did Bioware Retcon Ashley's redemption arc?

[tahunua]

ok people I am going through my second LE playthough of ME1 and have several playthroughs of the original, and I just encountered a conversation I've never had before. talking with Ashley, I had the option for a renegade conversation to re-inforce Ashley's racist beliefs or a Paragon option to convince her that Alien Lives Matter. I've never seen this before. is this a retcon added with the LE? I've run into little conversation strips here and there that I'm pretty sure weren't in any of my original playthroughs but this is by far the most "game changing" as far as making Ashley a somewhat likable character again... at least as far as ME 1 is concerned.

[CursedPanther]

As far as anyone can tell, no dialogue has been changed or added in LE. Bioware sure as hell didn't hire the original actors to redo any of the lines.

Most likely you've missed it previously.

[MadMinstrel]

Originally posted by tahunua:

I had the option for a renegade conversation to re-inforce Ashley's racist beliefs or a Paragon option to convince her that Alien Lives Matter.

Nope, that was always there. Remember it from my first playthrough on the Xbox 360 on launch.

[Izlude]

Originally posted by tahunua:

ok people I am going through my second LE playthough of ME1 and have several playthroughs of the original, and I just encountered a conversation I've never had before. talking with Ashley, I had the option for a renegade conversation to re-inforce Ashley's racist beliefs or a Paragon option to convince her that Alien Lives Matter. I've never seen this before. is this a retcon added with the LE? I've run into little conversation strips here and there that I'm pretty sure weren't in any of my original playthroughs but this is by far the most "game changing" as far as making Ashley a somewhat likable character again... at least as far as ME 1 is concerned.

Nah that was always there and I always pick that option in every playthrough. The council are proof that Ash is right about aliens.

Shep tells the council about Saren and no one listens to him since he is human
Shep then tells the council about the reapers and they dont listen since he is human
A Reaper combined with Geth forces attack the citadel
Not long after Shep saves their lives they are like "lol what reaper? stupid human, reapers arent real" Shep then tells the council about the collectors and once again they still dont listen. Then when Batarians are even fighting reapers the council still tries to act like they dont exist and wont even admit the reapers are real until after a Palavan is being assaulted by reapers. Funniest part is they make so many derogatory comments towards humans for simply not being a Turian or an Asari.


It takes the reapers showing up in force to slaughter millions on multiple planets before the council will even admit that Shep isnt wrong whereas Saren is instantly believed by the council despite that he flies around in a Reaper that they think is just a ship, keep in mind there is video footage of his "ship" on Eden Prime and there were witnesses to Saren shooting the other specter. But since the witness is human they just pretend that witness is not credible.

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

Originally posted by Philogosten:

Nah that was always there and I always pick that option in every playthrough. The council are proof that Ash is right about aliens.

B A S E D

[N7_Shadow]

Originally posted by tahunua:

ok people I am going through my second LE playthough of ME1 and have several playthroughs of the original, and I just encountered a conversation I've never had before. talking with Ashley, I had the option for a renegade conversation to re-inforce Ashley's racist beliefs or a Paragon option to convince her that Alien Lives Matter. I've never seen this before. is this a retcon added with the LE? I've run into little conversation strips here and there that I'm pretty sure weren't in any of my original playthroughs but this is by far the most "game changing" as far as making Ashley a somewhat likable character again... at least as far as ME 1 is concerned.

Your mistake is thinking she had racist views. A Dev in an interview admitted they never meant for us to think Ashley is a space racist. In short, she is not, and never was.

First, let me say that there are only two lines that people assume, make her racist.

Line #1. She has a problem with Aliens onboard the Normandy, and we must note that they aren't just on the Normandy, they have full, free range of the ship. One is in Engineering, one of the most sensitive places on the ship. Two are in the Hangar, around sensitive equipment, and another is in Medical. Another sensitive area of the ship.

In reality...I know...I was in the Navy for 20 years, and was on the first U.S. Carrier to have a Russian Helicopter land on it...seeing those Russians walking around our ship was a very weird feeling...and they were being escorted everywhere they went, and had very limited areas they could go into. The reality is, Pressly also had the same issue, and so too would the majority, if not 100% of the rest of the crew.

This was the single most advanced warship in the Systems Alliance Fleet. It was NOT a jointly owned ship. It was a jointly developed ship. Huge difference. Very huge difference. And there was no indication that any other Navy among the Citadel races operated any differently.

What Shepard was doing was supposed to be unique...special...ground breaking. Only Mercs/Pirates were doing this, as a matter of necessity.



Line #2. Her line on the Citadel...she can't tell the other races from animals. As the Dev noted, this was not meant to portray her as a racist. It was highlighting that Ashley had little to no experience with the other races...and as he noted, most of the other races were in fact, evolved from species that are animals on Earth. Amphibian, Lizard, Avian species, Jellyfish, etc... And they were trying to highlight that fact, through Ashley's statement. Ashley is also supposed to be a blunt speaking soldier who doesn't worry about being politically correct, as soldiers tend to not be.

In short, 3 things were being conveyed to us the gamer.

1. Ashley is not experienced with being around the other races. She lived a sheltered existence on human planets, where she had little to no contact with other races.

2. That many of the Citadel races are in fact, evolved from species types that are in fact, animals on Earth.

3. That Ashley is a blunt speaking, no-nonsense, grunt. She's a typical soldier that has not patience for platitudes, political correctness, etc...



Now...was she a racist? No. We see this time after time in all three games.

In ME1, when you meet an actual human racist group, she literally expresses disdain for them because of their views.

We don't really see her in ME2, but she is very kind to whoever you have with you at Horizon, even if they are Aliens, such as Tali, or Garrus. She is in fact, happy to see they are doing well. But, she has a huge problem with Shepard working with Cerberus...you know...the humans first, racist organization? Yeah...she doesn't like them...but why, if she's a space racist? That should be just fine with her. In fact, she would have liked them overall, even if she disagreed with some of the things they did. She didn't like Cerberus, at all.

In ME3, the best example is if you let Tali die in ME2, then recruit Ashley in ME3. Upon learning that Tali died, she is very angry at Shepard, and blames him for her death. She expresses that Tali was like a sister to her. A sister to her? When could that have been? At this point, she had no contact with her in ME3, because Tali dies in the suicide mission in ME2. In ME2, at most, she only gets to talk briefly on Horizon, with Tali. So she is in fact, talking about her time with Tali on the SR1, in ME1. So this completely destroys any notion that Ashley was a space racist.


So what was Ashley's issue? Trust. And she came by that honestly, because people constantly proved themselves to be trustworthy. In an elevator conversation with Garrus, she literally says this very thing...that she doesn't trust anyone...she only trusts herself...and that's in ME1.

Ashley, to this day, remains the single most falsely maligned character in the Mass Effect franchise. You don't have to like her character, but she's not a space racist.

[N7_Shadow]

Originally posted by MadMinstrel:

Originally posted by tahunua:

I had the option for a renegade conversation to re-inforce Ashley's racist beliefs or a Paragon option to convince her that Alien Lives Matter.

Nope, that was always there. Remember it from my first playthrough on the Xbox 360 on launch.

You aren't reinforcing her racist beliefs. You are reinforcing her beliefs that Aliens can't be trusted. Guess what...they weren't trustworthy...and they were racist in many instances.

Witness the racism all Citadel races have towards Quarians.

Witness the Salarians tampering with the DNA of Krogans.

Witness the Turians planting a world killing bomb on the Krogan's home world.

Witness the Salarians asking you to double cross Wrex and the Krogans.

Witness the Asari keeping the information secret, that the Protheans had entrusted to them, in order to GIVE to all other races, in order to prepare for the Reapers.


Ashley was NOT a racist...she just didn't trust, and her lack of trust was well founded. If anything, she was smarter than some, in this regard. If anything, Shepard was too trusting, but it all works out for him. But every single one of those races on his ship, could have acted as spies for their governments, and in the real world, they would have been 100% approached to do so, and pressured to do so, if they initially refused. That's just how the real world works.

[GlorFindel1983]

Ashley was a racist in ME1, same as Navigator Charles Pressly, but as ME1 progresses and we can read his journal/datapad in ME2 he not only begins to trust aliens and appreciates them, but he would also die for any one of them (of course, he means alien crew members).

Same, transition is present in Ashley if she survives ME1.

That only proves, people can change, even for better and even in adult/mature/older years!

[M E T A L]

Originally posted by glorfindel1983:

Ashley was a racist in ME1, same as Navigator Charles Pressly, but as ME1 progresses and we can read his journal/datapad in ME2 he not only begins to trust aliens and appreciates them, but he would also die for any one of them (of course, he means alien crew members).

Same, transition is present in Ashley if she survives ME1.

That only proves, people can change, even for better and even in adult/mature/older years!

:cozybethesda:

Ashley's attitude towards racism changes in ME1 if you make Paragon choices, she basically snaps at Charles Saracino calling him a racist.

[sick duck]

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

Originally posted by sick duck:

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

God Bless America!

[sick duck]

Originally posted by Big Dicc Marty:

Originally posted by sick duck:

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

:murica::murica: God Bless America! :murica::murica:

To be clear when I say "some people" what I mean by that is that Ashley was about as sheltered and shut-in the average person who would hang on out on the pre-Musk twitter spaces.

[amathy]

Originally posted by sick duck:

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

You understand that being prejudicial against other races regardless of the reason is by definition racist, right? That's what the word means. Some people just don't go to school much.

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

Originally posted by sick duck:

Originally posted by Big Dicc Marty:

God Bless America!

To be clear when I say "some people" what I mean by that is that Ashley was about as sheltered and shut-in the average person who would hang on out on the pre-Musk twitter spaces.

[tahunua]

Originally posted by amathy oniichan uwu:

Originally posted by sick duck:

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

You understand that being prejudicial against other races regardless of the reason is by definition racist, right? That's what the word means. Some people just don't go to school much.

while I agree with you 100%, this does bring up a certain devil's advocate topic for me. just because Ashley may not trust the counsel, a body comprised entirely of aliens, one could argue that she's distrustful of their political beliefs and despises them based on the arbitrary boundaries of nationality, not necessarily race.
great example among most americans at the current moment:
Russia=bad, Ukraine=good. both are nations in the same region of earth, and share many ethnic, cultural, and predominately genetic traits, the politics governs our trust vs distrust.

another example
People's Republic of China=bad Taiwan=good. both are east asian, political entities (I say political entities instead of nations because both claim to be the legitimate government of China). both are ethnically similar, have the same cultural roots, and occupy the same general region. just because you don't approve of the chinese government doesn't mean you're racist, otherwise you would also not approve of Taiwan.

now lets turn back to ashley, she claims not to trust aliens or their motivations, but what if she was simply refering to the arbitrary lines that we as humans always draw to identify in-groups and outgroups. the fact that the Turian Heirachy is comprised almost entirely of Turians is as coincidental as the fact that the peoples republic of China is comprised almost entire of Chinese.

just playing devil's advocate here. I think Ashley does swing a little closer to this argument, but the fact that she repeatedly identifies her prejudice against aliens rather than their governments is what tends to rub people the wrong way and muddies her message.

[sick duck]

Originally posted by amathy oniichan uwu:

Originally posted by sick duck:

There was no racism from Ashley in ME1, just the usual accusations from the usual American liberals who have too little empathy to understand why people can feel vulnerable. Some people just don't go outside much.

You understand that being prejudicial against other races regardless of the reason is by definition racist, right? That's what the word means. Some people just don't go to school much.

Well at least you aren't one of those forever online losers I mentioned, because if you were you would know that people don't use the word as the dictionary describes it: basically racist = bad person, and what I am doing is pointing out that racism happens for reasons and calling it bad is dumb and too simple. Fact of the matter is that trust doesn't come easy to everyone, and it only gets a lot harder to trust if Ahsley is so sheltered and knows that the Turians shooting at humans was the first experience with aliens from space.