Mass Effect shouldn't be turned into a show

[Toasty]

Turning a successful video game into a film or a TV series is tricky.

My personal view is while there are some very good examples:
Warcraft
Hitman
Lara Croft (original duo)
Witcher - season 1
Prince of Persia
Doom

Unfortunately there are many failed attempts:
Hitman Agent 47
Lara Croft (latest one)
Witcher - season 2
Uncharted
Resident Evil film series

Screen adaptations of video games more often than not lack two crucial elements:
a) the original engaging story, carefully building up the world and characters
b) actors who truly internalize the game's characters, and perform accordingly

A notable exception is the first season of The Witcher.

Going back and forth between timelines made it very confusing but The saving grace of the whole season was having the actor in the titular role who actually played the game and was very familiar with the nuance even before reading the script.
In fact, Henry Cavil initiated the correspondence with the producers himself, seeking the role.

But that didn't last for long. In Season 2 the show went downhill fast, mainly because the showrunner imposed her take instead of staying true to the characters and world, resulting in many viewers abandoning the show, myself included.

I don't believe that between the current state of unprofessionalism from showrunners and actors accepting any roles to make money following the sleepy cinema days of C-19, we'll get a good Mass Effect adaptation.

What's worse is they'll probably dilute the themes of the triology to suit younger audiences and pander to a wider audience.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

Tento komentář čeká na kontrolu naším automatizovaným systémem. Dočasně je tedy skryt, dokud si neověříme, že nezahrnuje žádný nevhodný obsah (např. odkazy na webové stránky, které chtějí ukrást přihlašovací údaje uživatelů).

[Toasty]

Tento komentář čeká na kontrolu naším automatizovaným systémem. Dočasně je tedy skryt, dokud si neověříme, že nezahrnuje žádný nevhodný obsah (např. odkazy na webové stránky, které chtějí ukrást přihlašovací údaje uživatelů).

[N7_Shadow]

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Wheel of Time? Witcher? HALO? Marvel? D.C.? What haven't they wrecked?

We will support the new Mass Effect series if it's not woke, and is good, and does not overtly violate the lore. The problem is this...Hollywood's efforts over the last decade, gives us no reason to expect that this will happen.

I agree overall about Star Wars sequels, it was a disgrace. However, as a lefty, allow me to interject about political stuff and it's relation to overall quality of art.
Companies are using "woke" elements in two ways:
1) as marketing tools;
2) as a shield against criticizm.
Unfortunately, every time someone singles out the "woke" stuff as a reason why bad product is bad, the distraction pays off - they've succesfully shifted the discussion into a different dimention, they don't have to argue about the product on the basis of its meaningful merits and instead they just have to drag you deep down into the swamp of petty bickering over superficial elements.
There is one rule, that, as I've found out, works really well. It's never about "wokeness" of something - it's always, always about execution.
Mass Effect, Star Treck, Star Wars, Witcher, etc. - this are all woke projects, if by woke you mean progressive. They all have left-leaning ideas integrated deep into their cores, so deep that trying to separate them would be impossible. But no one seems to care about it that much, because they are very well made.
When people see some, for example, gay character making a cringey, poorly written remark - they tend to single out the "wokeness" as the reason of it being bad, when in reality the reason is always poor writing.
Poor writing will stay poor - regardless whether or not it tries to promote any particular political ideology. If it's poorly written - it will be bad under all conditions.

I've seen this theory that it's not the woke, it's the bad writing that's the problem. Yes and No. Let me explain in a way that I think is simple.

If you remember, Daily Wire made that movie about the school shooting. In the movie, 3 boys and a girl take over the school, and kill a bunch of students and staff. They are thwarted by a girl. But not just any girl. She's the daughter of a man who has taught her how to take care of herself. To illustrate that, they show the father mentoring her on a deer hunt.

Now, imagine 2 Vegans watching this movie. One, Vegan 1, is so far in left field, Babe Ruth couldn't hit it over his head. The other, Vegan 2, is more middle of the road. So as soon as this scene is over, Vegan 1 storms out of the room, vowing to never watch the movie ever again. Vegan 2 says, "Meh, it's just one scene. I could have done without it, but let's see where this goes."

Now, if that's the last of the hunting scenes (it was) then Vegan 2 may enjoy the movie, and actually decide it's really good.

But let's take a look again. What if it isn't just a movie, and instead it's a series. Every episode, they show a hunting scene, and some episodes really focus on hunting culture. Overall, it's still only a fraction of the entirety of the series, but even Vegan 2 may decide, "OK, they are just overdoing it. What is this show, a commercial for Bass Pro Shops? Time to find something else to watch."

In short, it wasn't bad writing that drove him away. It was too much focus on something he either disagrees with, or has no interest in. That is where we are at today. And those of us who are tired of it, are really tired of it. We are now over sensitive to it, so even toning it down just a little, isn't enough. It needs to be toned down, a lot. And make no mistake, woke does not hold the high moral ground either. Not that the more ardent proponents of it, would understand that fact. There is often a huge difference between progress and woke. Not everything progressive is actually progress.

Science fiction should focus on science fiction. It's what people want. Just like many stopped watching Black Sails, when it went woke late in season 2. People were like, "Can't I just have pirates, and ships, and canons, and swords, and treasure?" You inject divisive agendas at your own peril. The customers don't need you. The Company needs the customers. You have to provide what they want to watch, or play, or read...or they walk away. You would think they would understand that.

But as you said,

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

Companies are using "woke" elements in two ways:
1) as marketing tools;
2) as a shield against criticizm.

#1 isn't actually working out too well. It did work at first, but many projects that should succeed, are failing, or at a minimum, not doing anywhere near as well as it should. I often wonder if there are just too many woke people in the company, and like your post, they insist on believing that there are other reasons these projects fail, or under perform. If so, they are in denial.

#2, again...denial. Often the criticism comes from people who aren't even customers. But I get it...the media is aligned in that direction also, so they serve as a megaphone for the small but loud group of critics. The problem is mobilizing the majority. These people are often the ones who proudly claim, "I am a member of the silent majority." Silence isn't a virtue. But they do speak up if you get their attention, and thus we get the woke trying to cancel certain people, but can't, because the silent majority stopped being silent. Such as with Gina Carano. I live in Florida. I have friends at Disney. I assure you that the critics of Carano were drastically drowned out by her defenders. And Disney is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Disney+ hasn't recovered at all. And now you had the 2 recent scandals that caused many of that silent majority, that had not given up on Disney, to do so. Many canceling yearly passes to the parks, and canceling their Disney+ subscriptions, and also vowing to no longer buy merchandise.

But this is an ideological war. I think it's going to take investors suing, to force Disney to alter course.

My point remains...it's not just bad writing. Bad writing often accompanies woke. But even good writing can't overcome too much focus on woke.

[N7_Shadow]

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

zulu původně napsal:

In the current state of show business, things indicate game adaptations do not enjoy that luxury. They have been progressively worse in the very recent past.

Eeeeeeh, I don't know about that one - Sonic is a hit, Warcraft (that I haven't watched) was released not so long ago. If anything, todays adaptations are more or less decent, in recent past most video game adaptations were Uwe Boll's flicks, which were made to exploit a loophole in the German law, apperently.
And current state of show business isn't that different from any other point in its history - the main goal was always profit.

Once again, the answer isn't a simple one. Warcraft performed very well, for a movie based on a video game. But the story doesn't end there.

Warcraft grossed $47.4 million in the United States, and $391.7 million in other countries, for a worldwide total of $439 million. Given its $160 million production budget and additional $110 million spent on promotions, the film needed to earn $450–500 million in order to break-even. In July 2016, The Hollywood Reporter said the film lost the studio around $15 million, although noted several executives put the losses in the $30–40 million range. Worldwide, it is the highest-grossing film of all time based on a video game (breaking Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time's record). It is the first video game film to cross $400 million in ticket sales globally,[48] and is also one of the few Hollywood releases to earn $100 million in China without making $100 million in the United States.

[Toasty]

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

Eeeeeeh, I don't know about that one - Sonic is a hit, Warcraft (that I haven't watched) was released not so long ago. If anything, todays adaptations are more or less decent, in recent past most video game adaptations were Uwe Boll's flicks, which were made to exploit a loophole in the German law, apperently.
And current state of show business isn't that different from any other point in its history - the main goal was always profit.

Once again, the answer isn't a simple one. Warcraft performed very well, for a movie based on a video game. But the story doesn't end there.

Warcraft grossed $47.4 million in the United States, and $391.7 million in other countries, for a worldwide total of $439 million. Given its $160 million production budget and additional $110 million spent on promotions, the film needed to earn $450–500 million in order to break-even. In July 2016, The Hollywood Reporter said the film lost the studio around $15 million, although noted several executives put the losses in the $30–40 million range. Worldwide, it is the highest-grossing film of all time based on a video game (breaking Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time's record). It is the first video game film to cross $400 million in ticket sales globally,[48] and is also one of the few Hollywood releases to earn $100 million in China without making $100 million in the United States.

I'd also like to point out that I listed Warcraft as an example of a very good adaptation in my original topic^ In the recent past, Warcraft is still an exception rather than what we've seen in other adaptations. I highly recommend watching the movie if you enjoyed any of the games. It's really well-made, exceptionally so, and quite faithful to the lore.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

First of all, I aprreciate the response.
Let's go point by point.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

2 Vegan analogy
In short, it wasn't bad writing that drove him away. It was too much focus on something he either disagrees with, or has no interest in.

In this analogy, Vegan 1 disliked the movie due to it containing a scene of killing a deer. In other words, it contained a scene, incompatible with his political and moral framework.
It is possible, however it is a subjective reaction and not a really good indication of whether or not something is good or bad on an objective level. And in your example, deer hunting is an important part of backstory and not just a random act of animal cruelty for the sake of it.
Most people usually aren't that ideologically entrenched and often can give a lot of lee-way to the things they disagree with.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

There is often a huge difference between progress and woke. Not everything progressive is actually progress.

Can't argue with that.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Science fiction should focus on science fiction. It's what people want.

Can't argue with that either.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

#1 isn't actually working out too well. It did work at first, but many projects that should succeed, are failing, or at a minimum, not doing anywhere near as well as it should.

I would want some examples of that.
I've heard a lot about how Captain Marvel, for example, would bomb - yet it failed to materialize. It failed to materialize for some other "woke" movies as well.
And some other examples, that are usually brought up, had some other reasons other than simply being woke. So yeah.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

#2, again...denial. Often the criticism comes from people who aren't even customers.

I think we are talking about different types of criticisms.
What I mean is that "diversity", for example, is often used as a deflection against people with legitimate grievances over the work of fiction, that it is used to paint critics in a bad way.
I've seen it with Witcher, for example, when a lot of people, who were angry and upset at it, were called racist due to the fact that show has black people in it. Now, were there racists who hated the show solely because of their racism? Absolutely.
But racism is far from being the only reason for the negative reaction in most cases, the show is fundamentaly broken on practically every level - yet the discourse around it was centered on really inconsequential stuff, which've lead to some people defending or attacking the show based on purely political reasons. The smokescreen worked really well and idiots polluted the discourse.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Such as with Gina Carano. I live in Florida. I have friends at Disney. I assure you that the critics of Carano were drastically drowned out by her defenders.
And Disney is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Disney+ hasn't recovered at all.
And now you had the 2 recent scandals that caused many of that silent majority, that had not given up on Disney, to do so.
Many canceling yearly passes to the parks, and canceling their Disney+ subscriptions, and also vowing to no longer buy merchandise.

I've heard about Gina Carano, but from the looks of it, Disney+ is doing really well. I guess it takes us back to the two vegans analogy, where most people just don't really care about controversies like this.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

But this is an ideological war. I think it's going to take investors suing, to force Disney to alter course.

My point remains...it's not just bad writing. Bad writing often accompanies woke. But even good writing can't overcome too much focus on woke.

I have to admit, I'm really curious to see your examples of good writing, that was turned bad explicitly due to the woke elements.
And again, Disney is doing what they are doing only because of money. They don't care about politics, otherwise they wouldn't be editing out their gay characters in places like China, for example.
And going back to Vegan analogy, "Vegan 1" types of people aren't that numerous, while "Vegan 2" types are plentiful. Most people outside of the internet hardly focus on culture war stuff and just want high quality entertainment.

[Malmonoi]

Sometimes, I think it's funny that this Steam application has video games in it but people choose to spent a great deal of time typing out long responses like they're writing an essay.

One's 10 year old self must be so disappointed.

[N7_Shadow]

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

In this analogy, Vegan 1 disliked the movie due to it containing a scene of killing a deer. In other words, it contained a scene, incompatible with his political and moral framework.
It is possible, however it is a subjective reaction and not a really good indication of whether or not something is good or bad on an objective level. And in your example, deer hunting is an important part of backstory and not just a random act of animal cruelty for the sake of it.
Most people usually aren't that ideologically entrenched and often can give a lot of lee-way to the things they disagree with.

Right, the point I was getting at is that we don't freak out if there is a strong female leader. We are cool with that. But when that is overplayed, and we don't have strong male leaders of equal quality, then we become like Vegan 2. We are like, OK, this is too much. I'm done. The old saying is that the answer is somewhere in the middle. We don't want male chauvinism but we also don't want female chauvinism. Keep things balanced.

As for lgbtq, we aren't going to run from the room screaming if a show has some of that. But when it becomes too much of a focus, or every show has that box checked off, then we become like Vegan 2. Then we say, Ok, a little was OK, but enough is enough. I'm out.

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

#1 isn't actually working out too well. It did work at first, but many projects that should succeed, are failing, or at a minimum, not doing anywhere near as well as it should.

I would want some examples of that.
I've heard a lot about how Captain Marvel, for example, would bomb - yet it failed to materialize. It failed to materialize for some other "woke" movies as well.
And some other examples, that are usually brought up, had some other reasons other than simply being woke. So yeah.

Thanks for adding this. It allows me to discuss this in better detail. First, are you aware that Mass Effect Andromeda sold very well? It was a commercial success by any standard. however, EA announced several months later that they were pulling the plug. We would not get DLC or Sequels. But why? It sold well, so why wouldn't we get those? Because initial sales aren't the end of the story. People bought it expecting it to be good, and were disappointed. And it was more than the bugs and animations, because even when those were mostly fixed, the fans didn't change their mind, like they did when Witcher 3 had the same problems, but was later fixed. So EA noticed that despite the great sales numbers, there was every indication that it wasn't well loved. Pouring more money into it would be risky at best.

Well, the same goes for Captain Marvel. You but tickets to go see it, but then don't like it. It currently holds an audience rating of 44% on Rotten Tomatoes, and this is after they removed bots. So there is more to the story than the initial sales figures. Also, it was sandwiched between two huge Avengers movies, and the audience was told that Captain Marvel was a must see, for the Avengers fans...you needed to see it for important details leading up to the final movie.

Now get this...you would think that a movie character whose movie was such a success would figure prominently in the movie, and yet her screen time was measured in seconds. And the backlash against her was so strong, Marvel felt the need to show the audience that they wouldn't cave to the pressure, by doing the cringy girl power solidarity scene at the end...We got her back...LOL

You would think that with the movie being such a financial success, they would want to capitalize on that, amiright? No. No Captain Marvel 2. No...the sequel is called, "The Marvels." And they are introducing new Marvels. Why? Likely so they can have a likable Marvel for future projects. I'm guessing they will gauge fan reactions to the other Marvels, to decide which one will be used in Avenger type movies in the future...and which one will lead in future Captain Marvel type movies. Maybe the man will be pushed to the front. Captain Marvel in the comics was both a man, and woman. So maybe this will be Disney throwing a bone to the men who are getting frustrated by the M-She-U.

And the idea here is that the movie (Captain Marvel 2) itself wasn't completely horrible. Most of the hate was due to the Woke hate expressed by Brie. But there were also some cringy woke stuff in the movie.

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

#2, again...denial. Often the criticism comes from people who aren't even customers.

I think we are talking about different types of criticisms.
What I mean is that "diversity", for example, is often used as a deflection against people with legitimate grievances over the work of fiction, that it is used to paint critics in a bad way.
I've seen it with Witcher, for example, when a lot of people, who were angry and upset at it, were called racist due to the fact that show has black people in it. Now, were there racists who hated the show solely because of their racism? Absolutely.
But racism is far from being the only reason for the negative reaction in most cases, the show is fundamentaly broken on practically every level - yet the discourse around it was centered on really inconsequential stuff, which've lead to some people defending or attacking the show based on purely political reasons. The smokescreen worked really well and idiots polluted the discourse.

Agree with all of that, but I will add this. Just because we have a problem with them race swapping, doesn't make us racists. We want the franchise to remain what we love. We develop a care for the characters. Imagine things working in reverse, and somebody deciding that it's just wrong that the Asari are all female, so they change that, and then Change Liara to Lamtra, a male Asari. Think people would have a problem with that? Yes we would. What if they decided that Captain Anderson should be a white man. Think people would have a problem with that? Yes, we would. What if somebody decided that Emily Wong should be a man. Think anyone would have a problem with that? Yes, we would. What if they made Dr. Chakwas a White man? Think anyone would have a problem with that? Yes, we would.

See, we love the franchise that is. This is of course why Disney bought the franchises, such as Star Wars. It comes with an existing passionate, and loyal fanbase. But then, they don't respect that fanbase. They set about altering the franchise in ways that matter, and then act shocked when people hate it. They ask why fans hate the new, and why fans are gatekeeping, etc.. It's because the love the franchise that was...which is why it was purchased.

It's literally like buying a steak restaurant franchise that is the most well loved, and then changing the menu, removing steak and adding chicken, or seafood. Then acting shocked when the customers get angry, and stop coming.

What Kathleen Kennedy did to Star Wars is a crime. And it's going to be felt forever. Many fans want the sequel trilogy removed from canon, but they refuse to do that. It alters the Saga in significant ways. Here's just one tiny thing, but it's easy to point out. Ben Solo doesn't exist. Han Solo's children were Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin. So who is Ben Solo? It's almost like KK did this on purpose. Because now they can't name Luke's child the right name either...because his son was named Ben.

And think about how this makes no sense. Obiwan meant nothing to Han or Leiah. He meant something to Luke. Yet now Han's son is Ben, and Luke's son is getting a new name. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even gotten into all the woke nonsense. The Obiwan project that is soon to be out, is a wreck. Obiwan fails again. Seems all he does is fail. But never fear. A Black woman saves the day.

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Such as with Gina Carano. I live in Florida. I have friends at Disney. I assure you that the critics of Carano were drastically drowned out by her defenders.
And Disney is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Disney+ hasn't recovered at all.
And now you had the 2 recent scandals that caused many of that silent majority, that had not given up on Disney, to do so.
Many canceling yearly passes to the parks, and canceling their Disney+ subscriptions, and also vowing to no longer buy merchandise.

I've heard about Gina Carano, but from the looks of it, Disney+ is doing really well. I guess it takes us back to the two vegans analogy, where most people just don't really care about controversies like this.

They lost subscribers, but then it was announced that Gina was being brought back. So many went back.

Dork_Stalker_310 původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

But this is an ideological war. I think it's going to take investors suing, to force Disney to alter course.

My point remains...it's not just bad writing. Bad writing often accompanies woke. But even good writing can't overcome too much focus on woke.

I have to admit, I'm really curious to see your examples of good writing, that was turned bad explicitly due to the woke elements.
And again, Disney is doing what they are doing only because of money. They don't care about politics, otherwise they wouldn't be editing out their gay characters in places like China, for example.
And going back to Vegan analogy, "Vegan 1" types of people aren't that numerous, while "Vegan 2" types are plentiful. Most people outside of the internet hardly focus on culture war stuff and just want high quality entertainment.

With China, they have no choice. China is literally banning it. Here people are more like Vegan 2, and they are getting to that point where they are getting tired of it. One thing here or there isn't going to chase them away, but it's not just one thing here or there. It's constant and frequent, and reaching critical mass.

The younger people don't understand because it's not being done to them as much. But if this trend continues, in the future if these same kinds of things are being done to franchises they have loved for decades, only then will they understand why so many people are angry with what's being done.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

The old saying is that the answer is somewhere in the middle. We don't want male chauvinism but we also don't want female chauvinism. Keep things balanced.

From what I see, most blockbusters still have predominantly male leads. And if we talk about quality male/female charaters, we go back to decent writing argument.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Thanks for adding this. It allows me to discuss this in better detail. First, are you aware that Mass Effect Andromeda sold very well? It was a commercial success by any standard. however, EA announced several months later that they were pulling the plug. We would not get DLC or Sequels. But why? It sold well, so why wouldn't we get those?

To be fair, we don't have the exact sale numbers - and judging by the fact that it was dropped in less than half a year, I would assume that sales numbers were either not satisfactory enough by EA standarts or not satisfactory enough in general.
And now I'm glad that you've brought up this example, because it actually supports my point. Andromeda failed, because it was a not-so-well written game, with lots of issues. You can patch facial animations, you can't patch out bad dialogue. It was bad writing and boring characters that killed Andromeda, in contrast with Witcher 3, which has great writing and great charaters - which was one of the many reasons for its success.
Although to be completely fair, there were plenty of people, who loved Andromeda and wanted DLCs for it, it's just that this number was deemed insufficient, which I guess mostly happened due to the reasons, discussed earlier.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Well, the same goes for Captain Marvel. You but tickets to go see it, but then don't like it. It currently holds an audience rating of 44% on Rotten Tomatoes, and this is after they removed bots. So there is more to the story than the initial sales figures. Also, it was sandwiched between two huge Avengers movies, and the audience was told that Captain Marvel was a must see, for the Avengers fans...you needed to see it for important details leading up to the final movie.

Correct, it succeded because it was a Marvel movie between two other big Marvel movies.
Counter-point about Rotten Tomatoes score, though - there was a movie, that a lot of anti-Cap croud paraded around, that came around the same timeframe. Alita Battle Angel has a fantastic user score of 93%, even decent critical score of 63%. Yet all of this failed to materialize into an insane box office success and sequel is nowhere to be seen, while Cap. M. was featured in Avengers, however limited her role was and will get a sequel movie. That leads me to believe that such raiting should be taken with a grain of salt.
And again, by your own words, the movie wasn't even that woke. The hate mostly came from reaction to some cringey thing Brie said at some event, which has no bearing on the movie itself.
But even if we talk solely about movie, was her character disliked solely because of actresses personality or due to the character being written in a bland, unlikable and boring way? Because if the reason is solely first one, we are entering Vegan 1 zone - and if the second reason is the main one, then we go back to my point. Writing triumps, one way or another.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Agree with all of that, but I will add this. Just because we have a problem with them race swapping, doesn't make us racists. We want the franchise to remain what we love. ... It's because the love the franchise that was...which is why it was purchased.

I have nothing to add and I agree with this completely.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

What Kathleen Kennedy did to Star Wars is a crime. And it's going to be felt forever.

People tend to give her too much ♥♥♥♥, when Abrams/Johnson due are the main reasons it all fall apart. Sure, she shares the blame due to her hiring this two hacks, but as far as I'm aware, she wasn't the one writing this movies.

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

Here people are more like Vegan 2, and they are getting to that point where they are getting tired of it. One thing here or there isn't going to chase them away, but it's not just one thing here or there. It's constant and frequent, and reaching critical mass.

The younger people don't understand because it's not being done to them as much. But if this trend continues, in the future if these same kinds of things are being done to franchises they have loved for decades, only then will they understand why so many people are angry with what's being done.

I would like to see, what project do you think failed solely for the reason of being woke?
Because if we take previously mentioned Star Wars, the reason for why sequels suck is writing. If "woke" stuff was replaced with something else, the movies would still be really bad due to horrendeos inability of Abrams and Johnson to write a coheseve narrative on this scale.

[Booba]

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

I've seen this theory that it's not the woke, it's the bad writing that's the problem.

The wokeness is just a symptom of the bad writing.

If you take a look at Thor: Ragnarok on a purely superficial level you'll see it's a pretty woke movie, with strong females, weak and fallible men and minorities galore. It also has some quirky humor and of course, action, action action. Last but not least, if you look a little deeper, it has a solid plot, and characters with plausible motivations for all of the things they do (where it counts).

You wouldn't accuse Thor: Ragnarok of being woke, right? So I ask you: which of the above elements are missing in the movies you despise?

All the woke agenda is (in entertainment), is a market trend based on the most readily identifiable elements of film, television, literature and gaming. Stupid, bean-counting executives with pie charts, bar graphs and computer models, see a correlation between elements (collectively we can refer to them as social justice) and profit, so they invest in those elements (we've talked about this before: the boxes that get ticked off). What they don't realize is that a correlation is not causality, and they're left scratching their heads at their bewilderingly mixed results. Why are these elements successful only some of the time? Why are others failures? The decision-makers responsible for lost money need to look for someone to blame. "It's the white male patriarchy." "It's COVID-19." "It's digital streaming," or in Netflix's case: "it's password sharing."

These companies do not give two ♥♥♥♥♥ about social justice. The corporate machine can only care about growth and profit. Now that social justice fatigue has set in, we'll see new trends rising soon.

Just take a look at Netflix's recent memo. Dave Chappelle makes them money. They're standing by him: not the woke agenda or the "liberal snowflakes" they employ.

[N7_Shadow]

Scuba Steve původně napsal:

N7_Shadow původně napsal:

I've seen this theory that it's not the woke, it's the bad writing that's the problem.

The wokeness is just a symptom of the bad writing.

If you take a look at Thor: Ragnarok on a purely superficial level you'll see it's a pretty woke movie, with strong females, weak and fallible men and minorities galore. It also has some quirky humor and of course, action, action action. Last but not least, if you look a little deeper, it has a solid plot, and characters with plausible motivations for all of the things they do (where it counts).

You wouldn't accuse Thor: Ragnarok of being woke, right? So I ask you: which of the above elements are missing in the movies you despise?

All the woke agenda is (in entertainment), is a market trend based on the most readily identifiable elements of film, television, literature and gaming. Stupid, bean-counting executives with pie charts, bar graphs and computer models, see a correlation between elements (collectively we can refer to them as social justice) and profit, so they invest in those elements (we've talked about this before: the boxes that get ticked off). What they don't realize is that a correlation is not causality, and they're left scratching their heads at their bewilderingly mixed results. Why are these elements successful only some of the time? Why are others failures? The decision-makers responsible for lost money need to look for someone to blame. "It's the white male patriarchy." "It's COVID-19." "It's digital streaming," or in Netflix's case: "it's password sharing."

These companies do not give two ♥♥♥♥♥ about social justice. The corporate machine can only care about growth and profit. Now that social justice fatigue has set in, we'll see new trends rising soon.

Just take a look at Netflix's recent memo. Dave Chappelle makes them money. They're standing by him: not the woke agenda or the "liberal snowflakes" they employ.

The woke agenda drives most of the bad writing. What you are pointing out is a movie (Marvel Movies) that have a passionate, loyal fanbase. Glitz it up with enough action, and humor and people don't see the woke as much. It's like lens flare...it can hide bad graphics modeling.

Here's an example. Star Trek Pickard. The writing itself is actually pretty good. The second season wasn't bad. Just having some strong females isn't woke. We've had that forever. Princess Leia was as strong as they come in the first Star wars, what is now Episode IV. She had a sharp tongue, and took action when the men were freaking out, and not getting it done. Nobody complains about that.

I saw a recent video talking about this...that what the woke see as woke, isn't woke...and so they think our problem with woke, isn't what our problem is with.

Strong females, people of color, lgbtq, weak men, etc...isn't what makes something woke. It's how it's done. And that's what I was trying to point out with Vegan 1 and Vegan 2. I tried to make it a quick discussion but I think delving into what actually is and is not woke, would be a huge discussion. It's like a woman asking you what makes a woman beautiful to you. We can toss out some things, but the reality is, there is not quick and easy answer to that other than "We know beauty when we see it." My point being, I can't say big b00bs or butt, because I can then immediately point to women who have neither, who are very beautiful. It tends to be more how everything is put together.

I was trying to note that with Vegan 2. And what I was trying to say is that is the majority of us who have a problem with the woke. But the woke think we are all Vegan 1. They think just having a strong female lead will cause us to have a meltdown, when in fact we have enjoyed strong female characters in movies and games, forever. It's the way they are doing things...it's more in the minutia.

You say the writing is bad. I say the writing is bad because of the woke ideology that pushed them to add things into that writing to take it over the top, to where even Vegan 2 can no longer handle it.

Thus, something like Star Trek Pickard. While it may not win awards, it would still be quite enjoyable, good writing, good special effects, good actors, etc...but they had to cram woke ideology into it to the point that it was the story. It was fine. I was enjoying it. And then 3rd show of the 2nd season, and then the 4th show...it flipped from a good, fun series to watch, to being a wokefest that I couldn't tolerate anymore, and I wasn't alone, because I saw the same reactions, and suddenly many people complaining about it in the newest reviews on Amazon Prime.

We could sit through the alternate future of mankind being the new Nazis...because we knew it was caused by Q, and Pickard would fix it. But when we see blatant false portrayal of ICE, and then get over the top woke lectures on we all suck as a species...sorry, it's not fun anymore. We don't watch to get lectured on political ideology and how we are wrong. We watch to have fun. Woke isn't fun.

[N7_Shadow]

I could go on another long post that describes how The Expanse was all kinds of Woke, but it worked because they skirted the line, but danced back and forth across it, but on the track they were going, some of us were going to start checking out. In the beginning they had a mix of strong male and female characters. But by the end, they were definitely shifting to more strong females All the strong males were being killed off, and not replaced. It makes me wonder if that's why they shifted Amos Burton from being a strong but dumb character, to being very smart, and very strong.

In the beginning, he was portrayed as needing a strong leader. In one early episode, he flat out admits to Naomi that she is that person for him. He's strong, and a great mechanic, and a great fighter, but needs a strong, smart person to lead him. But then he shifts and becomes the leader. Even tricking Jim Holden, using his own words and beliefs against him, to cut off any argument about bringing Clarissa Mao onboard. He also came to serve as a balance to Bobbi the female super soldier.

There were other examples. Alex dies and is replaced as the pilot by Clarissa. But that was because the actor playing Alex got caught in a #MeToo. I don't think they had plans to replace him.

Commander Klaes Ashford served as a balance to Camina Drummer. There was a really cool chemistry between the two. But then he's killed.

If you look at it, all of the horrible people were men. Only Clarissa was evil, but then it turns out she is also a victim, and actually a great person.

For in most cases, the best are women. Bobbi, Clarissa the most dangerous to fight. The top leaders are women. Chrisjen Avasarala's husband was so effeminate, he came across as gay, not just a woke feminist man.

Naomi Nagata wins for being the most resilient and determined. Her life was also ruined by a man who took her kid away from her. Something experience by way way more men in real life, and known to account for a large part of the reason so many more men self-delete.

The point I am getting at here is that there was plenty of woke in that series, and as me and my friends discussed, they were removing a lot of the balance, but not replacing it. Like instead of an awesome male pilot, the get Clarissa. That was the implication...she will be the new pilot.



BUT...BUT...why did it work? Well, for one thing, a lot of us loved that as far as the tech goes, it was the first show that explored what moving off our planet and taking over the entire solar system, might actually look like. And the space battles were amazing. The technical side of the series was top notch. Like removing the air from the inside of the ship during a fight, which of course prevents explosive decompression.

The woke was there from the beginning, but it wasn't as much in your face, and it was balanced by it's opposite. But that balance was disappearing. Woke, to work, needs to be mostly invisible. Not really noticed, or if noticed, not crossing a threshold that makes it so in your face.

But that's the problem with woke writing. Why woke ruins the writing...when it becomes the focus, or too much of the focus. It's like the whole "day of visibility" thing that goes on. It's not enough for the woke to have an invite to the party. They aren't happy unless the party is about them...their ideology.

We are starved for good scifi. So much of it is bad, and being destroyed by woke, such as Star Trek Picard. The expanse was mostly good scifi, what had not quite reached the threshold of too much woke.

The Expanse mostly worked because there was enough there for those who are not woke. But by the end, it appeared the trend was towards more and more woke. Thankfully, the series ended before that could happen.

[N7_Shadow]

I just found this. He explains a lot. One thing he said stands out. When the first Star Wars was made, there was one check box and it was called FUN. He notes that we go to movies to be entertained, not lectured to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMdaD1JpCFE

[CrumbleCat]

I dunno why everyone keeps bringing up The Witcher. It's not a video game adaptation, and wasn't based on the games at all. It's pointless to mention it.

[Booba]

MasterCrumble původně napsal:

I dunno why everyone keeps bringing up The Witcher. It's not a video game adaptation, and wasn't based on the games at all. It's pointless to mention it.

This is rather pedantic don’t you think? As an adaptation, it’s relevant to the discussion regardless of whether or not its source material is a video game, or the literature the games are based on.