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First of all, it's totally normal that game developers use both 3rd party plug-ins and 3rd party assets in their games, especially small indie developers like Endnight.
Also common practice is hiring freelancers for their projects because of obvious reasons.
That's how game development works. Has never been different.
Even AAA Studios, that have 100 times the manpower and the budget of a 15 person indie studio and running their own art departments do so.
The still buy assets like sample libraries, music licences or hire agencies for their voice overs. Just on another level.
So why trying to reinvent the wheel, if there are already tools and companies out there whi earn their money by supporting developers?
Assets akoje don't make a game by themselves. They're just the tip of the iceberg.
What makes an indie developer indie, in you opinion?
So it is okay to outsource Most of the Game and then let the people defend your poor little, Indiestudio who makes everything by itself and therefore we should Not critique the Bad decisions and programming Endnight Made over the Last years and month's.
Because this is what i read all the time Here.
Endnight is clearly Not longer an Indie company. At least Not by the Standards people Imagine an Indie Studio to be.
And for that, the Game is a Shell Made by other people and Endnight now struggles to fill it in now.
"Indie means independent. An individual or a small group of people using their own resources to develop an application without working under any organisation. However ,indie developers can still identify them as studios and work under the studio name."
Source wikipedia
An company who does the Work itself, at least what Most people Imagine.
Even the few people rule ist obsolet when you have enough Money to hire stuff, but you don't do it, even though you clearly need it.
The number of employees is usually about a several hundred, sometimes even more.
Indie Studios = small development studios with a limited budget and a rather small team of a handful artists.
While AAA studios have access to major investors or publishers
who back the development costs, Indies have to pay the development costs out of their own pocket most time or need to rely on other funding methods like e.g. crowdfunding .
Overall Indie developers are more independent in their decisions than AAA Studios are,
but they carry a higher financial risk in return.
AAA Studios however, have a greater financial leeway and more safety granted by huge companies investors, but they have to adhere to more guidelines and proven formulas, which in turn limits their artistic freedom.
How many employees does it take to transition to non-indie? How much money (kickstarted or EA profits, or previous game profits) does it take to be able to say "ok, now we can make some serious investments in this game. "? Is there a difference between making a million dollars of a small game, taking all the money, and keep slowly developing the game by yourself the same as investing a % back in the game so it can be better, finished on time etc,..
Does the financial ability to publish your own game mean you are no longer indie?
I'm just trying to establish a baseline, or lines that separate between the two; because it seems to me that Endnight should be financially capable to be called anything above indie by now, just by the profits from TF. Saying this without checking for actual numbers, just a speculation.
Personally I'm a little disappointed at SOTF early access progress considering they do outsource a lot of the game's aspects, probably mostly art but nonetheless, all this indie/AAA/EARLY access terms don't seem written in stone anywhere and are open for interpretation and we are at the mercy of the developers 100%, which again, personally, I don't quite like.
Where exactly in my post did i mention you're not 'allowed' to criticize mistakes?
And yes, it's ok to hire freelancers for indie projects. of course it is, and it's common practice in our business.
I used to work as a freelancer for years by myself and was involved in various game projects. that way, so I should know.
And the reason why companies prefer hiring freelancers above salary workers is obvious.
The jobs they're hired for usually take a few weeks or maybe a few months only.
Salary workers get hired for at least 6-12 months, maybe for the duration of a project.
So do the maths
And what exactly is Endnight studio in your opinion then if not Indie?
Let it be AA at it's best, but still not even close to AAA.
So show me a single, reputable source where endnight is NOT labeled as indie.
Also standards that people ( and gamers in particular) imagine, differ very often from reality.
So I prefer some more reliable sources like
https://www.gameopedia.com/indie-aaa-aa-games-comparison/,
or
https://www.cgspectrum.com/blog/difference-between-aaa-vs-indie-game-studio.
a nice summary would also be this one:
https://8bitplay.com/blog/aaa-vs-indie-game-studios-work-environment/
I'm sorry you got disappointed by your expectations, and I can kinda relate.
Yes: having a completely finalized game game right now would have been better than an EA game.
On the other hand, I rather prefer SOTF being EA, than endnight doing it the CP2077 or even the gollum style.
And compared to the original forest's EA, SOTF's seems to work way better.
About Indie/AAA/EA:
EA terms are clear and can be found on steam without any issue
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/earlyaccess
about the differences between Indie and AAA:
I already posted some links about that, but feel free to do your own research as well.
you could start with those I already mentioned.
https://www.gameopedia.com/indie-aaa-aa-games-comparison/,
or
https://www.cgspectrum.com/blog/difference-between-aaa-vs-indie-game-studio.
a nice summary would also be this one:
https://8bitplay.com/blog/aaa-vs-indie-game-studios-work-environment/
There you'll find some numbers, and pretty sure google will show you way more.
I never Said you did say this. Thats the commen wording people use in this Forum. That was what i'm saying. Or do you define yourself as "the people"?
I personally don't know what category Endnight falls into,in the end.
But it's fact that they have the Money And the resources. They outsourced the Models, did Most of the caves with some Programm they themself stated how fast this works and unity did probaly Help a lot with the map and graphics.
And people defend the state of the Game with saying, they are a little Indie company, with few manpower and well.l "EA Dude".
When they could Just Had hired more people ehen they got Problems. I mean, at least after the EA they could have hired someone who helps them Out.
This are now Just speculations. But this all reminds me of Gamefreak. When everyone in this Forum is already comparing this Game.
Gamefreak has the Money, but will Not hire more people. Because their Games and Merch get buyd anyways.
And No i'm Not saying Endnight is a AAA Game, or has to hire thousands of people. And i don't know what they did with the Money from EA.
But with the actual state, it Just reminded me of the pokemon-mess.
And thats my point. Endnight is No teeny tiny Indiegame with No Money And manpower.
They might be still Indie, but Not in the Sense people state they are.
Take this as Attack or that i twisted your words. I'm sorry when you See my Post as this, this was Not my intention. Thats Just my View on everything.
I mean, what Happend to all the EA Money?
Can a Game make millions and still label themself as Indie? Then we really need to relabel this, because everyone i known and read about thinks Indie = small Developer.
That 'twisting words' was because of the critics thingi you adressed to me earlier in my previous post. Because I didn't mention it in a single word.
And yes, a game or a company can have a few millions of revenue and still be considered as an indie.
Don't mix up revenue and profit.
Steam gets a 30% cut from the sales, 'The forest' IP has been in development for more than 10 years now.
So the remaining revenue was for paying the original development costs + the current ones over the period of 10 years at least, such as:
Personnel costs, Fees and remunerations for 3rd party jobs,
Office rent and operating costs, Legal and administrative costs,
licences needed for the gamedevelopment, taxes, new investments for soft- and hardware, etc.
Haven't still mention other costs yet, like loan Interest or fees related to the financing of the project.
Extrapolate this over the period of 10 years, and you might get an Idea about where the money went.
Also this was in the sentence with "the people" meaning, i meant the Community of this Forum.
They Said that the Initial plan was Not another Game. They wanted to concentrate on other Things. The AI stuff and all.
So, saying this Game pays the First Game seems weird. But i have No Idea how the Money works for Game developing.
So they are a Indie company. With way more Money, than to the forest Times and brought us this.
So technically, Bill Gates cold make a Game with only a few people, His Money dies Not matter. It is still Indie.
Interesting.
Lets's say you have an idea for a game, but maybe no money.
You may have some coding/modeling/other skills, but need people for the other stuff.
Maybe you've got a main job, so can start working on the game in your free time without being too concerned about money at first - at least in the beginning.
But sooner or later, you need to decide what's more important for you: your game or your current job because of the double burden.
If you decide for the game and quit your job, at that point, you also stop earning money till the game's release (EA for example), which will be in a few years.
What do you for a living during that time? And how are you going to fund the game-related investments needed for further development, that will occure later?
So you probably need some loans or investors. Maybe some crowdfunding or a Publisher.
But they're not welfare and therefore want something in return.
So once the game got released and eventually starts earning money after a couple of years, those institutions want their money back. Plus interests.
And if you extrapolate that over a few years, it adds up to quite a lot, doesn't it?
So there's where a lot of the revenue goes already.
The rest is divided between Steam, you and your team and the tax office.
But since the remaing money won't last forever, you either need to go back to your old job after this or start a new project, and the entire game starts over again
... and also way higher costs than they had during the old forest times.
That makes Sense.
I also don't really have anything against EA.
I just have the Feeling they didn't used the Money very wisely. But i'm jus petty about their decisions what they Put in the Game and was Not, so xx.
But this has nothing to do with this discussion.
But now i know what i can Tell Friends when they Wonder If it Indie or Not. Thanks for explaining.
This is further proof you and the rest of the circus don't know what you been talking about for the last 6 or so months.
Whenever someone like me , Borg or another critic say something like this, it is "misinformation" and "hate" and all kinds of lame excuses as if we all on some sort of political hate mission against Endnight. But now suddenly you figure crap that has been out there since release and you are pretending to be the prophet again.
Jesus christ, go talk to him. You need him in your life