How bad is the illusive man

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

If you would rank him from 1-10 1=not very evil 10=evil as f*
I like his design he is this charismatic antagonist but i wouldn’t say he is totally evil

[alexander_dougherty]

He is evil, before ME3 he had a Human First agenda, to promote this agenda he killed (via agents) thousands of aliens, not because they threatened humans, but because they threatened the idea of Humans being better than them... he also wiped out entire groups of Humans with his experiments because the results would benefit the Human species... the experiments on Jack, Project Overlord, what happened to Shepard's original group, these all trace back to the Illusive Man, he personally approved these projects...

Then just prior to ME3 he gets indoctrinated and becomes even more evil...

[Kunyomi]

In my mind evil is a disney type bad guy, or a bond villain. Someone who is evil for the sake of doing bad things and laughing maniacally to the rhythm of thunder in the background.
The Illusive Man has a very clear goal that he is transparent about from the start, and the fact that he does morally and ethically bankrupt things don't change that.

He is ruthless, remorseless and calculating, but always to serve humanity. He actually had some limits on how far he would go as is seen in Jacks loyalty mission where the scientists say TIM wouldn't approve of their work, which he then corroborates during the missions debrief.

He, and by extension Cerberus, become evil in ME3 because of indoctrination.
Before that he is simply the kind of man you need to be to create something like Cerberus.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Kunyomi:

In my mind evil is a disney type bad guy, or a bond villain. Someone who is evil for the sake of doing bad things and laughing maniacally to the rhythm of thunder in the background.
The Illusive Man has a very clear goal that he is transparent about from the start, and the fact that he does morally and ethically bankrupt things don't change that.

He is ruthless, remorseless and calculating, but always to serve humanity. He actually had some limits on how far he would go as is seen in Jacks loyalty mission where the scientists say TIM wouldn't approve of their work, which he then corroborates during the missions debrief.

It's never elaborated why he wouldn't approve, whether it's because they crossed an ethical (rather than moral) line or because it was consuming too much money and resources for too little outcome...

But your definition of the Illusive Man fits my definition of Evil.

[Mati_Lublin]

#TIMdidnothingwrong
Seriously: In me1-2 he's more like ordinary terrorist, in me3 he's the worst possible traitor.

[Six of Saturn]

9(one point deducted for the Lazarus project) While he may have had a strong inner altruism for humanity. His ends rarely justified the means.

The Sanctuary plan was horrendous and formed before indoctrination. Not to mention all the other failed experiments at the expense of innocent lives.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Void Dragon:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

It's never elaborated why he wouldn't approve, whether it's because they crossed an ethical (rather than moral) line or because it was consuming too much money and resources for too little outcome...

But your definition of the Illusive Man fits my definition of Evil.

You must also think that Renegade Shepard is evil too then.

"Ruthless, remorseless, and calculating, but always to get the mission done"

It all depends on to what degree you play renegade, but yes 100% renegade is essentially evil.

[Hartford688]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by Void Dragon:

You must also think that Renegade Shepard is evil too then.

"Ruthless, remorseless, and calculating, but always to get the mission done"

It all depends on to what degree you play renegade, but yes 100% renegade is essentially evil.

Nah. Ruthless, yes. Evil, no.

Though of course evil is somewhat subjective.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Hartford688:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

It all depends on to what degree you play renegade, but yes 100% renegade is essentially evil.

Nah. Ruthless, yes. Evil, no.

Though of course evil is somewhat subjective.

Well yes it's subjective, and Paragon is sometimes idiotic, but most of the Renegade options are minor evil, which of course adds up... hence my personal opinion that 100% renegade is essentially evil... it followed on from the comment that someone's definition of the Illusive Man fit my definition of evil.

[Six of Saturn]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by Hartford688:

Nah. Ruthless, yes. Evil, no.

Though of course evil is somewhat subjective.

Well yes it's subjective, and Paragon is sometimes idiotic, but most of the Renegade options are minor evil, which of course adds up... hence my personal opinion that 100% renegade is essentially evil... it followed on from the comment that someone's definition of the Illusive Man fit my definition of evil.

Renegade does take some evil but at its core is egotism and ruthless operation against enemies. The Rachni choice may be Sheps most evil deed. Unlike TIM who lures with a handshake and a smile, while hiding a dagger behind his back.(Metaphorically)

[Champ Paper]

ME1 - 8
ME2 - 8.5
ME3 - 11

From what I've seen in the first game, Illusive Man did some pretty nasty things early on in the trilogy. Setting up marines for a thresher maw ambush, doing classified tests on exotic aliens, etc. That being said though, Cerberus' actions at that stage in the games didn't really jump off the page as super evil, perse. More so just kind of twisted and pro-human like what you've come to expect from a faction like them.

In Mass 2, Illusive Man does a good job at trying to manipulate Shep into being his friend/ally. He plays Mr. Nice Guy, but don't let the blue eyes and cigarillo smoke fool ya, he's a ♥♥♥♥. A couple questionable things come to mind that he did in the 2nd game: Supporting Project Overlord & wanting to keep the Collector Base. To me those two things show how immoral he is being caught up in the pro-human movement.

Now, In Mass 3 is where Illusive Man truly crosses the line. There's no coming back from the atrocities he commits and he should be treated at the beginning of this game as a complete and utter traitor to humankind. He's basically working with the Reapers, indoctrinating his own private army of Reaper-Human soldiers, causing havoc for every alien species in the galaxy and overall being a complete IDIOT. He basically becomes Saren 2.0 even though he claims to being too smart and well informed for that to happen. Any redeeming qualities that may have been in the first two games are non-existent in this one and thrown out the proverbial window. I think his character is interesting still, although he does come off as kind of a baby when he doesn't get his way and his justification for some of the things that Cerberus does just doesn't make sense... Maybe he was indoctrinated by the start of 3 and the whole game he is just doing what the Reapers suggest? That would explain why he goes hardcore on the Reaper tech and puts his fist down becoming a savage in the process. It's either that or he's just poorly written at the end of the trilogy and they didn't know what else to do with him. lol

TLDR; redeeming qualities in the first two games. Inhumanely bad in the third game.

[Outbound]

A lot of Renegade Shepard's evilness comes from making decisions based on what's convenient for them at the time. TIM doesn't even have that excuse. Every decision he makes is done with long term goals in mind.

TIM can seem less evil at times, but that's just because he's polite and charismatic. Does anyone really buy his explanation that all the Cerberus operations in ME1 involving feeding soldiers to Thresher Maws and turning colonists into Husks were really rogue cells? If you believe that, I've got some prime swampland on Tuchanka to sell you.

[benwaggoner]

If TIM is at a 9, full Renegade Shepard is maybe a 3?

Here's my rubric for evil versus ruthless.

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. But you can sure break a lot of eggs without getting an omelet out of it. Ruthless makes an omelet when an omelet is needed, and maybe breaks a few extra eggs by accident on the way. Evil doesn't mind breaking wasted eggs, and maybe goes out of the way to.

Replace eggs with "sentient life" and you have TIM. I have the sense he's more about enjoying the unbridled power and license than his focused on the end goals. He spends his ultimately limited resources on vanity, not just function, like in the Normandy retrofit. His dossier shows how he smokes knowing he has access to expensive anti-cancer treatment, has one-night stands with a variety of high-status women, and in general is indulging in the playboy life.

[Fryman]

Anyone who performs research that doesn't follow the Nuremberg Codes is a pretty bad person.

[Dr.Abscondus]

He was indoctrinated by the Reapers very early on, probably in ME1. If they got to Saren then the Illusive Man would be an obvious target for Sovereign, since it's right out of the Reapers playbook to incite factional wars between their target species. Javik said they did the same thing to his people. So not evil at all unless you think the indoctrinated are evil and not just puppets. He was just another victim of the Reapers.

[Champ Paper]

Originally posted by Dr.Abscondus:

He was indoctrinated by the Reapers very early on, probably in ME1. If they got to Saren then the Illusive Man would be an obvious target for Sovereign, since it's right out of the Reapers playbook to incite factional wars between their target species. Javik said they did the same thing to his people. So not evil at all unless you think the indoctrinated are evil and not just puppets. He was just another victim of the Reapers.

For some reason I find it hard to believe that TIM was indoctrinated that early on. If that were the case, Miranda would have noticed something because she was in direct contact with him. Something tells me that the indoctrination took place sometime between 2 & 3... could have been some Reaper tech Cerberus was studying (similar to Object Rho).