Unreal Tournament Games Are Exceptionally Flawed

[Francisè von Spitroast]

Don't want to read this and/or think no-one else will? That's nice. You don't need to let me know. This is an admitted rant/ramble going in-depth with the game's worse mechanics. Feel free to move on.

Sure, play it casually on easier skill levels or against poor players and you're going to have the time of your life. From that perspective, I totally understand the immense praise, but once you really know the game's mechanics, all four UT games are totally bawked.
I love these games and always will, hence why I've spent hundreds of hours playing them since childhood, but they're so poorly designed in some aspects that it results in constant frustration. Multiplayer first-person shooters are always highly imperfect, but UT has some severe flaws that confound me.

In no particular order of offense:
1. Spawning is atrocious. UT99 is the worst offender, but UT2K4 barely improved upon it. Whether you get to spawn next to a Lightning Gun or a Rocket Launcher is up to a roll of a dice. Often you or enemies are spawned next to low health players, or next to high health players with good weaponry whilst you're wielding nothing but pea-shooters. Capture the Flag and Bombing Run also has enemies spawn near the same place you just killed them, making you fight a never-ending onslaught of respawning enemies. A very obvious and simple fix already implemented in dozens of other games is to have a respawn timer.
2. How it took 15 years and one cancelled sequel to realise that double tapping a key to dodge is a blatantly stupid decision boggles my mind. There's an inherent delay of having to tap a key twice that makes it physically impossible to dodge nearly as fast as the bots do. It also makes dodging of walls come less into play. It also results in accidental dodges constantly. The obvious solution is to have a dedicated dodge key like in UT4. Maybe it lowers the skill gap of dodging effectively, but when it's literally impossible regardless of speed to dodge even nearly as fast as the bots, and when it prevents accidentally flying off into one of Unreal Tournament's frequent hazardous pits and liquids and in a game that has a huge emphasis on player movement, it again boggles my mind that this wasn't implemented after Unreal (1998).
3. This is probably the most frustrating one... being bounced by projectiles. It can prevent dodging as your feet are lifted slightly above the ground and it can send you flying into pits or into other people's projectiles. It can also take your aim off target. The Shock Rifle in particular sends people flying and it's just ridiculous. Again, UT is full of damaging toxins and lava pits, so whose idea was it to have weapons that shove the player? Thankfully it's annoyingness was marginally decreased in UT2K4 compared to UT99, but it's still annoying all the same.
4. Weapon swapping is too slow. This is basically only a problem due to the Flak Cannon. Finally get into that precise range on a target for a one-hit-Flak kill for likely an incredibly short amount of time? Don't even bother trying to swap gun as it leaves you defenceless for precious mili-seconds and by the time you've swapped you've likely already been shoved away by projectiles or the opponent has moved. I get why this exists in some games, but it shouldn't in UT.
5. The Flak Cannon is next to useless. You can spam that shell and get a kill here and there but the main fire is so slow and so spread out that its usefulness is extremely limited. You can be within a literal metre of a Godlike bot and they will dodge out the way of the spread. The bouncing usually hurts you more than the enemies (in UT99 at least) as rarely can you use that feature to your advantage.
6. Unreal Tournament has some of the worst weapon balancing I've ever seen. Hitscan weapons are easily the most important. Nothing beats the Shock Rifle, Sniper Rifle or Lightning Gun, and they're on every single map. All three have the ability to kill enemies in a single hit/explosion. The Minigun is also powerful. They do huge damage and are instant, unlike everything else (besides the Assault Rifle and Link Gun secondary, both of which are pathetically weak) which have very slow projectile speeds. Guns are meant to be useful in different scenarios, but the Lightning Gun outclasses absolutely everything. Combine that with a Shock Rifle and you're going to undoubtedly decimate anyone not wielding the same combo if your aim's good enough. The Automags were too powerful in UT99, but they were too heavily nerfed with the replacement Assault Rifles. Hilariously small damage even when duel-wielding along with inherent inaccuracy and grenades that bounce incessantly and are very easy to dodge make you almost defenceless with them. The Bio Rifle isn't that bad but in a game as fast paced as this, getting the opportunity to block paths as intended isn't all that common, and it's pathetic in comparison to the aforementioned weapons in almost all scenarios. The Link Gun's great for AI who don't miss, but the secondary stream is very thin making you have to be directly on target and doesn't do a whole lot of damage, and the main fire's projectiles are so slow but thankfully highly damaging that they're only useful for spreading a corridor. The Rocket Launcher in particular is so slow that it's just a joke, and unlike in UT99 can only fire three rockets at once making it even less useful. I've already talked about the Flak Cannon. Even the Redeemer's blast radius is too small to be as devistating as intended. Even the Shock Rifle is a spammy weapon when trying to nail those balls, so the vast majority of weapons in the game invite spamming. Three weapons in the game are outclassed in almost all situations. Not good.
7. Hitboxes suck. The Shock ball hits the environment constantly when it doesn't look like it should and the primary Shock fire goes through it when it clearly shouldn't. Some player models are fat while others are thin, and headshots feel like a roll of the dice as they clearly don't align with the models' heads.
8. What is with the level design in this game? You're giving us the ability to dodge-jump, yet put archways and superfluous, juttering junk on every wall, along with constant inclines that prevents us from doing just that. This is on almost every Deathmatch map. Why? Stop putting visual candy that gets me stuck constantly and hampers my freedom of movement.
9. AI is infuriating on Godlike. They move like Russian basement dwellers hopped up on crack, except even the best players in the world can't move as fast as these guys because they have zero delay in dodges. They don't have clumsy fingers that require double-pressing a key and they dodge one after another effortlessly and off walls at ludicrous speeds. It looks like watching a ball in a pinball machine when you fight these guys. No one can physically move as fast as these guys regardless of skill and it's really, really dumb. They really couldn't have programmed a slight delay in dodge? They'd still be brutal even if they weren't cheating. I won't even start on the team AI in objective modes...

Again, I love these games, but they didn't improve with any sequel - only expanded. Perhaps these issues wouldn't be as annoying when playing with real players who have actual natural limitations, but while the Godlike AI are still much easier than real pros since they're more predictable and have programming limitations, they exceed Human capabilities in other areas.

[jahpeg]

imagine acting like this is new info
ut2003/2004 is easily the worst of the bunch for some of the reasons you mentioned, especially with the game's apparent focus on projectiles which entirely contrasts its oversized maps. ut3 is probably the only game in the series that plays acceptably

[Francisè von Spitroast]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von scudgel:

imagine acting like this is new info
ut2003/2004 is easily the worst of the bunch for some of the reasons you mentioned, especially with the game's apparent focus on projectiles which entirely contrasts its oversized maps. ut3 is probably the only game in the series that plays acceptably

No need for the dismissive attitude. Considering how UT2K4 is many people's favourites, how hated UT3 is by the fanbase and how UT99 shares many of these faults, it's not fair to act as though I'm just stating the obvious. Almost all I have ever seen about UT2K4 over the years is praise.

[Fren]

The A.i. in ut3 is the worst i've ever seen. 90% of the time they dont even follow orders

[Francisè von Spitroast]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Fren:

The A.i. in ut3 is the worst i've ever seen. 90% of the time they dont even follow orders

I've seen bots in UT2K4 stand and stare at me as I tell them to attack, but yeah, from memory you're right about that.
I was going to go through all the DeathMatch maps like I did for UT99 but then I realised that I actually really, really don't like this game on Godlike. It's one of the most infuriating things I have ever played.

[OJMoody, Yorkshires Finest]

Hi, Im gonna respond to this as best as possible, while taking into consideration all factors of the game: Offline, Online, Competitive Play & Modding.

1) Agree and Disagree -
For the Agree, Spawning near certain pickups is random and nothing can be done about it in terms of vanilla play. Competitive scene uses mods such as Ut-Comp, which give the user the full load out every single spawn meaning this issue can be avoided.
For the Disagree, As for team games such as bombing run and capture the flag, there are re-spawn delays to stop this form of "Spawn-killing" from happening, and knowing the speed of online play, this is very helpful.
2) Meh -
I don't really mind this as i have gotten used to double tap dodging. Some mods have it as an enable feature so if you get hold of mods to fix this, that's up to you. If you don't like modding your game, just go play UT4, its a 18 year old game
3) Slightly Disagree -
Very dependant on the map you're playing and on. With the amount of air control you have, its very easy to redirect yourself from death.
4) Strongly Disagree -
Quick swap times encourages Spam, dedicating to your weapon encourages use of map control and map flow, which most maps (Some official, some unofficial) are good for on a pro level.
5) Very Strongly Disagree -
Flak is overpowered and mods have nerfed the weapon, no arguments needed for this one.
6) Slightly Disagree -
With the exception of the flak cannon being OP and the Bio Rifle being UP, every weapon is fairly balanced. If you're playing onslaught, they have their own dedicated weapons which make the other weapons useless against vehicles but if we are talking about weapons in small deathmatch maps, the balance is fairly even across the board.
7) Agree and Disagree -
For agree, Very true in regards to character models, on our server, we have blocked the use of "Matrix" Due to the thin, very dark character model which is hard to see on dark maps. and all different characters form a slightly different hit box. In offline this isn't an issue and after playing online for hundreds of hours, i dont feel as if it makes a difference online either,
For disagree, As for the competitive and modding scene, UT-Comp forces one model and bright skins equality of game play
8) Meh -
Depends on the map. Some maps, both official and custom, are bad in this regard and some are good in this regard. all i can say for this one, choose which maps are in your map rotation, which is a feature of the official game.
9) Agree -
Godlike AI are cheaters. Play masterful for the best (Most Human) Bots.

Conclusion
UT3 is an expansion of UT2004, and UT2004 is an expansion of UT99, that's what sequels are. Non are better than the others but each have their benefits and drawbacks. Please remember this game was released over 15 years ago and if you really don't like the base game, mod it. I can guarantee most people here have modded their game. Hope these points aren't taken the wrong way and hope they can be understood as best as possible. These are all biased towards my years of experience. If anything can be misinterpreted, hit me up and ill change my point to be more understandable.

[Francisè von Spitroast]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von OJMOODY:

Hi, Im gonna respond to this as best as possible, while taking into consideration all factors of the game: Offline, Online, Competitive Play & Modding.

1) Agree and Disagree -
For the Agree, Spawning near certain pickups is random and nothing can be done about it in terms of vanilla play. Competitive scene uses mods such as Ut-Comp, which give the user the full load out every single spawn meaning this issue can be avoided.
For the Disagree, As for team games such as bombing run and capture the flag, there are re-spawn delays to stop this form of "Spawn-killing" from happening, and knowing the speed of online play, this is very helpful.
2) Meh -
I don't really mind this as i have gotten used to double tap dodging. Some mods have it as an enable feature so if you get hold of mods to fix this, that's up to you. If you don't like modding your game, just go play UT4, its a 18 year old game
3) Slightly Disagree -
Very dependant on the map you're playing and on. With the amount of air control you have, its very easy to redirect yourself from death.
4) Strongly Disagree -
Quick swap times encourages Spam, dedicating to your weapon encourages use of map control and map flow, which most maps (Some official, some unofficial) are good for on a pro level.
5) Very Strongly Disagree -
Flak is overpowered and mods have nerfed the weapon, no arguments needed for this one.
6) Slightly Disagree -
With the exception of the flak cannon being OP and the Bio Rifle being UP, every weapon is fairly balanced. If you're playing onslaught, they have their own dedicated weapons which make the other weapons useless against vehicles but if we are talking about weapons in small deathmatch maps, the balance is fairly even across the board.
7) Agree and Disagree -
For agree, Very true in regards to character models, on our server, we have blocked the use of "Matrix" Due to the thin, very dark character model which is hard to see on dark maps. and all different characters form a slightly different hit box. In offline this isn't an issue and after playing online for hundreds of hours, i dont feel as if it makes a difference online either,
For disagree, As for the competitive and modding scene, UT-Comp forces one model and bright skins equality of game play
8) Meh -
Depends on the map. Some maps, both official and custom, are bad in this regard and some are good in this regard. all i can say for this one, choose which maps are in your map rotation, which is a feature of the official game.
9) Agree -
Godlike AI are cheaters. Play masterful for the best (Most Human) Bots.

Conclusion
UT3 is an expansion of UT2004, and UT2004 is an expansion of UT99, that's what sequels are. Non are better than the others but each have their benefits and drawbacks. Please remember this game was released over 15 years ago and if you really don't like the base game, mod it. I can guarantee most people here have modded their game. Hope these points aren't taken the wrong way and hope they can be understood as best as possible. These are all biased towards my years of experience. If anything can be misinterpreted, hit me up and ill change my point to be more understandable.

We might be coming at this from different angles - both of which are valid. I've never had the opportunity to play against real players and likely the many small nuisances of this game that are made more obvious when fighting against AI are less brash when fighting against Human enemies with imperfect movement.

1. Of course things can be done about it. You put systems in place to determine who is where so you don't spawn next to people. Not that complex and many games do it. Halo 2 was doing that in 2004.

2. Whether it's 18 years old or not is irrelevant. It should've been obvious after Unreal that double-tapping a key is a silly idea.
UT4 was cancelled years ago and was left very unfinished.

3. No. Once you're sent flying by a Shock Rifle, holding forward does extremely little to decrease your momentum. Any and all movement incurred from being hit offsets aim, too. While it's low-gravity and so the problem is greatly accentuated, UT99's Morphius is a great example of why it's such a silly concept. If there were a dedicated weapon with the ability to send players flying I'd understand, but every gun does it to varying degrees. Even a steady stream of Link Gun can prevent you from dodging.

4. But it severely decreases the emphasis that all arena shooters have of using the correct weapon for the correct scenario. Not being able to swap fast means people stick to Lightning Guns and Shock Rifles regardless of range, negating the entire purpose of things like the Flak Cannon and Rocket Launcher. In a game with such fast movement, the difference between someone being in range for a weapon and out can happen with a second, and so not being able to swap as fast to compensate and make use of the intended purposes of these weapons makes no sense to me.

5. Play on Godlike and tell me it's over-powered. Maybe in online play it is and against easier bots, but they literally fully dodge out of the way within a range where you could reach out and touch them. I don't see how that could possibly be conceived as over-powered when its role as a shotgun is destroyed by the fact that at even point blank ranges, enemies can effortlessly move out of its way.

6. Really? In UT3 and UT99, sure, but in UT2K4 anything that isn't a hit-scan weapon is severely under-powered because enemies are lightning fast and chain together dodge combos in mili-seconds. I'm starting to get the impression that you don't play on Godlike. Try and use an Assault Rifle, Link Gun, Flak Cannon or Rocket Launcher as intended and then tell me how you go when you use a Shock Rifle, Minigun or Lightning Gun instead.

7. Good.

8. Sure it is, but I variety is the spice of life, and bad map design is a valid complaint.

9. I find Masterful a tad too easy.

I'm aware, but my point is that they never improved. Outside of providing more content, the biggest draw of a sequel is to fix issues present in the prior game. In the 8 years that Unreal Tournament was around (UT4 besides), they never truly fixed these issues. Fixing gameplay and design issues is theoretically even easier than expanding gameplay and content, so it staggers me that they made exceptionally few refinements on the gameplay.
Thank you for your respectful reply even though we may not agree. It's a refreshing attitude on Steam. I hope I also haven't come across as hostile with any comment.

[EliteSarge]

Interesting read. Disagree on all. I'm not gonna go point by point. Just a few snippets.

Many people consider UT2k4 their favorite because of how it was back during when its popularity was at its peak and the player count was very high. All of the mods, skin packs, custom maps and thousands of people of varying skill levels and so much more contributed to this. From what I've read is that all your points seem to stem from the fact you never played against real people or got to experience how it was when it was popular. Trying to now well.... only the hardcore remain and the experience wouldn't be the same.

Hit scan weapons, while being objectively better then some weapons, doesn't mean anything if you can't aim to take advantage of their power. Which is where weapons like the Flak Cannon come into play or any weapon that can do splash damage. More often then not, you'd run into people who were lousy aimers back then and some good. People used all of the weapons to great success.

Also, Godlike bots are cheaters. You need to realize thats how people did their AI back then. Some still do. They gave them cheating like abilities/reflexes. At that kind of difficulty, they were made to cheat which is why only the crazy people go Godlike.

[ELITE TACO]

It's 2022.... Play an invasion server and stfu.

[max]

Not sure how godlike bots cheat. I found them trivial in classical modes, when compared to human non beginner players. I remember taking Malcolm, put him on godlike, and even manually cranked up his settings, and even then I'd beat him 50-0 in a duel without breaking much sweat. It was all about map control, and it didn't feel as if the bot cheated.
However, for some reason, bots in the campaign are significantly better. I never figured out why, and honestly never bothered too much with the campaign.

Yeah, lg and sr are superior weapons to anything else (in most situations). However, it's not true that flak is not useful. The ballistic shot is always useful when you don't have los, and easier to get right than shock combo in many cases (except for low ceiling). Primary of flak is also useful, but requires pre-planning, you need to switch to it as you're about to come out into los in a short distance fight. Never do it after you're in los, it's a death sentence.
Link secondary is very strong, but needs good aim. And if you link into a teammate, then it's crazy op. If godlike bots or good players use it, then immediately break los or you're toast.
Rest of weapons are situational at best, including the mini, which realistic use boils down to finishing low hp people.

Dodging mid-fight against good human players is a great way to receive a headshot, especially dodging from walls, because your motion gets a predictable arc. Just stay on the ground and move around (somewhat randomly), works better and simpler to execute. Wall dodging is ok to reach some places on the map, but it always leaves you exposed. I always preferred shield gun boost for that.
Because of its predictability, I always found the aspect of dodging in ut awkward at best. q3a got the movement concept better, no dodging is necessary.

[midori]

ok, and?
jokes aside, you have some decent points, but it can all be dismissed with a simple "it's a game from 2004. It's old enough to drive, drink and vote." Either get modding tools to fix your issues or rant and be laughed at.
The AI was worse in Unreal Tournament 3, to be honest. Your Teammates will stand still despite the "attack" order while the enemies will track you from the walls. I heard it was due to some nerf, but that must've been some nerf.
also "Flak not being useful", are you high?
Also you speak of Godlike, you do know that Godlike was meant to be like a joke difficulty, right? Like Doom's nightmare.

[Mothvibe]

I agree with all your points, but saying the Unreal Tournament series is 'exceptionally' flawed is pure hyperbole.

These kind of flaws are (still) quite common across the board, from indie titles to so-called Triple-A games.

If anything, these kind of flaws are the standard - not the exception. However, that's more of a statement on the industry as a whole than it is on UT2K4 etc.

That aside, I agree very much with your views on double-tap to dodge - especially when the adrenaline system is *also* tied to multi-taps.

I like it much better when games give us a dodge button to press while we're already moving (i.e. tap shift to dodge etc.).

[HackySac]

Sounds like most of you have never played with the Multidodge mod before... With that mod you are able to dodge back n forth just as fast as the bots do. As for the rest of the so called "flaws" the issues you are stating about the spawn points and the weapons are mostly due to the fact that you have no tactics when it comes to weapons fighting or spawn point practice to teach yourself how to get back into position from each spawn point after you are killed. Flak, Bio, Rockets, Link weapons are close range weapons or for maps that have narrow hallways or small rooms to fight in, The Hit scan weapons are for big rooms and open areas to fight with. I been running a UT2k4 server for many years and this rant post on here sounds more noobish then anything else, I play against 2 godlike bots in IG BR and Leviathan DM all the time with no real issues , sometimes they can spawn kill me a number of times over but I do hold my ground with them for the most part. Please dont put down this game just because you're slacking on gameplay especially if its bots that you are slacking against. If you are having trouble moving, aiming, or keeping up with players while in game just ask for help or advice from someone, there are so few players left in 2k4 that anyone who is good in the game would rather help/assist someone slacking then to lose another player from the game entirely. If you need help on the issues you have stated here contact me and I can assist you in fixing those "Flaws" that you are having and get you back on board with ut2k4 community.....

HackySac