I need help understanding Miranda Lawson

[Yhvh10]

Okay let me preface this by saying that I’m not looking to start a fight nor am I bashing on Miranda, so please Miranda fanboys, just chill and read my post before writing your angry hate comment.

With that out of the way - I’ll get to it. I need help understanding Miranda. Because I honestly feel like I’m the odd one out, I seem to be the only one that is totally bewildered by Miranda and the fact that you don’t get the option to just at least walk away during her loyalty mission. In fact I feel like I’m missing something, a piece of dialogue, a data pad with info of it? Something to fill in the blanks for me. Anything really.

Ive played Mass Effect 2 several times(mind you I’m only talking about ME2) and Ive never truly been a fan of her. There was always something that just bugged me, so with the release of the Legendary Edition I decided to do yet another run through the Lovecraftian space robot filled masterpiece of mass Effect. However I have a friend that loves Miranda Lawson, so I decided this run to give her a try, or at least figure out why I’ve never clicked with her.

Miranda comes off as the pretty basic ice queen ♥♥♥♥♥. But also badass initially. I don’t really mind her...until her loyalty mission. That’s what gets me.

Even before the mission starts I’m having question marks. She hates her father for...”Reasons.” Honestly that’s what it comes down too. “He wanted to build a dynasty instead of raising a daughter.” This makes no sense. I know multiple people who raise children with the intention of them carrying on the family legacy by taking over the family business. There could be negative connotations with it, however the statement is so vague that it’s hard to really understand it on a personal level. And this honestly kinda strikes me as self-centered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ considering the trauma other squadmates go through. E.G. Jack, Garrus, Samara. “Dad wanted me to take on the family business! How dare he!”

But okay...I’ll move on. She explains that she ‘helped’ her sister by helping her get out of that terrible environment and that her dad is gunning for his daughter...like what any dad would do...but remember. He doesn’t love them. :/ So fine, you land and encounter the eclipse. Who are fine with you! They just want you to leave. They don’t start shooting at you, in fact when they see Miranda in the car they stop and in the most polite way a group of mercs can be...they ask you to leave. Then it comes out that Miranda kidnapped her sister...which was a baby. She literally kidnapped a baby to get back at her father for what I assume to be not enough hugs. Like wtf. At this point I’m basically waiting for the reason why I should continue helping her. I’m waiting for the bomb to drop, she was raped by her father, her father killed her mother in front of her, her father was a deranged psychopath who blew up a planet...honestly anything at this point. But no. It just shoehorns you into mowing through an army of people literally trying to help save a child from a deranged lunatic and her goons.

And then if that wasn’t bad enough, when you finally get to the top with Niket and the Asari merc(I don’t remember her name) he basically tells you the same thing that I’m thinking. “You kidnapped a baby!” And then of course Miranda kills him. (There’s a paragon interrupt to keep Miranda from killing him but I was playing renegade). So he drops dead and you have a boss battle with the Asari.

Miranda comes off as the worst type of ex-wife. The type that lies to keep the man from seeing his children just to spite him. And yes I know that Mass Effect 3 goes into it a little bit more and explains some, but I’m thinking more of why the ♥♥♥♥ would Shepard help her with the information he/she has at that time. And why is there no ability to tell her ♥♥♥♥ off, maybe at the cost of her loyalty like there is with Zaeed and other companions who demand you to do morally questionable actions. I mean...you are basically shoehorned into re-kidnapping a child because the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ sister is mad at daddy. And honestly, it makes no sense to me. What exactly am I missing? Is there a data pad somewhere? A piece of dialogue I just didn’t get. Something to possibly explain why I am obligated to back Miranda in her vindictive behavior when I don’t have too with Zaeed and Garrus?(This statement is wrong, Zaeed and Garrus are justified, Miranda from what I can tell is not).

Anyways sorry for the long post. Just curious if I missed something that would explain the absolute utter lack of choice in this extremely questionable situation and would explain why Miranda has such a total hate-on for her father. And I mean in Mass Effect 2. If a situation requires an entire other game to explain why you engaged in morally questionable behaviors, that’s not an answer, that’s just bad writing.

[Yhvh10]

Publicado originalmente por ADhalism:

well first of all the premise of this is all wrong. You're working for cerberus, you can't trust anyone, you goal is to get your team in the best of states and hope that they work out.

Second of all Miranda tells you that she was created in a lab, which in itself is ethically questionable, and that her father is controlling if not outright abusive. Now you don't know if it's true but it certainly is good enough reason to help Oriana out.

So why would you choose to believe half-truths of some Nikket instead of half-truths of your crewmate, other than your own pre-conceived biases?

Good and solid answer. Thank you.

[benwaggoner]

I quite like that Miranda's loyalty mission involves her realizing in the midst of everything that her clear moral vision was more cloudy that she realized, and that other people would have very different perspectives on it. Miranda is very good at many things, but her poor empathy for others is a key deficit of her. Of course, her father would have intentionally raised her to not care about the feelings of "regular people" so this attribute fits into her narrative nicely.

This sort of mirror's Jack's loyalty mission, where she also has to confront how her moral certainty wasn't based on complete facts, and ignored the suffering of the other kids. Of course, that information was intentionally kept from her, and thus more comfortably justifiable.

Miranda and Jack have a whole lot of similarities despite the surface contrasts.

[ProfSleepy96]

I love Miranda, and relate to her alot even if her story doesn't fully declare certain things i suspect. To fully get what i'm gonna toss out here, i'd recommend OP that you read "bullet and a promise" or something like that on AO3, it's very short but, very well done and it only touches on me2.

That said, i believe it's not hard to read between the lines of her backstory and see abuse. That story i mentioned details it cooler than i could, but it is something i always thought even before reading it. But here's my take on her story that makes her a tragic story to me as well, but because i'm bad at making coherent thoughts you may have to read between the lines of my post, like i did between the lines of Miranda's conversations:

Basically, Henry Lawson wanted to make a dynasty right? Why not make a son, who could do that faster? And in LotSB, you can see that Miranda has fertility problems. Given that she mentioned she "wasn't the first one he made, only the first he kept", it speaks to me that she succeeded genetically in some area others didn't but if he wanted a legacy, she'd have to be fertile right? And then suddenly when Miranda is around the age of 16 (which is slightly after a woman is a.. woman), Oriana is "born" ? Hmm. Maybe it's my own experience/trauma talking now but why would Henry Lawson engineer her to be that... 'perfect' looking? Or rather, what he views as perfect? Probably for perverted reasons. In my opinion, though not confirmed by the games themselves, Henry was emotionally and mentally abusive (Miranda stating she couldn't have friends, bred to be perfect and act perfect, and what not), but also likely sexually abusive. I believe you can see grooming techniques in the line she says "My father gave me everything i ever wanted but there was always a hook, an angle to his long term plans". But as i said, she is infertile, which Henry would've found out. Which is likely why Oriana exists in the first place because something is wrong with Miranda, she is't perfect. Thus, Miranda not wanting what was done to her to be done to her sister, she took her away.

TL;DR : i believe in ME2 alone there is enough evidence to suggest Henry Lawson was grooming Miranda, that he was also emotionally and mentally abusive/manipulative and to sum her up as a character who didn't want to run a family business is unfair. I think her extreme care of Oriana's well-being and safety also speaks wonders for how to evil Henry Lawson is, which is further confirmed in ME3 Horizon.

[Enter]

Publicado originalmente por sloshalot:

Publicado originalmente por Aenno:

I don't accept the right to own sentient beings.
If he want her daughter, who was baby when she was stolen and 19 now, he can ask her. Otherwise he's kidnapping human being because he paid for her.

I don’t either. But a parent has a right to their children. A right basically Miranda took away because she was being vindictive.

Creation of saipient life is outlawd by the citadel council and the humans system alliance, he has absolutly no right to Miranda, Orianna or any of their unknown sisters.

[n#n#m#]

Publicado originalmente por ProfSleepy96:

To fully get what i'm gonna toss out here, i'd recommend OP that you read "bullet and a promise" or something like that on AO3

I see you are a person of culture as well

[Yhvh10]

Publicado originalmente por Enter:

Publicado originalmente por sloshalot:

I don’t either. But a parent has a right to their children. A right basically Miranda took away because she was being vindictive.

Creation of saipient life is outlawd by the citadel council and the humans system alliance, he has absolutly no right to Miranda, Orianna or any of their unknown sisters.

I don't recognize the authority of the Citadel Council or the Human Council...

...these are the same councils that spent 3 years convincing themselves that the reapers weren't real and made absolutely no preparations despite evidence to the contrary right? And laughed in Shepard's face. Thanks, but I'm good not using them are the arbitrators of morality.

[Jon_Smith]

I think its a stretch to accuse her Dad of sexual abuse or incest.
I think its as simple as he saw her as property, a tool to do what he wanted and needed and knew a smart beautiful woman has many advantages a man hasn't.
He was cold and unloving, controlling and manipulative.

There is a big difference between someone loving you and wanting to pass on a family legacy and someone who is selfishly using you for their own purpose, who doesn't care if you're happy, just if you fit a role.

Miranda knew her sister would grow up the same as her and gave her a chance to experience real love, happiness and a family. All the things Miranda couldn't have. She's a great sister in my opinion.

[Dr.Abscondus]

Dad Lawson created Miranda by taking his own X chromosome and duplicating it to create a female version of himself. She had no mother. He had done this before several times, but those daughters were defective (of course because every bad recessive gene on his X chromosomes would be activated) and were 'discarded'. Dear old Dad was disappointed in Miranda because she was too strong willed to be dominated so he made another one, the younger sister Oriana. Miranda escaped from him and took the Oriana with her, adopted her out to a normal family so she could have a normal life. Dad hired Eclipse mercs to find her. We already know that Eclipse mercs are the scum of the galaxy from the Nassana Dantius mission on Ilium in ME2. We're told that to join Eclipse you have to murder an innocent person. We also know that Niket betrayed Miranda for money and not on moral grounds. So, what's not to understand about Miranda? She grew up without love and was treated like a lab rat so she gets a bit testy at times.

[ProfSleepy96]

Publicado originalmente por Jon_Smith:

I think its a stretch to accuse her Dad of sexual abuse or incest.
I think its as simple as he saw her as property, a tool to do what he wanted and needed and knew a smart beautiful woman has many advantages a man hasn't.
He was cold and unloving, controlling and manipulative.

There is a big difference between someone loving you and wanting to pass on a family legacy and someone who is selfishly using you for their own purpose, who doesn't care if you're happy, just if you fit a role.

Miranda knew her sister would grow up the same as her and gave her a chance to experience real love, happiness and a family. All the things Miranda couldn't have. She's a great sister in my opinion.

I disagree that it's a *stretch* to see him as a groomer, especially given that it happens nowadays with people who aren't "perfect", but because it's never explicitly said in the game, i am willing to say it is just an assumption and not fact. Because, well, it isn't fact.

Everything else, i fully agree with you and even if there was no physical abuse, i especially agree Miranda was in the right to remove Oriana from that life. She even provided for her the best she could (Ori points to it in her email) so she's just as smart and well off, if not better, than Miranda. If it was for only selfish intentions to hurt Henry like OP mentioned, i think she would've kept Ori with her, or wouldn't have had to be persuaded to even get involved with her on a personal level that she wasn't on before.

[caesar_andy]

Publicado originalmente por sloshalot:

Even before the mission starts I’m having question marks. She hates her father for...”Reasons.” Honestly that’s what it comes down too. “He wanted to build a dynasty instead of raising a daughter.” This makes no sense. I know multiple people who raise children with the intention of them carrying on the family legacy by taking over the family business. There could be negative connotations with it, however the statement is so vague that it’s hard to really understand it on a personal level. And this honestly kinda strikes me as self-centered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ considering the trauma other squadmates go through. E.G. Jack, Garrus, Samara. “Dad wanted me to take on the family business! How dare he!”

The point is the word "Dynasty". Nobody uses this word for a standard family-lineage. A Dynasty is a noble family of aristocrats or rulers. So you can understand mirandas Story as "The father did not want them as children, he wanted them as assets to gain prestige and increase his social status". Mirandas father may have mixed up the term "Family life" with "Building a house of feudal nobles". Probably with the ultimate goal to gain some kind of sovereignty. About what? Who knows, but as far as we can tell, it might have been badm if he had been successfull.
Sure, you can name mirandas motives as "Egoistic", but "Producing" a human beeing to keep it as a valuable asset (... and doing it twice!) is definitively not nice.

But okay...I’ll move on. She explains that she ‘helped’ her sister by helping her get out of that terrible environment and that her dad is gunning for his daughter...like what any dad would do...but remember. He doesn’t love them.

And that is the difference. Miranda kidnapped her sister, because she loved her. Her father wanted her back, because she is a valueable asset to him and his plans. Valueable, like an expensive car, not a human beeing.

So fine, you land and encounter the eclipse. Who are fine with you! They just want you to leave. They don’t start shooting at you, in fact when they see Miranda in the car they stop and in the most polite way a group of mercs can be...they ask you to leave. Then it comes out that Miranda kidnapped her sister...which was a baby. She literally kidnapped a baby to get back at her father for what I assume to be not enough hugs.

She kidnapped her, to get her a family that actually IS a family. Something miranda never had. Miranda had always feelt like a trophy in her fathers glass cabinet.

Like wtf. At this point I’m basically waiting for the reason why I should continue helping her. I’m waiting for the bomb to drop, she was raped by her father, her father killed her mother in front of her, her father was a deranged psychopath who blew up a planet...honestly anything at this point. But no. It just shoehorns you into mowing through an army of people literally trying to help save a child from a deranged lunatic and her goons.

What her father did was indeed some form of rape. Not physical, but psychological abuse. That is in no way less harmfull!

And then if that wasn’t bad enough, when you finally get to the top with Niket and the Asari merc(I don’t remember her name) he basically tells you the same thing that I’m thinking. “You kidnapped a baby!” And then of course Miranda kills him.

Niket had grown up with a Family, but has always been poor. For him, being wealthy sounds like the paradise on earth and he can not understand, why taking a child out of a wealthy family, may be something good.
For miranda it is quite the opposite. She has grown up with money but without a family. She really wanted a family and would easily pay with all that money for it.
Both of them just can't understand each other because they don't share similar experiences.

[Jon_Smith]

Just one more thing to add to this.

Its popped into the news cycle again regarding Britney Spears and her conservatorship, with her talking about how they control her money, tell her what friends she can have, who she can date and marry, forced her to get an IUD and won't let her see a Doctor to take it out as she wants to have another kid and they don't want her to, how she has to work like a slave yet gets denied her passport, ID, basically her freedom and has no control over her life and money and how miserable that makes her.

I think its hard to sympathise with her Dad on this, assume he's trying to do the best for her.
Britney was a tool her Father used to get famous, he used her talent and sexuality to sell her as a brand and was hugely, hugely successful and wanted to keep all the fruits of her labour to himself.

I would be surprised if you would describe Britney as a 'spoilt rich kid' or 'rebelling against Daddy' or 'refusing to inherit the family business'.

I wouldn't blame Britney, if she had escaped, if she took action to save another sibling the Father intended to do the same with by taking them away from that situation.

I would empathise with Miranda in the same way. Perhaps with a real world example to draw from you could listen to her story in ME2 again when she describes her father etc and view it differently?

[Yhvh10]

Publicado originalmente por Jon_Smith:

Just one more thing to add to this.

Its popped into the news cycle again regarding Britney Spears and her conservatorship, with her talking about how they control her money, tell her what friends she can have, who she can date and marry, forced her to get an IUD and won't let her see a Doctor to take it out as she wants to have another kid and they don't want her to, how she has to work like a slave yet gets denied her passport, ID, basically her freedom and has no control over her life and money and how miserable that makes her.

I think its hard to sympathise with her Dad on this, assume he's trying to do the best for her.
Britney was a tool her Father used to get famous, he used her talent and sexuality to sell her as a brand and was hugely, hugely successful and wanted to keep all the fruits of her labour to himself.

I would be surprised if you would describe Britney as a 'spoilt rich kid' or 'rebelling against Daddy' or 'refusing to inherit the family business'.

I wouldn't blame Britney, if she had escaped, if she took action to save another sibling the Father intended to do the same with by taking them away from that situation.

I would empathise with Miranda in the same way. Perhaps with a real world example to draw from you could listen to her story in ME2 again when she describes her father etc and view it differently?

I dont follow any of the modern actors, singers, etc. I frankly think they are all just...♥♥♥♥. I prefer to focus more on myself and my friends around me.

However to address the rest of your post: I don't 'not' feel for Miranda. It just feels sorta underwhelming - ME3 creates more understanding of Miranda, however when I'm looking at it purely through the lens of ME2, specifically the loyalty mission, Miranda comes off as...well...ridiculous when stacked up against Jack, Garrus, Samara, Thane, etc.

The part I wholly disagree with though is the kidnapping of Orianna by Miranda, when looking at the situation strictly through the lens of ME2(Someone mentioned LotSB had some info, I'll need to go take a look next playthrough - tbh I never really looked at the terminals) I find Miranda's kidnapping of Orianna to sound and feel a bit like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ex-wife.

Its probably just me. But thats the fun thing about Mass Effect, its not all black and white. :)

[Ka-mai19]

Publicado originalmente por sloshalot:

I dont follow any of the modern actors, singers, etc. I frankly think they are all just...♥♥♥♥. I prefer to focus more on myself and my friends around me.

However to address the rest of your post: I don't 'not' feel for Miranda. It just feels sorta underwhelming - ME3 creates more understanding of Miranda, however when I'm looking at it purely through the lens of ME2, specifically the loyalty mission, Miranda comes off as...well...ridiculous when stacked up against Jack, Garrus, Samara, Thane, etc.

The part I wholly disagree with though is the kidnapping of Orianna by Miranda, when looking at the situation strictly through the lens of ME2(Someone mentioned LotSB had some info, I'll need to go take a look next playthrough - tbh I never really looked at the terminals) I find Miranda's kidnapping of Orianna to sound and feel a bit like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ex-wife.

Its probably just me. But thats the fun thing about Mass Effect, its not all black and white. :)

You seem to make the assumption that the dad is a "good guy" and Miranda is a jealous, envious woman who wants to take ♥♥♥♥ away from her dad because of said jealousy and envy. This is far from the case.

Pretend you had an overly manipulative, arrogant father who genetically engineered you not to be your own person but to serve as an extension of his personal legacy. Basically your reason for existing is to make your dad look good. Would you be acting like an ex-husband or ex-wife if you chose to leave him behind and save your sibling from a similar fate?

Edit: not to mention Miranda's situation with her father is more complicated than a general son/daughter refusing to take their parents' inheritance. Parents don't usually send mercenary death squads to coerce their children to do what they want, after all. Or try to have them killed if they refuse.