the future, there's a question that has always been in my minds in regards to the Reapers. Where do they go after every cycle? It is said they go to "dark space". Dark space is, in simple terms, the space between galaxies. The parts of space that are devoid of stars. In ME2, the ending cutscene shows the reapers approaching the milky way galaxy, and realistically reaper's don't move any faster than I would expect any other fast space ship to move, and they also need to conserve energy(which is why they hibernate in dark space where they "can't" be reached). The implication with the cutscene is that the reapers were travelling through dark space to the milky way galaxy for *2 entire years* starting from the end of Mass Effect 1. This implies they were *not* on the very edge of the Milky Way, So where were they? It seems like the Reapers were a significant distance away, and you'd think they would encounter some other greatly advanced civilisation. Just something that has always bothered me. I'm sure they never intended to answer this big mystery and it probably doesn't matter.

Finally, something I thought about while playing ME3. Bioware specifically really tries to stick with what it knows, and if you really think about it. Dragon Age and Mass Effect have a few similarities. I haven't thought about this too deeply, but Bioware has remained pretty consistent and in-depth with their Dragon Age series, so I can't fault them for lack of foresight and planning. In Dragon Age, the main stories and themes currently centre around 2 antagonists:

The Dread Wolf(Fen'Harel, basically the Trickster God of Dragon Age). I don't remember his lore too well but I recall that he is the god that tricked both the 'good' and 'bad' gods by sealing them both in their respective realms, and so far in the Dragon Age lore he seems to be a big antagonist for possibly everything in the overall lore. I'm not sure where I would place him in regards to Mass Effect, but I do see him as a sort of catalyst-like personality, and I did read something somewhere that he is, in reality, more of a "god of rebellion" and, in a very weird roundabout way, the Catalyst is all about rebellion. I mean it *wanted* Shepard to get to it and just make a damn choice!!!

The Magisters(specifically the magisters, that worshipped dragons as gods, it gets a little complicated here as in Dragon Age not *all* dragons are gods but "The Old Gods" took the form of dragons and were worshipped *as* gods) that breached The Fade and corrupted it, creating the Darkspawn. You face them in essentially every game and *technically* it's sort of revealed in DA:O but more so DA2. It gets a little fuzzy here with the exact details in the lore, but *presumably* they were 'cursed' or 'corrupted' by the Golden City they tried to invade, so I would honestly put them in an overall sort of 'reaper' role but they aren't *the* reapers. That's still a position Dragon Age has to fill, but the Darkspawn does seem to be more of a disease, so perhaps there's more "organic" metaphors here for what they represent lol.

Just some little brain work I did when thinking of common themes and patterns that are shared between the two games. My points is more about Bioware's love of creating worlds and stories about the characters and the the world they live in versus evils (tangible or non-tangible) that threaten their autonomy and free will. That's big in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Two vastly different games overall, though.

There's a lot more, but it's more mundane stuff e.g. "oh wow look a race that is purely militant(turians)" that tends to be more universal in concept. There is a theory that Klendagon is the same moon as one of the two in Dragon Age as it has a similar marking on it, but the wiki states that the artwork, visible from Presrop's surface, is a real-life depiction of Mars and the Valles Marineris, which is a system of canyons visible on Mars' surface. This could also be the case with Dragon Age.

TL;DR I dunno, you gotta read it all honestly. This isn't a 2-bite conversation.

[RobotParty]

Also I completely forgot to put this into the dark space part: The reapers are implied to be able to warp into the Citadel's relay location *from dark space*. After ME1, the reapers were required to physically move towards the galaxy and invade that way, but the question becomes: Where is the relay they jump from and what the hell is there? Just a relay thrown out in the middle of dark space?

[Jeebs]

Originally posted by RobotParty:

Also I completely forgot to put this into the dark space part: The reapers are implied to be able to warp into the Citadel's relay location *from dark space*. After ME1, the reapers were required to physically move towards the galaxy and invade that way, but the question becomes: Where is the relay they jump from and what the hell is there? Just a relay thrown out in the middle of dark space?

Yeah, that was my understanding. When you talk to Vigil near the end of ME1, it explains that the Reapers retreat to dark space through the citadel relay. It's not explicitly stated, but the logical conclusion is that they would have a relay somewhere out there that they use to return/retreat. Presumably it only works with their Reaper IFF system, like the Omega relay.

With no heat signatures to look for and no hints as to which direction to even go in, they wouldn't have to be that far out from the galaxy to be safe. It takes them approximately 3 years to reach the edge of the galaxy, but it's not clear whether they were travelling at FTL or sublight. Either way, they wouldn't be too far out and wouldn't need to be.

It would be incredibly hard to spot a bunch of dormant Reapers in the inter-galactic void. Presumably whatever mass effect relay they use to travel back and forth could go dormant along with the Reapers, until they get the signal from the citadel. If anything, that could explain why they have to travel to the galaxy on their own, instead of just jumping to a different relay. But none of this is ever said in the game, so all we can do is speculate.

[RobotParty]

Originally posted by Jeebs:

Originally posted by RobotParty:

Also I completely forgot to put this into the dark space part: The reapers are implied to be able to warp into the Citadel's relay location *from dark space*. After ME1, the reapers were required to physically move towards the galaxy and invade that way, but the question becomes: Where is the relay they jump from and what the hell is there? Just a relay thrown out in the middle of dark space?

Yeah, that was my understanding. When you talk to Vigil near the end of ME1, it explains that the Reapers retreat to dark space through the citadel relay. It's not explicitly stated, but the logical conclusion is that they would have a relay somewhere out there that they use to return/retreat. Presumably it only works with their Reaper IFF system, like the Omega relay.

With no heat signatures to look for and no hints as to which direction to even go in, they wouldn't have to be that far out from the galaxy to be safe. It takes them approximately 3 years to reach the edge of the galaxy, but it's not clear whether they were travelling at FTL or sublight. Either way, they wouldn't be too far out and wouldn't need to be.

It would be incredibly hard to spot a bunch of dormant Reapers in the inter-galactic void. Presumably whatever mass effect relay they use to travel back and forth could go dormant along with the Reapers, until they get the signal from the citadel. If anything, that could explain why they have to travel to the galaxy on their own, instead of just jumping to a different relay. But none of this is ever said in the game, so all we can do is speculate.

Yeah, like there's that "black knight UFO" that exists around Earth's orbit (I forget if that's been "solved" or figured out or w/e) is very difficult to see I believe, because it is of a particularly uh... very dark colour lol. The Reapers are of a very similar colour and even in cutscenes and whatnot they are supposed to be difficult to see? All other ships tend to be colourful and easier to see, which I believe is why one of the data entries regarding space combat mentions this.

I did make a sort of goof in my main post but I didn't exactly do the math. Looking it up, the reapers obviously use FTL as well but it's much more efficient/advanced. I'm seeing on the wiki that reapers "are believed to be capable of travelling nearly 30 light-years in 24 hours" which is uh... very fast? I can't find, from a quick google search, what the conversion would be to km/miles but the 30-light years in 24 hours seems to be 283,821,914,177,424,000 meters (source: wiki).

I imagine that, because they travelled without the use of the relays, they must have travelled a *very* long distance because I recall(I believe it's in 2 or 3) a specific discussion that states they were travelling towards the milky way galaxy *since the end of ME1, when their relay plans were foiled*.

[Jeebs]

Well, if you're interested in doing the math, it's 3 years between the end of ME1 and the start of ME3. 30 Ly a day for three years should be 32,872.5 Ly. Technically the Reapers reach the Milky Way shortly before the start of ME3. A month or two before, maybe? I forget if it's clearly stated, but I think they mention it when Anderson is talking to Ash/Kaiden at the beginning of ME3.

You could estimate it at around 30k light years, for the sake of argument. That's actually a pretty small distance, on a cosmic scale. Wouldn't even get you halfway across the galaxy. Still far enough away that they would be invisible. If you consider the lore, we had a mass relay in our solar system for all of human history and no one found it until humanity discovered the Prothean archives on Mars. If we couldn't see one in our own solar system, there's no chance of spotting one in the intergalactic void.