ROADMAP: Recommended Updates

[Sylar]

Attention, Dev Team.

I want to firstly apologize, in advance, if this sounds entitled. That is not the vibe I'm trying to give off. So, please read the contents of this post with an open mind, to take perspective as opposed to any offense which is not my intent here.

Kindly find below in good order a recommended list of updates which is suggested for the year running July 2023 to July 2024. This is a list of updates based on general feedback curation provided in a previous discussion (see link: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1326470/discussions/0/3829791007688130746/).

ROADMAP EXAMPLE

Major Update 1:

Cannibal Stamina and Appearance Update: Enhanced the design of cannibals to make them more intimidating and progressively alien-like over time. Incorporated more vocalizations for cannibals to create a sense of their ever-present nature. Made cannibals more strategic and territorial by having them patrol not just in the player's general direction but towards other areas. Implemented fatigue for cannibals when players are out of reach, allowing them to leave and plan ambushes for when the player is more accessible. Utilized the stamina, health, and strength settings of cannibals to affect their AI decision-making and make encounters with different cannibal types feel distinct. Introduced hybridization elements, between humanoid and demonoid cannibals, to add variety to the ensemble of monsters. Improved the nuance of the cave systems inhabited by cannibals, including visual details and atmospheric elements.

Craftable Weapons Increase Update: Increased the availability of craftable weapons to provide alternatives to relying heavily on guns. Fine-tuned the balance between weapons to create a more nuanced horror experience, moving away from a run-and-gun approach which is an aside and not a reliance. Introduced a wider range of craftable throwables like tomahawks, upgraded spears, blowguns, poison darts, and flaming/poison arrows. Explored the visceral impact of using larger rocks as throwable weapons at a very short but deadly range.

Right-handed Bow Update: Fixed the mistake of a right-handed player character shooting the bow left-handed, flipped the compound bow so that the shelf is on the correct side for a right-handed character, and made items such as the lighter and GPS equipable in the right hand while holding the bow in the left.

Crate and Suitcase Items Limit Update: Regarding items inside of crates and suitcases and other non-natural resources, you can now customize the item respawn rates with a convenient toggle/slider mechanism. Choose from three modes: Frequent Respawn for an abundant supply, Moderate Respawn which is seasonal, regardless of reloading a saved game, or No Respawn for a genuinely challenging survival experience. Tailor the game difficulty to your preference and enjoy a more personalized adventure.

Chest-building: Now being able to build wooden chests, to store food and medicine, but what's more is being able to load these chests onto log sleds for transport.

Difficulty Level Update: The game will have improved difficulty levels and a more realistic survival horror scenario.

Crafting Importance Update: Crafting will become more important to progressing through the story, and players will need to use resources more wisely.

Fire and Poison Weapons Update: These have now made a return, including a new blowgun crafted with a machete, two-halves of a stick, and duct tape, with darts now craftable using feathers, a stick, the machete, and the knife.

Base-Building Update: The need to access dispersed natural resources for stockpiling and crafting of munitions, like fire arrows and Molotov cocktails, will make base-building important to survival.

Item Scarcity Update: Items will be less abundant, and players will need to manage their resources effectively to progress.

Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable (e.g. Melee finishers have been added to the game for the knife, machete, and katana against kneeling enemies; you can now also stomp crawling enemies).

Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.

Solar Inverter and Battery Update: Added new collectible inverters that are required to convert AC to DC, and the fixtures used to connect the lightbulbs are now also collectible items, as they house the necessary solar batteries for the lightbulbs to function at night.


Major Update 2:

Range Increase Update: The range of the bow and slingshot have been increased by 50%, and improvements made to help improve aiming with the bow and arrow.

Weapon Attachment Update: Laser sights will be moved to the sides or bottom of the guns to avoid obstruction of the iron sight, reflex sight, or scope.

Graphics and Gameplay Update: The game's graphics will be further improved, and additional builds, such as rafts/boathouses, and also the driving of a specific working golf cart, will be included. The rafts can now be upgrades to use the MPET/tarp as a sail, alongside a paddle. The sail allows for steering using ropes.

Firearms Update: The shotgun will have a reflex sight attachment available to be placed on top of the barrel, and attachments like lasers and flashlights will not longer be on the top rail of firearms, but rather on the appropriate bottom or side rails. Fixed wrong ammo for the revolver issue and fixed rifle scope and shotgun ADS issues.

Nightvision Update: Nightvision quality will be improved to enhance the gaming experience.

Crossbow Update: Hip-firing will be allowed for the crossbow.

Trap Update: Tripwire traps have returned added and the turtle-shell launch pad is no longer a trap, but rather a non-trap building feature that can be used for scaling certain terrain/obstacles and is rebalanced for the use of reaching reasonably higher platforms more quickly. Added building of a snowman trap that explodes.

Place-and-Drag Building Update: Now, you can place and drag to build fences and walls, as an extra option, which makes spiked barriers easier and more precise to place.

Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable (e.g. Fire-hardening speartips is now possible to upgrades the power of your spears).

Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 3:

Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be increased to ensure that players have a more challenging experience.

Survival Horror Update: The game will become more of a survival horror simulator to challenge players to engage with the world more meaningfully, as dying more than once will result in a final death (game over for that player).

Cave Missions Update: The cave missions will be more difficult, and player planning will be incentivized to ensure a more common challenge.

Scarcity Update: The game will have a scarcity of certain emergency resources like MPET tarps, solar panels, ammunition, as well as the previous abundance of unicycles.

Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable (e.g. Twine for various new crafting features can now be crafted from plant fibers, which are harvested alongside leaves. This twine can be used to further craft rope or replace the need for duct tape, and is a source of wick for upgraded touches. Other torches without wicks will now only burn temporarily).

Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 4:

Storyline Update: The game's storyline will be improved to create a more immersive and engaging experience for players as well as ways for Kelvin and Virginia to contribute to the player experience inside of each of the cave systems, helping to create and shape a sense of cohesion regarding the ending of the game.

Crafting and Survival Update: Crafting will be further emphasized, and players will need to create items to progress through the game. For example, the leaf shelter that consists of sticks and leaves will now be available, due to the new scarcity of emergency MPET tarps, which will also help make base-building in a variety of areas more important to overall survival. The survival experience is improved, as prolonged hunger or cold will now have a more significant (yet reasonable) penalty to health. Added snowballs for disorienting enemies and melting in a pot for drinking.

Social Dynamics Update: The social dynamics behind co-opting in a survival horror game is restructured using common sense features to make the game more challenging and engaging. For example, players can now give more than just one item at a time to one another, and non-food items can be placed down on the ground in bundles.

Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be further increased, and players will need to use their wits to survive.

End-Game Challenge and Armor Update: Base-building will be more important to survival, and players will need to create unique campsites to stay alive. When all pieces of tech armor are collected, it becomes a suit, indestructible, but reduces only 50% of damage rather than eliminate damage completely. Gold armor will now reduce 75% of damage, including damage from demons, making the end-game more challenging.

Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable (e.g. Flickering/tearing issues of wet/snowy layers within closed-off buildings has now been fixed).

Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 5:

Graphics Update: The game's graphics will be improved, and additional builds, such as a boathouse, will be included.

Weapon Mechanics Update: The game's weapon mechanics will be improved to make them more realistic and immersive.

Legacy Update: The return of rafts, boathouses, and cave maps which help add lore to the dead cultists on the island and overcome GPS limitations inside of caves.

Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable (e.g. Enemies no longer spawn inside of your base by accident).

Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.

EXAMPLE OF NOTEWORTHY EXTRAS

Bow Spindle Update: The spindle attachment for fishing with compound bows as used in scuba archery will be added.

Transport Storage Update: The use of sticks to build storage units for the glider/unicycle or 3D printed sleds can be used to update/re-house their respawn locations.

DISCLAIMER

This post and all of the content herein are not claims, allegations, absolute assurances, or necessarily statements of facts, and may contain unverified information, or may be opinionated. It is your responsibility to be a sophisticated reader, not to misinterpret.

[Duke H. Vytantis]

still doing your best i see :D

[Sylar]

:D

For the glory of middle earth. 🌍
But front and back earth, top, bottom, and side earth too. 🌎
For sky, I'll go on this quest, for what it's worth, I do for you. ☁️

With sword in hand and shield on back. 🗡️🛡️
I'll face these foes and never slack. ⚔️

Through mountains high and forests dense. 🏔️🌳
My sword is long and girth immense. 🗡️💪

So lend your voice and be it known by all foe this tone wherewith we pluck the seed. 🗣️🌱
For whence we sow, we shall reap, and find the victory for which we bleed. 🌾🩸
To rejoice in more than canned food and endless mead. 🎉🍻

Originally posted by Duke H. Vytantis:

still doing your best i see :D

[Ementy]

Originally posted by Sylar:

Attention, Dev Team.

Kindly find below in good order a recommended list of updates which is suggested for the year running July 2023 to July 2024. This is a list of updates based on general feedback curation provided in a previous discussion titled, "Reviving Survival Horror: Urgent Fixes and Recommendations for an Immersive Gameplay Experience."


Major Update 1:

- Crate and Suitcase Items Limit Update: Items will no longer respawn more than once (per game year), even if players reload their saved games.

- Chest-building: Now being able to build wooden chests, to store food and medicine, but what's more is being able to load these chests onto log sleds for transport.

- Difficulty Level Update: The game will have improved difficulty levels and a more realistic survival horror scenario.

- Crafting Importance Update: Crafting will become more important to progressing through the story, and players will need to use resources more wisely.

- Fire and Poison Weapons Update: These have now made a return, including a new blowgun crafted with a machete, two-halves of a stick, and duct tape, with darts now craftable using feathers, a stick, the machete, and the knife.

- Base-Building Update: The need to access dispersed natural resources for stockpiling and crafting of munitions, like fire arrows and Molotov cocktails, will make base-building important to survival.

- Item Scarcity Update: Items will be less abundant, and players will need to manage their resources effectively to progress.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 2:

- Weapon Attachment Update: Laser sights will be moved to the sides or bottom of the guns to avoid obstruction of the iron sight, reflex sight, or scope.

- Graphics and Gameplay Update: The game's graphics will be further improved, and additional builds, such as rafts/boathouses, and also the driving of a specific working golf cart, will be included.

- Firearms Update: The shotgun will have a reflex sight attachment available to be placed on top of the barrel, and attachments like lasers and flashlights will not longer be on the top rail of firearms, but rather on the appropriate bottom or side rails.

- Nightvision Update: Nightvision quality will be improved to enhance the gaming experience.

- Crossbow Update: Hip-firing will be allowed for the crossbow.

- Trap Update: Tripwire traps have returned added and the turtle-shell launch pad is no longer a trap, but rather a non-trap building feature that can be used for scaling certain terrain/obstacles and is rebalanced for the use of reaching reasonably higher platforms more quickly.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 3:

- Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be increased to ensure that players have a more challenging experience.

- Survival Horror Update: The game will become more of a survival horror simulator to challenge players to engage with the world more meaningfully, as dying more than once will result in a final death (game over for that player).

- Cave Missions Update: The cave missions will be more difficult, and player planning will be incentivized to ensure a more common challenge.

- Scarcity Update: The game will have a scarcity of certain emergency resources like MPET tarps, solar panels, ammunition, as well as the previous abundance of unicycles.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 4:

- Storyline Update: The game's storyline will be improved to create a more immersive and engaging experience for players as well as ways for Kelvin and Virginia to contribute to the player experience inside of each of the cave systems, helping to create and shape a sense of cohesion regarding the ending of the game.

- Crafting and Survival Update: Crafting will be further emphasized, and players will need to create items to progress through the game. For example, the leaf shelter that consists of sticks and leaves will now be available, due to the new scarcity of emergency MPET tarps, which will also help make base-building in a variety of areas more important to overall survival. The survival experience is improved, as prolonged hunger or cold will now have a more significant (yet reasonable) penalty to health.

- Social Dynamics Update: The social dynamics behind co-opting in a survival horror game is restructured using common sense features to make the game more challenging and engaging. For example, players can now give more than just one item at a time to one another, and non-food items can be placed down on the ground in bundles.

- Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be further increased, and players will need to use their wits to survive.

- End-Game Challenge and Armor Update: Base-building will be more important to survival, and players will need to create unique campsites to stay alive. When all pieces of tech armor are collected, it becomes a suit, indestructible, but reduces only 50% of damage rather than eliminate damage completely. Gold armor will now reduce 75% of damage, including damage from demons, making the end-game more challenging.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 5:

- Graphics Update: The game's graphics will be improved, and additional builds, such as a boathouse, will be included.

- Weapon Mechanics Update: The game's weapon mechanics will be improved to make them more realistic and immersive.

- Legacy Update: The return of rafts, boathouses, and cave maps which help add lore to the dead cultists on the island and overcome GPS limitations inside of caves.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.

I just don't know if the devs have it in them to do all this in the time they say unless they hire more people.

But i'll add to the pile, if doing a blow gun do a shaman-esq type cannibal (rare as say a giant) who will shoot your with a poison/regular dart if in combat and over 6 ft from you

[Sylar]

OMG that's brilliant. Ha ha, I love that idea.

Originally posted by TDF Ementy:

...

But i'll add to the pile, if doing a blow gun do a shaman-esq type cannibal (rare as say a giant) who will shoot your with a poison/regular dart if in combat and over 6 ft from you

[Kydyrium]

Originally posted by Sylar:

Attention, Dev Team.

Kindly find below in good order a recommended list of updates which is suggested for the year running July 2023 to July 2024. This is a list of updates based on general feedback curation provided in a previous discussion titled, "Reviving Survival Horror: Urgent Fixes and Recommendations for an Immersive Gameplay Experience."


Major Update 1:

- Crate and Suitcase Items Limit Update: Items will no longer respawn more than once (per game year), even if players reload their saved games.

- Chest-building: Now being able to build wooden chests, to store food and medicine, but what's more is being able to load these chests onto log sleds for transport.

- Difficulty Level Update: The game will have improved difficulty levels and a more realistic survival horror scenario.

- Crafting Importance Update: Crafting will become more important to progressing through the story, and players will need to use resources more wisely.

- Fire and Poison Weapons Update: These have now made a return, including a new blowgun crafted with a machete, two-halves of a stick, and duct tape, with darts now craftable using feathers, a stick, the machete, and the knife.

- Base-Building Update: The need to access dispersed natural resources for stockpiling and crafting of munitions, like fire arrows and Molotov cocktails, will make base-building important to survival.

- Item Scarcity Update: Items will be less abundant, and players will need to manage their resources effectively to progress.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 2:

- Weapon Attachment Update: Laser sights will be moved to the sides or bottom of the guns to avoid obstruction of the iron sight, reflex sight, or scope.

- Graphics and Gameplay Update: The game's graphics will be further improved, and additional builds, such as rafts/boathouses, and also the driving of a specific working golf cart, will be included.

- Firearms Update: The shotgun will have a reflex sight attachment available to be placed on top of the barrel, and attachments like lasers and flashlights will not longer be on the top rail of firearms, but rather on the appropriate bottom or side rails.

- Nightvision Update: Nightvision quality will be improved to enhance the gaming experience.

- Crossbow Update: Hip-firing will be allowed for the crossbow.

- Trap Update: Tripwire traps have returned added and the turtle-shell launch pad is no longer a trap, but rather a non-trap building feature that can be used for scaling certain terrain/obstacles and is rebalanced for the use of reaching reasonably higher platforms more quickly.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 3:

- Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be increased to ensure that players have a more challenging experience.

- Survival Horror Update: The game will become more of a survival horror simulator to challenge players to engage with the world more meaningfully, as dying more than once will result in a final death (game over for that player).

- Cave Missions Update: The cave missions will be more difficult, and player planning will be incentivized to ensure a more common challenge.

- Scarcity Update: The game will have a scarcity of certain emergency resources like MPET tarps, solar panels, ammunition, as well as the previous abundance of unicycles.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 4:

- Storyline Update: The game's storyline will be improved to create a more immersive and engaging experience for players as well as ways for Kelvin and Virginia to contribute to the player experience inside of each of the cave systems, helping to create and shape a sense of cohesion regarding the ending of the game.

- Crafting and Survival Update: Crafting will be further emphasized, and players will need to create items to progress through the game. For example, the leaf shelter that consists of sticks and leaves will now be available, due to the new scarcity of emergency MPET tarps, which will also help make base-building in a variety of areas more important to overall survival. The survival experience is improved, as prolonged hunger or cold will now have a more significant (yet reasonable) penalty to health.

- Social Dynamics Update: The social dynamics behind co-opting in a survival horror game is restructured using common sense features to make the game more challenging and engaging. For example, players can now give more than just one item at a time to one another, and non-food items can be placed down on the ground in bundles.

- Difficulty Level Update: The game's difficulty will be further increased, and players will need to use their wits to survive.

- End-Game Challenge and Armor Update: Base-building will be more important to survival, and players will need to create unique campsites to stay alive. When all pieces of tech armor are collected, it becomes a suit, indestructible, but reduces only 50% of damage rather than eliminate damage completely. Gold armor will now reduce 75% of damage, including damage from demons, making the end-game more challenging.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.


Major Update 5:

- Graphics Update: The game's graphics will be improved, and additional builds, such as a boathouse, will be included.

- Weapon Mechanics Update: The game's weapon mechanics will be improved to make them more realistic and immersive.

- Legacy Update: The return of rafts, boathouses, and cave maps which help add lore to the dead cultists on the island and overcome GPS limitations inside of caves.

- Bonus Update: Any extra tweaks and new features, if applicable.

- Routine Bug Fixes Update: Various bugs and glitches that have been reported by the community will be addressed.

I doubt very much that the DEVs will add all this just to make a game YOU want.

[Kydyrium]

Originally posted by Sylar:

Originally posted by Broken Cyanide:

I doubt very much that the DEVs will add all this just to make a game YOU want.

Thank you for that incredibly productive and brain-tickling response.

But the Devs will make a game we all want and I'm part of the community, and this list was made based on what other people also want. I also happen to want the Devs to win a gaming award and make an even bigger fortune off their passion.

Plus, I want a kick-ass game to play with my friends. Now, if you don't want any of this, or have nothing to add, duly noted. I will add an extra line in their just for you, except it'll be blank because that's what you are contributing to this discussion.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

I don't think the DEVs will change their game to suit your taste.

[Deltafox]

Major update 7
Make the game run at 120fps on a steam deck
Add DXR
Add support for Nintendo switch ps5 & Xbox
Disable console commands in co op


This game is on life support

😆

[Andi]

@Sylar, appreciate your efforts, really do, but I think your better off copy/paste your op to the appropriate subreddit.
Seems there's at least SOME Endnight/Player communication going on.
I don't think writing anything here makes any sense, although Steam, as the selling platform, should be their no1 go-to and not a stupid subreddit, wich no one even knows about.

[Ataxio]

No

Hope this helps.

[Joseph Sneed]

Not one mention of fixing the bows/slingshot range and point of aim? Also I would throw in firearm ammo crafting as ammo for guns is already too scarce and I know they plan to add a hunting rifle and I would like to see an M4 and MP5 as well personally.

[Cheesyfof 🧀]

I totally agree that the weapons need some work. Using the semi-automatic pistol or the shotgun with rails on is almost impossible because the sights are completely blocked.
I personally feel like the archery is worse than The Forest too; I used the bow a lot in The Forest but I just can't bring myself to in SotF because it feels like it's impossible to actually "aim".
For arguments sake: with the revolver in SotF I can hit things at range while aiming whereas I can't hit things point blank with the shotgun or semi-automatic pistol.
And before it's said; I get that it is probably down to a skill issue but I'm not saying I'm "amaze-balls" or anything but I'm also not a "scrub" or whatever. The semi-auto pistol, shotgun and bows just feel really crap to use imo.

Regarding platform/console support: I feel like that's best saved until the game is in a more "stable" state so that they're working with a more solidly built product. Trying to support more platforms will only make it harder to actually develop the game as they'd have to maintain more versions of the game.

I will add that I'm not sure if posts in general yet alone posts like these get looked at on the Steam discussions because it just seems so toxic here.
Just about every other post/comment seems to be flaming, abuse and/or requests for more sexual content rather than actual constructive criticism so I would also suggest making Reddit or some other platform the devs may look at as your main place to post these.

[Cheesyfof 🧀]

Originally posted by Sylar:

I hear you. What you're saying makes sense.

Please take a look at the post, "Reviving Survival Horror."

Do you also feel the bow/slingshot could do with a 50% range increase?

Originally posted by Cheesyfof:

I totally agree that the weapons need some work. Using the semi-automatic pistol or the shotgun with rails on is almost impossible because the sights are completely blocked.
I personally feel like the archery is worse than The Forest too; I used the bow a lot in The Forest but I just can't bring myself to in SotF because it feels like it's impossible to actually "aim".
For arguments sake: with the revolver in SotF I can hit things at range while aiming whereas I can't hit things point blank with the shotgun or semi-automatic pistol.

And before it's said; I get that it is probably down to a skill issue but I'm not saying I'm "amaze-balls" or anything but I'm also not a "scrub" or whatever. The semi-auto pistol, shotgun and bows just feel really crap to use imo.

Honestly my main issue with the bows in SotF is that I just can't seem to tell where shots are actually going compared to in The Forest. Though I do recall that the drop-off is pretty steep in SotF so maybe a range increase would help.

[Sylar]

Duly noted, and agreed. Holding thumbs they notice our discussions.

Originally posted by Cheesyfof:

Honestly my main issue with the bows in SotF is that I just can't seem to tell where shots are actually going compared to in The Forest. Though I do recall that the drop-off is pretty steep in SotF so maybe a range increase would help.

[MustacheMan12]

Although I'm sure the devs will appreciate this cohesive and brought together list of recommended fixes, I think this could use some work.
- You need to be more specific and give some examples (If it's just a matter of the post being unfinished, disregard this). There's not much they will be able to make out of "this should be better, this should be more realistic, this should be harder...". For example, "the game should include an improved survival horror scenario, such as a sanity system that deteriorates the player and causes them to struggle with navigating and getting a full nights sleep".
- A good idea would be to poll players on their opinions on a potential feature, provide the amount of likes/dislikes and provide a general written consensus for both sides so the devs can make their decision on whether or not it's worth adding/changing.
- Ditch the major update formatting. There's a fair chance the team already has a structured workflow, with room for changes should additional bugs appear, and I don't think they will really care about the provided format here. It would be better to simply list them from critical to least important, and maybe further categorize by type of feature to make the list more digestible.
So yeah, those are my two cents. Nice to see others who try to bring light into the sea of sewage known as the Steam discussions.

[Joseph Sneed]

Just a thought you may want to add a link between this post and the other related one to the OP and vice versa.