Bolt Action Realism Suggestion

[watermatte]

i really like the Lee Enfield bolt action middle finger trigger tecnique, but any of the enemy soldiers picking up the rifle wouldnt know how to do that and would just fire and reload the regular way

[whatsit_weasel-ALLKEYSHOP]

also slower usage speed and jamming for enemy weapons

[watermatte]

allied soldiers technically wouldnt be able to reload MG barrel as effectively as well if at all

[Johannes de Nova]

Most British soldiers wouldn't know how to do this either. The middle finger grip used in the game was a late war tactic for close ranges meant to be more precise than hipfiring (though not necessarily to replace hipfiring), formally introduced in the October 1944 Weapons Training Manual No. 7, section 43 and 44(a): https://vickersmg.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/wtm07.pdf.

In theory, this new middle finger grip was meant to be used for extreme close ranges, "40 yds can be taken as an absolute maximum," but sometime after WW2 fudd lore somehow combined it with the Mad Minute concept (likely vets doing sport shooting trying to impress spectators) and now everyone thinks it was normal to fire a Lee-Enfield that way at all times. It's ironic, because this grip was intended for the opposite scenario (close range mobile snap shooting) from what Mad Minute exercises were designed for, which was aimed precision (not just "shoot fast").

In reality, I don't think a single wartime photo/film exists of the bolt being gripped with the index finger while the trigger is fired with the middle one. Looks cool though, and since the tactic definitely existed by the end of the war, I think it's fine to reference it. But weapons in the game maintain their characteristics regardless of who holds them, and there is no need to overcomplicate things just for niche cases like this.

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Would surely be a cool little detail to have the middle finger technique only for few British units, if there is time to make this later on I'll surely will

[Johannes de Nova]

Originally posted by Marco Amadei Corvostudio:

Would surely be a cool little detail to have the middle finger technique only for few British units, if there is time to make this later on I'll surely will

The grip used with the Lee-Enfield rifles already is the middle finger grip (can be seen with how the thumb is already on the bolt before firing), though I think the animation is currently not fully functional since the FPS trigger animation only uses the index finger (Wroklawski made a post about this discrepancy in the Discord Feedback channel).

OP was suggesting that only the British faction should do that when holding the Lee-Enfield, meaning the gun would have a different animation and fire rate if picked up by a German. That would be an entirely new mechanic to consider, as "weapon knowledge" could be a factor for all captured weapon use.

[Daimo]

Once or twice I emptied my SA80 by using my middle finger. Took maybe 10 seconds a mag

[Marco Amadei [Corvostudio]]

Originally posted by Johannes de Nova:

Originally posted by Marco Amadei Corvostudio:

Would surely be a cool little detail to have the middle finger technique only for few British units, if there is time to make this later on I'll surely will

The grip used with the Lee-Enfield rifles already is the middle finger grip (can be seen with how the thumb is already on the bolt before firing), though I think the animation is currently not fully functional since the FPS trigger animation only uses the index finger (Wroklawski made a post about this discrepancy in the Discord Feedback channel).

OP was suggesting that only the British faction should do that when holding the Lee-Enfield, meaning the gun would have a different animation and fire rate if picked up by a German. That would be an entirely new mechanic to consider, as "weapon knowledge" could be a factor for all captured weapon use.

Yeah I mean to have the animation only on some soldiers instead of everyone as the post suggest.
As the technique was mostly know to british units it would be cool later on to make a set of animations to use the Enfield without the technique, for example in case other factions uses the rifle.

[jptenn]

The Index/Middle Finger method dates to the "Mad Minute" drill.
"The Mad Minute was a pre-World War I bolt-action rifle speed shooting exercise used by British Army riflemen, using the Lee–Enfield service rifle. The exercise formally known as "Practice number 22, Rapid Fire, The Musketry Regulations, Part I, 1909", required the rifleman to fire 15 rounds at a "Second Class Figure" target at 300 yd (270 m)."

Quote taken from Wikipedia "Mad Minute"

[Johannes de Nova]

Originally posted by jptenn:

The Index/Middle Finger method dates to the "Mad Minute" drill.

Associating the middle finger grip with the "Mad Minute" did not happen until after WW2, likely among sport shooters. There are no known wartime or prewar references to the middle finger grip tying it to the Mad Minute exercise, which makes sense as the Mad Minute exercise actually stressed aimed precision while firing quickly, something that the middle finger grip seriously inhibits which is why the manual that actually introduced it - in October 1944 - considered 40 yards to be its maximum use range.

The rest of the passage you quoted from Wikipedia says nothing about the use of the middle finger to pull the trigger, which was not a part of the Mad Minute drill. You also won't find any photo or footage of that grip being used in either World War, as it only entered official practice for specific close-quartered scenarios late in WW2. If you do, please post it here as I've spent a long time trying to find any.

Pretty much everything the layman imagines about both this grip and the Mad Minute training drill has been sensationalized myth which keeps getting recycled by pop history, when in fact, we have a clear paper trail historical record for the origin of the grip, and the Mad Minute was a precision-based training exercise, not a distinct combat tactic of "shoot fast to imitate machine guns."

[sethgaines]

Just from looking at how you have to hold the rifle to use this grip, I can't see any way to aim at any distance. Can you actually put the stock to your shoulder, and look down the sights while doing this?

[Johannes de Nova]

Originally posted by sethgaines:

Just from looking at how you have to hold the rifle to use this grip, I can't see any way to aim at any distance. Can you actually put the stock to your shoulder, and look down the sights while doing this?

Yes, you can, but it is not meant for regular shooting nor for sustained periods. I recommend reading the section beginning at the bottom of page 27 of this PDF, which is the aforementioned October 1944 manual: https://vickersmg.blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/wtm07.pdf.

[Replica-2501]

The whole thing comes across as though it needs to be put on the same list of military mythology as longbows shooting through plate armor, katanas cutting through machine gun barrels and soviet infantry being given one rifle for every two soldiers.