Whats going on with the Churchill 3's hitbox?

[Benjy_Bones]

Playing the new campaign and its great fun, but the Churchill seems close to invincible at times and basically auto wins the mission after they appear. I beat two tigers in close to point blank duels, when in other tanks the Churchill seems to just bounce/absorb so many hits with no issue, not just on its side but its turret as well. At one point i turned a corner to see an '88 and the little Italian tank both point blanking a Churchill, at least 3 side hits from the '88 and the Churchill seems to not take damage even from the little Italian tank at point blank, the tank ran out of crew before it was killed, because they jumped out to fix the track, its only issue.

another time i was on an emplacement gun while the AI drove off in the Churchill and i shot it in the rear 3 times, it only stopped after i tracked it. I know it was a really well armoured tank but this feels broken.

[другCrosy]

88mm needs buff , it takes 3 shot to kill a churchill
but a 76mm M10 could 1 shot Tiger in front hull

[TheIdiot]

Agreed, the Churchill Mk. III seems absurdly overpowered. It's not a Mk. VII with 150mm of armour (which on the other hand in the Normandie campaign feels underpowered compared to the Mk. III), it shouldn't be able to survive multiple hits from 8.8cm guns at normal ranges. Even the PaK 38 should be able to defeat it reasonably easily from the sides, yet I've seen the Churchill tank repeated hits from point-blank from just about any gun and be fine. The only time I have lost one thusfar was due to immobilisation from enemy aircraft.

Don't even bother wasting time trying to fight the Churchill with Italian tanks, none of them mount an armament strong enough to destroy the Churchill, even from point-blank range and to the sides. I played one scenario where three Italian tanks parked on a ridge in front of my Churchill and sat there pounding my tank with AP shells and I simply sat there taking the hits picking them off one-by-one. Italian tanks were severely outmatched by 1943.

The QF 6-pdr gun mounted by the Mk. III Churchill also feels ridiculously overpowered. I don't know where Marco gets his stats for guns, but I found references elsewhere that list nowhere above 105mm of penetration for all marks of 6-pdr even at point-blank range. In-game the 6-pdr feels more like a 17-pdr, easily penetrating the Tiger frontally even at steep angles (which is impossible). The 6-pdr should struggle unless it is literally right in front of the Tiger and the Tiger isn't angled at all.

Source for 6-pdr penetration that is NOT Wikipedia (Wiki's data is inconsistent and all over the place, using different national standards for testing and not actually mentioning it):
https://wwiitanks.co.uk/FORM-Gun_Data.php?I=376
Even if we're talking about the improved 75mm tank gun mounted by the Mk. IV Churchill and upward, the gun would definitely still be overperforming:
https://wwiitanks.co.uk/FORM-Gun_Data.php?I=15

[другCrosy]

Originally posted by TheIdiot:

Agreed, the Churchill Mk. III seems absurdly overpowered. It's not a Mk. VII with 150mm of armour (which on the other hand in the Normandie campaign feels underpowered compared to the Mk. III), it shouldn't be able to survive multiple hits from 8.8cm guns at normal ranges. Even the PaK 38 should be able to defeat it reasonably easily from the sides, yet I've seen the Churchill tank repeated hits from point-blank from just about any gun and be fine. The only time I have lost one thusfar was due to immobilisation from enemy aircraft.

Don't even bother wasting time trying to fight the Churchill with Italian tanks, none of them mount an armament strong enough to destroy the Churchill, even from point-blank range and to the sides. I played one scenario where three Italian tanks parked on a ridge in front of my Churchill and sat there pounding my tank with AP shells and I simply sat there taking the hits picking them off one-by-one. Italian tanks were severely outmatched by 1943.

The QF 6-pdr gun mounted by the Mk. III Churchill also feels ridiculously overpowered. I don't know where Marco gets his stats for guns, but I found references elsewhere that list nowhere above 105mm of penetration for all marks of 6-pdr even at point-blank range. In-game the 6-pdr feels more like a 17-pdr, easily penetrating the Tiger frontally even at steep angles (which is impossible). The 6-pdr should struggle unless it is literally right in front of the Tiger and the Tiger isn't angled at all.

Source for 6-pdr penetration that is NOT Wikipedia (Wiki's data is inconsistent and all over the place, using different national standards for testing and not actually mentioning it):
https://wwiitanks.co.uk/FORM-Gun_Data.php?I=376
Even if we're talking about the improved 75mm tank gun mounted by the Mk. IV Churchill and upward, the gun would definitely still be overperforming:
https://wwiitanks.co.uk/FORM-Gun_Data.php?I=15

Its possible to disable Churchill with Spagetti tank tho
just hit in the rear , engine part

[skauVictor]

Something is indeed very wrong with the Churchill 3. I was shooting it with a Panzer 3, aiming for the sides and back as usual. This worked well on my previous attempt at the Tebourba Gap, but now I cant seem to disable the Churchill at all. In one case, I shot it 15-20 times. The damage? Broken tracks. That was it, after shooting it 15-20 times in the sides and back, I broke its tracks. Afterwards, the Churchill did a kickflip (glitched inside some rocks or something I guess), then blew me up. How great.

[Carcajou101]

The dev doesn't care about it as it was stated already a couple of months ago that German guns are under powered vs reality. Even when one provided facts about performance regarding German Guns.

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

The dev doesn't care about it as it was stated already a couple of months ago that German guns are under powered vs reality. Even when one provided facts about performance regarding German Guns.

Not sure what you are referring to, when we are given informations about wrong caliber, bullet penetration or armor thickness data we always do our best to implement the change in the game. If you have some on this regard feel free to let us know, in the game you can check and try every single caliber and read it's data trough the Shooting Range

[Carcajou101]

Originally posted by Marco Amadei Corvostudio:

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

The dev doesn't care about it as it was stated already a couple of months ago that German guns are under powered vs reality. Even when one provided facts about performance regarding German Guns.

Not sure what you are referring to, when we are given informations about wrong caliber, bullet penetration or armor thickness data we always do our best to implement the change in the game. If you have some on this regard feel free to let us know, in the game you can check and try every single caliber and read it's data trough the Shooting Range

It had happen once regarding German guns performance. Be it, the KWK 40,42,43, i was giving you data with those guns to correct the under performance of them in this game and you didn't answer me in that message. All German guns are under performing and it's not normal to shoot 3 times to kill a T-34/76 with kwk 40 or with the kwk 42 and the kwk 43, 2-3 times to kill US M-18 Hellcat or M-36 tank destroyer. Now it's the Churchill tank which are able to witstand those guns and it takes 3 shots of 88mm L/56 to kill it.

[Carcajou101]

For the KWK 36 L/56 Guns using the APCBC and APCR categories of rounds.
Starting with the APCBC:
At 100m you have 120mm of Pen.
At 500m, 110mm.
At 1000m, 100mm.
At 1500m, 91mm and at 2000m, 84mm.
Now with the APCR:
At 100m it's 170mm.
At 500m, 155mm.
At 1000m, 138mm.
At 1500m, 123mm and finally at 2000m, 110mm.

All data of armor penetration are when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30 degrees and using high quality, High Brinell of German armor.

[Carcajou101]

Regarding the KWK 43 L/71 using APCBC(Pzgr.39/43) and APCR(Pzgr.40/43) rounds.
At 100 meters range you, have 202mm of Pen.
At 500 meters, 185mm.
At 1000 meters, 165mm.
At 1500, 148mm and at 2000 meters, 132mm for the APCBC rounds.
Now for the APCR:
At 100 meters it's 238mm.
At 500 meters, 217mm.
At 1000 meters, 193mm
At 1500 meters, 171mm and finally at 2000 meters, 153mm.

All data of armor penetration are when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30 degrees and using high quality, High Brinell of German armor.

[Carcajou101]

The Tiger 1 armor quality was excellent, Brinell hardness up to 260-280 better than all WW2 tanks. Even the Tiger 2 armor quality and contrary to what as been stated are equal to the Allies with a Brinell hardness up to 210-240 comparable of British plates.

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

Originally posted by Marco Amadei Corvostudio:

Not sure what you are referring to, when we are given informations about wrong caliber, bullet penetration or armor thickness data we always do our best to implement the change in the game. If you have some on this regard feel free to let us know, in the game you can check and try every single caliber and read it's data trough the Shooting Range

It had happen once regarding German guns performance. Be it, the KWK 40,42,43, i was giving you data with those guns to correct the under performance of them in this game and you didn't answer me in that message. All German guns are under performing and it's not normal to shoot 3 times to kill a T-34/76 with kwk 40 or with the kwk 42 and the kwk 43, 2-3 times to kill US M-18 Hellcat or M-36 tank destroyer. Now it's the Churchill tank which are able to witstand those guns and it takes 3 shots of 88mm L/56 to kill it.

About this, the fact that we can't phisically read all messages we receive I assure you it's not a lack of interest on improving the game. Unfortunatly if you consider messages we read on Steam Discussions, Discord, Mails, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok and Youtube comments we easily reply to over 100 messages per day. In general the best way to have your suggestion being kept into consideration it's to leave a post on the "Suggestion" forum on Disord where they can be tracked for long times and be easily recovered when there is time to work on them, or to use the "Feedback" channel on Discord if what you are reporting is something urgently needing a fix within the shortest possible time.

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

For the KWK 36 L/56 Guns using the APCBC and APCR categories of rounds.
Starting with the APCBC:
At 100m you have 120mm of Pen.
At 500m, 110mm.
At 1000m, 100mm.
At 1500m, 91mm and at 2000m, 84mm.
Now with the APCR:
At 100m it's 170mm.
At 500m, 155mm.
At 1000m, 138mm.
At 1500m, 123mm and finally at 2000m, 110mm.

All data of armor penetration are when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30 degrees and using high quality, High Brinell of German armor.

About this, tank system in game at the moment doesn't allow to have multiple different type of AP bullets so we tend to decide to use the most common AP round per each gun, for the case of the 88mm it is the APCBC.
However, as you say that round would only penetrate up to 120mm, while the less common but more powerful APCR would reach 170mm so, again,. since we have to choose one single type of "generic" AP round we went with a middle ground bullet that penetrates 153mm at 90 deg close range.
Since this round is exactly between the two kind of real AP rounds that existed, and since this pen amount is fine to hit most of the tanks in game from the front, this already sounds like a very good compromise between what you are suggesting, at least imo.

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

Regarding the KWK 43 L/71 using APCBC(Pzgr.39/43) and APCR(Pzgr.40/43) rounds.
At 100 meters range you, have 202mm of Pen.
At 500 meters, 185mm.
At 1000 meters, 165mm.
At 1500, 148mm and at 2000 meters, 132mm for the APCBC rounds.
Now for the APCR:
At 100 meters it's 238mm.
At 500 meters, 217mm.
At 1000 meters, 193mm
At 1500 meters, 171mm and finally at 2000 meters, 153mm.

All data of armor penetration are when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30 degrees and using high quality, High Brinell of German armor.

The only instance of the using of this gun in game rn is the Pak 43.
This already use the APCR round, very common during WW2 for this specific gun, so we gave it exactly the pen amount you are suggetsing, so it's 240mm (probably comes from a different source, but it's almost equivalent)

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

In short, looking at your messages it doesn't seem like we are using different data on the weapons you reported in this thread. Before spending time on reporting data you think might be wrong in game, I suggest again to make sure that we are not actually already the same data as you trough the shooting range.
Also while I do my best to stay behind Steam Discussion, me and all the team spend most of our time on the Discord where we have tools to disucss and keep tracks of suggestions, so I encourage you again to use that social if you feel like you have usefull informations to bring to the game

[Carcajou101]

Originally posted by Marco Amadei Corvostudio:

Originally posted by Carcajou101:

Regarding the KWK 43 L/71 using APCBC(Pzgr.39/43) and APCR(Pzgr.40/43) rounds.
At 100 meters range you, have 202mm of Pen.
At 500 meters, 185mm.
At 1000 meters, 165mm.
At 1500, 148mm and at 2000 meters, 132mm for the APCBC rounds.
Now for the APCR:
At 100 meters it's 238mm.
At 500 meters, 217mm.
At 1000 meters, 193mm
At 1500 meters, 171mm and finally at 2000 meters, 153mm.

All data of armor penetration are when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30 degrees and using high quality, High Brinell of German armor.

The only instance of the using of this gun in game rn is the Pak 43.
This already use the APCR round, very common during WW2 for this specific gun, so we gave it exactly the pen amount you are suggetsing, so it's 240mm (probably comes from a different source, but it's almost equivalent)

Thank you for the reply but i have to correct you about the second generation of 88mm gun. The Jagdpanther also use it which is the same gun as the King Tiger the KWK 43 and the former is in the game. Also you can check the KWK 42 of the Panther it has a better Penetration capability than the KWK 36 but less explosive with the filer. Also do you plan to add the King Tiger and other Big German tanks like the Jagdtiger? And if it's the case by the same time the IS-2 and The ISU-152.

Thank you.