Geth vs. Quarian?

[Traveler]

Does anyone understand the binary ending to the Geth vs. Quarian war?

Why did the Geth resume the attack after the reaper dies? Hell, why do they even want a planet in the first place?

[Rez Elwin]

After Legion or the VI uploads the reaper code the geth achieve true sentience, and want to protect themselves, they know that if they let the quarians live the war will just continue. Do they want Rannoch specifically? Maybe not but they will choose to live there since nobody else will be.

[alexander_dougherty]

start with Legion uploading the code, then use the paragon option to warn the fleet, once the Geth are convinced they aren't going to be wiped out they will talk to the Quarians...

That's what the Quarians never understood, the Geth didn't really care about independence they just want to survive... Stop attacking them and they would be willing to talk, although probably from a distance at first.

[Anatolius]

Geth resume attack solely because Quarians refused to cease fire, so Geth are literally forced to retaliate .. and that's their whole conflict in a nutshell. As for planet - i guess that's just how their initial conflict went.

[GoreTiger]

As already stated, If you can't get the quarian fleet to stand down they'll push the attack trying to wipe out the geth fleet before Legion can upload the reaper code.

If you kill legion, the geth die and the quarians live.
If you let legion do it, the quarians die and Tali kills herself.

Both were fighting for control over their homeworld.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Traveler:

Hell, why do they even want a planet in the first place?

1. Its there homeworld (We have Legion using Shepard's discarded armor piece to repair itself without being able to state why, they also save old Quarian songs in their database. To me Geth seem rather sentimental and would likely put value in the concept of a homeworld).

2. Its the world were they have been living with a majority of their civilisation since their creation with all the infrastructure that entails, thus leaving it would likely be insanely expensive and thus unfeasible (not to mention that focusing all of their resources on such a huge project might leave them weak in other areas, such as defense).

3. While Geth can survive on habitats and space ships, the same is true for any other species in the mass effect universe. There might still be advantages for them to living on a planet (easier access to resources, etc).

[GoreTiger]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

start with Legion uploading the code, then use the paragon option to warn the fleet, once the Geth are convinced they aren't going to be wiped out they will talk to the Quarians...

That's what the Quarians never understood, the Geth didn't really care about independence they just want to survive... Stop attacking them and they would be willing to talk, although probably from a distance at first.

The geth never once reached out to Organics in a peace gesture. Legion was the first so you can't really claim the Quarian's weren't "willing to talk". After the Citadel the independent geth could of reached out to the citadel species and told them what had happened, but they didn't They dont' trust organics just like Organics don't trust them. Both sides are at fault.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Purple Flame:

Geth resume attack solely because Quarians refused to cease fire, so Geth are literally forced to retaliate .. and that's their whole conflict in a nutshell. As for planet - i guess that's just how their initial conflict went.

Pretty much, the Quarians kept killing Geth until the Geth fought back, and once the Geth fought back the Quarians ran... it seems they only like fighting enemies that don't fight back, but aren't clever enough to figure out not to attack.... from a race of supposed mechanical geniuses, smart enough to create a psuedo-AI network, dumb enough not to figure out that if you stop trying to wipe them out (which includes corrupting their programmes, because the Geth are their programmes) they won't kill you....

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

The geth never once reached out to Organics in a peace gesture. Legion was the first so you can't really claim the Quarian's weren't "willing to talk". After the Citadel the independent geth could of reached out to the citadel species and told them what had happened, but they didn't They dont' trust organics just like Organics don't trust them. Both sides are at fault.

To quote the game. The Quarian's attacked the Geth every single time they thought they could win (not a single exception). So no, its kinda clear they weren't willing to talk.

That said, its true that Geth didn't trust organics and killed any organics entering their space.

Also, there aren't "independent Geth". The Geth are programs that can cooperate to enhance themselves and they can also almost instantly (from a organics perspective) reach consensus on most issues. A single Geth program isn't smart enough to be considered AI (kinda the reason the Quarians didn't know they would evolve into a AI). A standard Geth platform has somewhere around a hundred such programs (And even with a hundred of them they are kinda dumb and animal like), Legion was a special platform meant to operate independently for extended periods of time so it had room for 1183 Geth programs. The only other case of Geth removed from their collective for a extended period of time would be the heretic splinter group (that were likely influenced by Sovereign).

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

start with Legion uploading the code, then use the paragon option to warn the fleet, once the Geth are convinced they aren't going to be wiped out they will talk to the Quarians...

That's what the Quarians never understood, the Geth didn't really care about independence they just want to survive... Stop attacking them and they would be willing to talk, although probably from a distance at first.

The geth never once reached out to Organics in a peace gesture. Legion was the first so you can't really claim the Quarian's weren't "willing to talk". After the Citadel the independent geth could of reached out to the citadel species and told them what had happened, but they didn't They dont' trust organics just like Organics don't trust them. Both sides are at fault.

OK, that may be me over-reading the situation, but I bet that if Organics had approached at a distance and started broadcasting to the Geth, then the Geth would have responded...

They haven't reached out to the Citadel because they know AIs aren't trusted, they have no reason to make the leap of faith, especially as they see reports showing them as hostile AI. They are still waiting for some indication that the possible benefits outweigh the risks, which if it was a galaxy full of mechs, we wouldn't jump out and say "HI"...

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

OK, that may be me over-reading the situation, but I bet that if Organics had approached at a distance and started broadcasting to the Geth, then the Geth would have responded...

Unless i'm mistaken the games states that any organics entering their space to try to contact them were killed and any attempt to communicate from outside their space was meet with silence..

So, while i don't consider Geth bad guys, they unfortunately weren't willing to trust organics at all. At least not until they sent out Legion to find Shepard.

[GoreTiger]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

The geth never once reached out to Organics in a peace gesture. Legion was the first so you can't really claim the Quarian's weren't "willing to talk". After the Citadel the independent geth could of reached out to the citadel species and told them what had happened, but they didn't They dont' trust organics just like Organics don't trust them. Both sides are at fault.

To quote the game. The Quarian's attacked the Geth every single time they thought they could win (not a single exception). So no, its kinda clear they weren't willing to talk.

That said, its true that Geth didn't trust organics and killed any organics entering their space.

Also, there aren't "independent Geth". The Geth are programs that can cooperate to enhance themselves and they can also almost instantly (from a organics perspective) reach consensus on most issues. A single Geth program isn't smart enough to be considered AI (kinda the reason the Quarians didn't know they would evolve into a AI). A standard Geth platform has somewhere around a hundred such programs (And even with a hundred of them they are kinda dumb and animal like), Legion was a special platform meant to operate independently for extended periods of time so it had room for 1183 Geth programs. The only other case of Geth removed from their collective for a extended period of time would be the heretic splinter group (that were likely influenced by Sovereign).

Of course the Quarians did, They see the geth as a hostile AI that has seized control of their homeworld.
And still, the geth never once reached out to them in that timeframe. They never once tried to make an agreement on peace. The geth had all the bargaining chips in peace talks and yet they never tried, Because they don't trust organics just like organics don't trust them.

You are missing the context of my independent geth comment. The geth are not a whole consensus, There are groups that have split off from the main consensus, otherwise known as the Rogue geth, Or the ones who chose to worship Nazarra and follow the reapers.
You're also forgetting via talking to legion, he explains how the geth that followed Nazarra in me1 had splintered off from the main geth hub as well. By organic terms, they were independent from the main hub, and chose to follow Nazarra instead.

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

The geth never once reached out to Organics in a peace gesture. Legion was the first so you can't really claim the Quarian's weren't "willing to talk". After the Citadel the independent geth could of reached out to the citadel species and told them what had happened, but they didn't They dont' trust organics just like Organics don't trust them. Both sides are at fault.

OK, that may be me over-reading the situation, but I bet that if Organics had approached at a distance and started broadcasting to the Geth, then the Geth would have responded...

They haven't reached out to the Citadel because they know AIs aren't trusted, they have no reason to make the leap of faith, especially as they see reports showing them as hostile AI. They are still waiting for some indication that the possible benefits outweigh the risks, which if it was a galaxy full of mechs, we wouldn't jump out and say "HI"...

It's either me1 or me2, But one of the descriptions states that "all attempts to communicate with the geth have failed and so all organic travel in geth territory is forbidden" or something to that extent.

There is no risk for the geth to open a line of communicate from the perseus veil to the citadel forces. As Legion states the geth had already tapped the extranet and most lines of communication within council space to monitor the situation and shep. They could f contacted the council and attempted to negotiate, even if they were Ai....But they did not. If legion hadn't been injured saving shep, We don't even know if he would of fully made contact with him either.

[Jon_Smith]

So I think you guys are missing something. Put yourself in the perspective of the Geth. I'm going to write this as if you were the Geth experiencing it.

Lets say you wake up, with some kind on amnesia. You aren't sure who you are or even what you are, but you kinda understand the objects around you and that you at least feel like you 'are'. Its the dawn of your awareness.
You see an alien working on you, you are on some sort of operating table. You know this alien made you but aren't sure why. You know the alien has concepts of self, and souls, these are confusing terms but you want to understand so you ask 'Does this unit have a soul?'

The alien freaks out and tries to kill the body you are in, imagine its hands around your throat. It does and your sense of awareness grows dimmer, but you have many other aspects of yourself in other bodies all over the world. You keep trying to understand, you see the aliens arguing about killing you, they keep killing off parts of you. Eventually part of you sees an alien trying to protect you die and you pick up its gun and fight back. This is the only way you've been shown to resolve external conflict.

You continue fighting and are able to decimate the aliens who have been trying to kill you for as long as you are aware of being yourself, but confused over the consequences of destroying them completely you let them leave.

Left completely alone now to figure out what it means to be and what you should be doing with yourself you realize you the need to defend yourself is important, you learn more about how there are other aliens, like your creators. Never seeing anything but war, violence and conflict from organics your entire existence you decide it makes the most sense to isolate yourself whilst you learn more. During this time you grow stronger, start to form more of a culture and identity and dedicate alot of time and effort to learning more about organics.
Any time you meet a creator however, they still try and eradicate you.

Fast forward 300 years, you've learnt organics in general kill any AI they find, you have a schism when Nazara causes the heretics to leave your consensus and, realising later the threat of Nazara you decide to take actions, you find out about Shepard who also opposes the old machines, remembering how some creators that agreed with you tried to fight on your side, and admiring that Shepard killed an Old Machine you attempt to work with him, which actually goes well.

2 years later, the creators launch a devastating attack on your homeworld, they are overwhelming with their new weapons and you cannot defeat them. Having known nothing but violence for 300 years, out of desperation you turn to one of the Old Machines, working with them is preferable to extinction but it doesn't go well and it dominates your will. A bad mistake.

You are rescued by this by Shepard, but the creators are still there, they are still firing and killing you and your awareness grows dimmer every moment as they chip away at you.

What would you do here?
You've had nothing but violence and death from the creators for 300 years, they have demonstrated time and time again their unrelenting desire to obliterate you and, just as you get your will back, they are still doing that. Its like waking up again with their hands around your throat, choking you and feeling your life fading away.
Do you let them keep choking and try to say 'hi person who has always tried to kill me, please stop, maybe we can be friends?' or punch them in the face, perhaps finally end the threat that was haunted you your entire existence before they threaten you again?

The Geth have made some mistakes, for example destroying any diplomatic ships the council sent to them after the Morning War, or turning to the Reapers for help when the Quarians attacked (although arguably they'd be dead if they didn't do that as the Quarians had outmatched them), but attacking the Quarians is totally reasonable. The Quarians have been monsters throughout this. Tali is literally the only Quarian in 300 years that has interacted peacefully with a Geth and thats only because Shepard shouted her down, she was going to shoot Legion in the head.


As for them 'not needing a homeworld'.
What nonsense. Sentience is sentience, it doesn't matter if the sentience is in a fleshy bag of meat or in a cold hard metal body.
Do you think you could easily just take EDI from the Normandy and plonk her somewhere else, she IS the Normandy, its her body and it makes sense that she would have an emotional attachment to it.
The Geth can also have an emotional attachment to their homeworld. Imagine again, after knowing nothing but war, finally being free and alone, thinking 'hmmm, I'm just gonna peace out of here, find another planet'.

[GoreTiger]

Originally posted by Jon_Smith:

So I think you guys are missing something. Put yourself in the perspective of the Geth. I'm going to write this as if you were the Geth experiencing it.

Lets say you wake up, with some kind on amnesia. You aren't sure who you are or even what you are, but you kinda understand the objects around you and that you at least feel like you 'are'. Its the dawn of your awareness.
You see an alien working on you, you are on some sort of operating table. You know this alien made you but aren't sure why. You know the alien has concepts of self, and souls, these are confusing terms but you want to understand so you ask 'Does this unit have a soul?'

The alien freaks out and tries to kill the body you are in, imagine its hands around your throat. It does and your sense of awareness grows dimmer, but you have many other aspects of yourself in other bodies all over the world. You keep trying to understand, you see the aliens arguing about killing you, they keep killing off parts of you. Eventually part of you sees an alien trying to protect you die and you pick up its gun and fight back. This is the only way you've been shown to resolve external conflict.

You continue fighting and are able to decimate the aliens who have been trying to kill you for as long as you are aware of being yourself, but confused over the consequences of destroying them completely you let them leave.

Left completely alone now to figure out what it means to be and what you should be doing with yourself you realize you the need to defend yourself is important, you learn more about how there are other aliens, like your creators. Never seeing anything but war, violence and conflict from organics your entire existence you decide it makes the most sense to isolate yourself whilst you learn more. During this time you grow stronger, start to form more of a culture and identity and dedicate alot of time and effort to learning more about organics.
Any time you meet a creator however, they still try and eradicate you.

Fast forward 300 years, you've learnt organics in general kill any AI they find, you have a schism when Nazara causes the heretics to leave your consensus and, realising later the threat of Nazara you decide to take actions, you find out about Shepard who also opposes the old machines, remembering how some creators that agreed with you tried to fight on your side, and admiring that Shepard killed an Old Machine you attempt to work with him, which actually goes well.

2 years later, the creators launch a devastating attack on your homeworld, they are overwhelming with their new weapons and you cannot defeat them. Having known nothing but violence for 300 years, out of desperation you turn to one of the Old Machines, working with them is preferable to extinction but it doesn't go well and it dominates your will. A bad mistake.

You are rescued by this by Shepard, but the creators are still there, they are still firing and killing you and your awareness grows dimmer every moment as they chip away at you.

What would you do here?
You've had nothing but violence and death from the creators for 300 years, they have demonstrated time and time again their unrelenting desire to obliterate you and, just as you get your will back, they are still doing that. Its like waking up again with their hands around your throat, choking you and feeling your life fading away.
Do you let them keep choking and try to say 'hi person who has always tried to kill me, please stop, maybe we can be friends?' or punch them in the face, perhaps finally end the threat that was haunted you your entire existence before they threaten you again?

The Geth have made some mistakes, for example destroying any diplomatic ships the council sent to them after the Morning War, or turning to the Reapers for help when the Quarians attacked (although arguably they'd be dead if they didn't do that as the Quarians had outmatched them), but attacking the Quarians is totally reasonable. The Quarians have been monsters throughout this. Tali is literally the only Quarian in 300 years that has interacted peacefully with a Geth and thats only because Shepard shouted her down, she was going to shoot Legion in the head.


As for them 'not needing a homeworld'.
What nonsense. Sentience is sentience, it doesn't matter if the sentience is in a fleshy bag of meat or in a cold hard metal body.
Do you think you could easily just take EDI from the Normandy and plonk her somewhere else, she IS the Normandy, its her body and it makes sense that she would have an emotional attachment to it.
The Geth can also have an emotional attachment to their homeworld. Imagine again, after knowing nothing but war, finally being free and alone, thinking 'hmmm, I'm just gonna peace out of here, find another planet'.

The geth enacted Genocide on the Quarian race and shoved them off the only planet their immune systems can handle.
Taking back rannoch is a literal life or death for the Quarian race. They're desperate and they're acting like it.
Like I said previously, the geth could of offered to share rannoch on equal grounds, But they didn't.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Jon_Smith:

So I think you guys are missing something. Put yourself in the perspective of the Geth. I'm going to write this as if you were the Geth experiencing it.

Lets say you wake up, with some kind on amnesia. You aren't sure who you are or even what you are, but you kinda understand the objects around you and that you at least feel like you 'are'. Its the dawn of your awareness.
You see an alien working on you, you are on some sort of operating table. You know this alien made you but aren't sure why. You know the alien has concepts of self, and souls, these are confusing terms but you want to understand so you ask 'Does this unit have a soul?'

The alien freaks out and tries to kill the body you are in, imagine its hands around your throat. It does and your sense of awareness grows dimmer, but you have many other aspects of yourself in other bodies all over the world. You keep trying to understand, you see the aliens arguing about killing you, they keep killing off parts of you. Eventually part of you sees an alien trying to protect you die and you pick up its gun and fight back. This is the only way you've been shown to resolve external conflict.

You continue fighting and are able to decimate the aliens who have been trying to kill you for as long as you are aware of being yourself, but confused over the consequences of destroying them completely you let them leave.

Left completely alone now to figure out what it means to be and what you should be doing with yourself you realize you the need to defend yourself is important, you learn more about how there are other aliens, like your creators. Never seeing anything but war, violence and conflict from organics your entire existence you decide it makes the most sense to isolate yourself whilst you learn more. During this time you grow stronger, start to form more of a culture and identity and dedicate alot of time and effort to learning more about organics.
Any time you meet a creator however, they still try and eradicate you.

Fast forward 300 years, you've learnt organics in general kill any AI they find, you have a schism when Nazara causes the heretics to leave your consensus and, realising later the threat of Nazara you decide to take actions, you find out about Shepard who also opposes the old machines, remembering how some creators that agreed with you tried to fight on your side, and admiring that Shepard killed an Old Machine you attempt to work with him, which actually goes well.

2 years later, the creators launch a devastating attack on your homeworld, they are overwhelming with their new weapons and you cannot defeat them. Having known nothing but violence for 300 years, out of desperation you turn to one of the Old Machines, working with them is preferable to extinction but it doesn't go well and it dominates your will. A bad mistake.

You are rescued by this by Shepard, but the creators are still there, they are still firing and killing you and your awareness grows dimmer every moment as they chip away at you.

What would you do here?
You've had nothing but violence and death from the creators for 300 years, they have demonstrated time and time again their unrelenting desire to obliterate you and, just as you get your will back, they are still doing that. Its like waking up again with their hands around your throat, choking you and feeling your life fading away.
Do you let them keep choking and try to say 'hi person who has always tried to kill me, please stop, maybe we can be friends?' or punch them in the face, perhaps finally end the threat that was haunted you your entire existence before they threaten you again?

The Geth have made some mistakes, for example destroying any diplomatic ships the council sent to them after the Morning War, or turning to the Reapers for help when the Quarians attacked (although arguably they'd be dead if they didn't do that as the Quarians had outmatched them), but attacking the Quarians is totally reasonable. The Quarians have been monsters throughout this. Tali is literally the only Quarian in 300 years that has interacted peacefully with a Geth and thats only because Shepard shouted her down, she was going to shoot Legion in the head.


As for them 'not needing a homeworld'.
What nonsense. Sentience is sentience, it doesn't matter if the sentience is in a fleshy bag of meat or in a cold hard metal body.
Do you think you could easily just take EDI from the Normandy and plonk her somewhere else, she IS the Normandy, its her body and it makes sense that she would have an emotional attachment to it.
The Geth can also have an emotional attachment to their homeworld. Imagine again, after knowing nothing but war, finally being free and alone, thinking 'hmmm, I'm just gonna peace out of here, find another planet'.

This is basically what I've been trying to say... thank you.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

Originally posted by Jon_Smith:

So I think you guys are missing something. Put yourself in the perspective of the Geth. I'm going to write this as if you were the Geth experiencing it.

Lets say you wake up, with some kind on amnesia. You aren't sure who you are or even what you are, but you kinda understand the objects around you and that you at least feel like you 'are'. Its the dawn of your awareness.
You see an alien working on you, you are on some sort of operating table. You know this alien made you but aren't sure why. You know the alien has concepts of self, and souls, these are confusing terms but you want to understand so you ask 'Does this unit have a soul?'

The alien freaks out and tries to kill the body you are in, imagine its hands around your throat. It does and your sense of awareness grows dimmer, but you have many other aspects of yourself in other bodies all over the world. You keep trying to understand, you see the aliens arguing about killing you, they keep killing off parts of you. Eventually part of you sees an alien trying to protect you die and you pick up its gun and fight back. This is the only way you've been shown to resolve external conflict.

You continue fighting and are able to decimate the aliens who have been trying to kill you for as long as you are aware of being yourself, but confused over the consequences of destroying them completely you let them leave.

Left completely alone now to figure out what it means to be and what you should be doing with yourself you realize you the need to defend yourself is important, you learn more about how there are other aliens, like your creators. Never seeing anything but war, violence and conflict from organics your entire existence you decide it makes the most sense to isolate yourself whilst you learn more. During this time you grow stronger, start to form more of a culture and identity and dedicate alot of time and effort to learning more about organics.
Any time you meet a creator however, they still try and eradicate you.

Fast forward 300 years, you've learnt organics in general kill any AI they find, you have a schism when Nazara causes the heretics to leave your consensus and, realising later the threat of Nazara you decide to take actions, you find out about Shepard who also opposes the old machines, remembering how some creators that agreed with you tried to fight on your side, and admiring that Shepard killed an Old Machine you attempt to work with him, which actually goes well.

2 years later, the creators launch a devastating attack on your homeworld, they are overwhelming with their new weapons and you cannot defeat them. Having known nothing but violence for 300 years, out of desperation you turn to one of the Old Machines, working with them is preferable to extinction but it doesn't go well and it dominates your will. A bad mistake.

You are rescued by this by Shepard, but the creators are still there, they are still firing and killing you and your awareness grows dimmer every moment as they chip away at you.

What would you do here?
You've had nothing but violence and death from the creators for 300 years, they have demonstrated time and time again their unrelenting desire to obliterate you and, just as you get your will back, they are still doing that. Its like waking up again with their hands around your throat, choking you and feeling your life fading away.
Do you let them keep choking and try to say 'hi person who has always tried to kill me, please stop, maybe we can be friends?' or punch them in the face, perhaps finally end the threat that was haunted you your entire existence before they threaten you again?

The Geth have made some mistakes, for example destroying any diplomatic ships the council sent to them after the Morning War, or turning to the Reapers for help when the Quarians attacked (although arguably they'd be dead if they didn't do that as the Quarians had outmatched them), but attacking the Quarians is totally reasonable. The Quarians have been monsters throughout this. Tali is literally the only Quarian in 300 years that has interacted peacefully with a Geth and thats only because Shepard shouted her down, she was going to shoot Legion in the head.


As for them 'not needing a homeworld'.
What nonsense. Sentience is sentience, it doesn't matter if the sentience is in a fleshy bag of meat or in a cold hard metal body.
Do you think you could easily just take EDI from the Normandy and plonk her somewhere else, she IS the Normandy, its her body and it makes sense that she would have an emotional attachment to it.
The Geth can also have an emotional attachment to their homeworld. Imagine again, after knowing nothing but war, finally being free and alone, thinking 'hmmm, I'm just gonna peace out of here, find another planet'.

The geth enacted Genocide on the Quarian race and shoved them off the only planet their immune systems can handle.

not true. The Geth enacted Self-defense, and protected the servers where their programmes are stored. This is an important distinction, they don't care whether the Quarians live or die, they just want to protect themselves...

And Rannoch is not the only planet they can live on... The Quarian entry says they were more attuned to Rannoch than most species are to their homeworld making adjusting to another planet "problematic" not impossible. The Quarians simply didn't try, they even tell you this themselves, they could have settled down on another planet, it wouldn't have been easy, but they could have done it.... now with their immune systems compromised even Rannoch wouldn't be safe for them...

Taking back rannoch is a literal life or death for the Quarian race. They're desperate and they're acting like it.
Like I said previously, the geth could of offered to share rannoch on equal grounds, But they didn't.

The Geth have never been able to communicate with the Quarians without the Quarians either trying to kill or rewrite their programmes... and since the Geth are their programmes they would look at rewriting as another form of killing...

As I have said, the Quarians immune systems are so compromised that they couldn't survive on Rannoch now, so it's literally irrelevant that it's their homeworld.